Zeolite + Carbon

[Miami Reef]

1 L of zeolites/400 L tank water. Change every 6-8 weeks.

I can’t imagine it having much effect besides for a place for bacteria to grow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not sure I get that.
It is interesting to know your opinion on phosphate removal by zeolites. There were some papers (wastewater treatment related) stating zeolites can remove maximum 0.03 mg phosphorus per 1 gram zeolite which is not big deal but still something.

I'm skeptical that any useful amount of phosphate binding takes place. I'd change my mind if there was convincing data, but the fact that KZ has been pushing zeolites for many years and I've never seen any data for either ammonia or phosphate binding in a seawater scenario enhances my natural skepticism. Some of their (or perhaps their users, I don't recall who started this idea)) initial claims about it were not sensible, such as ammonia being attracted to it and then locally taken up by bacteria also enhanced my skepticism).

There are plenty of papers in the literature where folks are trying to make zeolites that bind both ammonium and phosphate. They typically are looking at higher N and P levels than present in reef aquaria (the paper below is looking at hundreds of ppm ammonia and tens to hundreds of ppm phosphate), and often have little in the way of other competing ions (e.g., 10,000 ppm sodium, 400 ppm calcium, 1300 ppm magnesium, etc.) present in their studies, but still they find that they have to modify the zeolite (often clinoptilolite) with GFO or calcium to make it do much for phosphate.

here's an example:

Evaluating the use of chemically modified clinoptilolite zeolite for the simultaneous recovery of ammonium and phosphate from blackwater

Natural clinoptilolite zeolite (CZ) was chemically modified with sodium (Na), calcium (Ca), or magnesium (Mg) to recover ammonium and phosphate from simulated blackwater. Chemical modification of CZ with Na, Ca, and Mg was able to increase the mass of each metal by a factor of 2.2, 2.7, and 1.8...

pubs.rsc.org

 

[biom]

But is that a benefit? And does it bind even at the very low levels of ammonia typically present?

Any a capacity note, do you know how much zeolite is added how often, and has anyone calculated if the capacity at some low level of ammonia in seawater provides a meaningful effect?

Yes, I believe removal of some of the ammonium from tank water could be a benefit.

KZ recommend 1L per 400L tank water but from my experience it varies from tank to tank. I have used less (half of that if I recall correctly, it was more than 10 years ago) but have change it more frequently - every month I think instead of every 2-3 months.
I am sceptical zeolites can offer much of surface for the bacteria to grow, at least not much more than "normal" reef rock with the same size will offer. They are basically quite big chunks of rock and their pores are too small for bacteria to penetrate deep. Can not be compared with biomedias like Siporax.

Here is a picture of KZ Zeolites just to have impression of the size compared to my PC keyboard it is a 1 L bag

I can confirm after about 2-3 months zeolites somehow "stopping working" and nitrates starting to slowly rise. That could not be explained if they are just surface media. If it is like that they will offer the same surface for much longer time. It is actually the opposite If biomedia like siporax is used they start working much slower and can be used for years.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I believe removal of some of the ammonium from tank water could be a benefit.

KZ recommend 1L per 400L tank water but from my experience it varies from tank to tank. I have used less (half of that if I recall correctly, it was more than 10 years ago) but have change it more frequently - every month I think instead of every 2-3 months.
I am sceptical zeolites can offer much of surface for the bacteria to grow, at least not much more than "normal" reef rock with the same size will offer. They are basically quite big chunks of rock and their pores are too small for bacteria to penetrate deep. Can not be compared with biomedias like Siporax.

Here is a picture of KZ Zeolites just to have impression of the size compared to my PC keyboard it is a 1 L bag

I can confirm after about 2-3 months zeolites somehow "stopping working" and nitrates starting to slowly rise. That could not be explained if they are just surface media. If it is like that they will offer the same surface for much longer time. It is actually the opposite If biomedia like siporax is used they start working much slower and can be used for years.

My basis for the bacteria claim is this:

" One thing that makes zeolite reactors uniquely different from other commonly used reactors is that they include a handle, allowing the aquarist to pump, or shake, the media. This shaking is done for several minutes daily, releasing the build-up of bacterial slime, which cleans the stones and provides food for corals."

"When you combine that with zeolite’s micro-porous structure, you have an ideal habitat for anaerobic bacteria, making the media ideal for ridding your tank of unwanted compounds. Implementing zeolite in a low flow reactor can strip nitrate and phosphate out of the reef environment so quickly, that it can shock corals to the point of inducing rapid tissue narcosis."



While that article also proposes things that I do not believe are accurate about zeolites, I certainly expect folks do get the bacterial growth on them, and I agree not in the fine pores. .

Zeolite in the reef aquarium

The term zeovit reactor is making its rounds on the aquarium forums and in fish store chatter more and more these days. To help clear any confusion, zeovit refe

reefs.com

 

[biom]

While that article also proposes things that I do not believe are accurate about zeolites, I certainly expect folks do get the bacterial growth on them, and I agree not in the fine pores. .

