Zero nitrate, 0.2 phosphate

[jda]

Done:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

That is some fast work! Did you have ChatReefPT write that for you? Well done.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That is some fast work! Did you have ChatReefPT write that for you? Well done.

Yes, I got the upgraded version that gives right answers at least half of the time. lol

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

Relax and don't stress too much over nitrate. Richard Ross' tank had 40-100+ ppm nitrate and would be the envy of many folks:

"Current numbers
Phosphate - .72
Nitrate - 75"

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rich-ross-home-tank-guess-the-phosphate.296635/

Randy, could this be an example of "it works for me", though? Borneman references studies that show high nitrates causes reduced photo-synthesis rates and decreased skeletogenesis (Aquarium Corals, pg 345). He even states that some studies show 40ppm has a toxic effect on corals.

I don't know if these studies are still relevant as the most recent is Davies 1996. I am wondering if this book is dated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, could this be an example of "it works for me", though? Borneman references studies that show high nitrates causes reduced photo-synthesis rates and decreased skeletogenesis (Aquarium Corals, pg 345). He even states that some studies show 40ppm has a toxic effect on corals.

I don't know if these studies are still relevant as the most recent is Davies 1996. I am wondering if this book is dated.

Anything from Eric is old, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Lots of my stuff is even older. lol

Yes, it falls into the "it works for me", but it also perhaps shows a disconnect between keeping a great reef tank that most hobbyists would be proud of vs a focus on biochemical phenomena that may actually not be something that most reefers care about.

I don't know if those papers apply to any given reef aquarium scenario, but if they do, do you care if photosynthesis and skeletogenesis are slower that they might be in some other reefkeeping scenario?

If you do, then perhaps focusing on ALL of the things that maximize photosynthesis and skeletal growth may be well worth the effort. High pH, high alk, high light, nutrient levels, calcium levels, etc. Some folks do that. Many do not. Such factors may be much more important to a coral farmer than to a reefer with a tank in his living room, where other factors, such as color, cost, ease of maintenance, etc may be more important.

FWIW, I'm certainly not making a claim that nitrate is unimportant, nor that high nitrate may not do what is claimed in some of those papers. That said, I don't think I'm ignoring any factual reality when I say that keeping a great reef tank does not require a low nitrate level, and to say otherwise may, in fact, be ignoring the reality of tanks like Richard's.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

Anything from Eric is old, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Lots of my stuff is even older. lol

Yes, it falls into the "it works for me", but it also perhaps shows a disconnect between keeping a great reef tank that most hobbyists would be proud of vs a focus on biochemical phenomena that may actually not be something that most reefers care about.

I don't know if those papers apply to any given reef aquarium scenario, but if they do, do you care if photosynthesis and skeletogenesis are slower that they might be in some other reefkeeping scenario?

If you do, then perhaps focusing on ALL of the things that maximize photosynthesis and skeletal growth may be well worth the effort. High pH, high alk, high light, nutrient levels, calcium levels, etc. Some folks do that. Many do not. Such factors may be much more important to a coral farmer than to a reefer with a tank in his living room, where other factors, such as color, cost, ease of maintenance, etc may be more important.

FWIW, I'm certainly not making a claim that nitrate is unimportant, nor that high nitrate may not do what is claimed in some of those papers. That said, I don't think I'm ignoring any factual reality when I say that keeping a great reef tank does not require a low nitrate level, and to say otherwise may, in fact, be ignoring the reality of tanks like Richard's.

Well said! Thank you.

 

[biom]

Some good reading about Nitrogen cycling in corals, covering most of the questions here. There is short video at the end also.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0966842X1500075X#bib0775

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you guys so much! I feel much better about nitrate now.

I’m targeting nitrate 5-10ppm and phosphates 0.10ppm to 0.20ppm.

I like those levels, I think.