Zeolite in the reef aquarium

The term zeovit reactor is making its rounds on the aquarium forums and in fish store chatter more and more these days. To help clear any confusion, zeovit refe

reefs.com

I certainly agree there will be bacterial growth on them (I've seen it) I am still remember everyday shaking of stones and I think they are excellent media for microorganisms.
But I am not convinced that 1 L of relatively large stones could offer big enough surface for bacteria to keep ammonium and respectively nitrate to undetectable levels in 100 gal normally fed tank with fish for 1-2 months. And I can ensure you from my experience zeolites can do that. Pretty sure 1L of normal reef rock with similar size and surface area will not. So there should be something else besides surface area that help zeolites reducing ammonium/nitrate leves and because there is scientific data that confirms zeolites can remove ammonium in seawater I assume they actually do this in our tanks too. That is my simple philosophy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I certainly agree there will be bacterial growth on them (I've seen it) I am still remember everyday shaking of stones and I think they are excellent media for microorganisms.
But I am not convinced that 1 L of relatively large stones could offer big enough surface for bacteria to keep ammonium and respectively nitrate to undetectable levels in 100 gal normally fed tank with fish for 1-2 months. And I can ensure you from my experience zeolites can do that. Pretty sure 1L of normal reef rock with similar size and surface area will not. So there should be something else besides surface area that help zeolites reducing ammonium/nitrate leves and because there is scientific data that confirms zeolites can remove ammonium in seawater I assume they actually do this in our tanks too. That is my simple philosophy.

I don't doubt they remove some ammonia.

 

[Pod_01]

So just to add my observation, let’s state up front these are observations not verified science based facts.
I used Zeolite for about 2 years and it definitely did not seem to impact PO4 or NO3 in any meaningful way.
I believe it helps to remove some trace elements like Iron , Zinc, Molybdenum maybe others and my ICP results seem to confirm this. The values were ok, did zeolite do it or something else I don’t know.
Zeolite did seem to release some elements like Ba (I might be wrong) and something else. I believe these very picket up by ICP but it might have been the dust because I did not wash the Zeolite enough. Likely it was just inert trace.
I hope this confused everyone lol.

 

[biom]

I don't doubt they remove some ammonia.

So you agree they remove some ammonia, I agree they provide some surface for bacteria. I think this is good achievement after 20 years of discussions.

Now we should find out which "some" is more. Let see what 2053 will bring )))

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you agree they remove some ammonia, I agree they provide some surface for bacteria. I think this is good achievement after 20 years of discussions.

Now we should find out which "some" is more. Let see what 2053 will bring )))

lol

I think that is when the asterdoid hits earth.

 

[biom]

lol

I think that is when the asterdoid hits earth.

lol

This will be the second one, first one hitted the Earth some 60 mln years ago when this zeolite discussion started

 

[shadyraro]

Sometimes I think I’m too dumb for this hobby!

 

[biom]

Sometimes I think I’m too dumb for this hobby!

Iol Actually one of the best natural looking reefs I have seen in person belonged to a man who I am sure never heard of zeolite and looked so bored and not interested when I was trying to explain him how bacteria in his tank are working . (but he was very polite and didn’t tell me he don’t care

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Do you think zeolites mainly work by denitrification to keep nitrates low?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Do you think zeolites mainly work by denitrification to keep nitrates low?

The actual pores inside it are sized to bind ions inside them by a “tight fit”. Much too small for bacteria to enter. So no denitrification inside the pores.

Can low O2 regions exist in biofilms on the zeolite surface? Maybe, but then the exact nature of the zeolite would not be critical.

 

[Miami Reef]

The actual pores inside it are sized to bind ions inside them by a “tight fit”. Much too small for bacteria to enter. So no denitrification inside the pores.

Can low O2 regions exist in biofilms on the zeolite surface? Maybe, but then the exact nature of the zeolite would not be critical.

Perfect. I wanted to add denitrification media to my tank. @Roberto Denadai almost always used seachem matrix with no issues to his tank. He always got unreadable nitrates, too. It was apparently very effective in lowering nitrates without carbon dosing for him.

I have some rocks in my tank, but I probably don’t have enough. I’m going to get some seachem matrix. My only concern was it potentially releasing some aluminum. I don’t think it will be an issue, because it never was an issue for any of Roberto’s amazing displays.

I don’t want to use acetate because it can potentially darken corals. And vodka can potentially feed cyano. I don’t have a cyano problem, but I like to prevent issues before they arise.

Any foreseeable issues? I want my tank to emulate Roberto’s.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d just rinse the matrix well before adding it. Let us know how it works out!

 

[Miami Reef]

I’d just rinse the matrix well before adding it. Let us know how it works out!

Thank you so much! I definitely will. I took my nitrate to “clear” on a salifert kit with vodka (same test and level as Roberto) and it rose to 0.5ppm the next day. Nitrogen starvation isn’t really an issue for me because I am observant and watch my tank multiple times a day.

But nitrate tends to rise quick in my tank, is what I’m trying to say. I’ll keep you updated for sure.

 

[Miami Reef]

I’d just rinse the matrix well before adding it. Let us know how it works out!

I haven’t seen any benefit in nitrate management since adding Seachem Matrix media. I added a total of 10lbs of the media to my tank.

 

[Troylee]

I don’t know exactly what zeolites do besides culture bacteria in the reactor! I can tell you it works great for that and when I shake and pump my reactor it clouds my tank and my sps go into feeding mode! I use half of the zeolites my tank reccomends cause it’s all that fits in my reactor, but I love what I see from them! My nutrients stay low also after feeding and having tons of fish! I’m not ulns but I’m low! Nitrates around 6-8 and po4 is zero to 0.037 that’s 24 hours after a large dosing of reef roids and coral aminos.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Thanks, these are my parameters from yesterday. I also run activated carbon in a small reactor, tank is 65g.

What App do you use for these readings? I like this.