 

[Fishy888]

Remember, a tank is considered cycled (aka, has a sufficient amount of nitrifying bacteria for the bioload) when it can process 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Adding small amounts of ammonia rather than nitrate - when the goal is feeding coral- is FINE.

How does one even calculate how much ammonia to dose when the amount of fish and coral very even in same sized tanks? I’ve considered ammonia dosing in the past but I need to know I won’t kill fish and inverts first.

I’ve hit zero nitrates before and ended up with dinos. Recently I hit zero nitrates again and ended up with bleaching corals. As soon as I added some nitrates back my corals came back from the brink. To increase the nitrates I upped the food allotment a bit. I wonder now if it was an ammonia shortage now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How does one even calculate how much ammonia to dose when the amount of fish and coral very even in same sized tanks? I’ve considered ammonia dosing in the past but I need to know I won’t kill fish and inverts first.

I’ve hit zero nitrates before and ended up with dinos. Recently I hit zero nitrates again and ended up with bleaching corals. As soon as I added some nitrates back my corals came back from the brink. To increase the nitrates I upped the food allotment a bit. I wonder now if it was an ammonia shortage now.

Check the linked DIY ammonia thread above. :)

 

[Fishy888]

Check the linked DIY ammonia thread above. :)

Sorry I should have read to the end of the thread first but thank you. lol

 

[jda]

Some good reading about Nitrogen cycling in corals, covering most of the questions here. There is short video at the end also.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0966842X1500075X#bib0775

I need to read this like 3 more times, but did they say in there that the coral can self regulate an environment where less nitrogen is in the holobiont than outside of it, if necessary?

 

[biom]

I need to read this like 3 more times, but did they say in there that the coral can self regulate an environment where less nitrogen is in the holobiont than outside of it, if necessary?

Тo a certain extent yes, the coral can control nitrogen availability to zoox. And it can be the one of the ways coral controlling zoox number by starving them with nitrogen.

In natural reef conditions coral (the polyp) can ensure zoox with 100% of nitrogen needed in form of ammonium produced as waste from feeding on plankton and even there is excess of ammonia which is oxidized by other bacterial coral symbionts to nitrate. And this way coral dont need in/organic nitrogen in surrounding water it actually excrete nitrogen in the surrounding waters in form of nitrate. (Which is quite funny because in artificial conditions in our tanks we are dosing something that in naturals conditions is final waste product of coral:))

But in aquarium conditions SPS coral (the polyp) is often starving because there is almost no big enough plankton to feed on and the coral depends almost entirely on in/organic nitrogen in the water.

 

[Icryhard]

I tested with the HR Hannah checker. I can check again to confirm but I’m confident in my methodology.

I assume you have a HR Hanna Checker (HR) and not a LR or ULR? If so, the margin of error is about 0.2 with the HR. Could you test it three times back to back with the same vial and test (do not mix a new reagant) and take an average? I doubt it would bottom out three times on 0.

 

[jda]

Тo a certain extent yes, the coral can control nitrogen availability to zoox. And it can be the one of the ways coral controlling zoox number by starving them with nitrogen.

In natural reef conditions coral (the polyp) can ensure zoox with 100% of nitrogen needed in form of ammonium produced as waste from feeding on plankton and even there is excess of ammonia which is oxidized by other bacterial coral symbionts to nitrate. And this way coral dont need in/organic nitrogen in surrounding water it actually excrete nitrogen in the surrounding waters in form of nitrate. (Which is quite funny because in artificial conditions in our tanks we are dosing something that in naturals conditions is final waste product of coral:))

But in aquarium conditions SPS coral (the polyp) is often starving because there is almost no big enough plankton to feed on and the coral depends almost entirely on in/organic nitrogen in the water.

Polyp eating is too dependent on type of "coral" for them to generalize like this. Some true coral have no ability to process nearly anything that is caught in their polyps while some can get quite a bit, and the rates of cost/benefit also vary greatly.

All true coral can utilize microscopic things caught in their slime coats. This requires little energy and assimilation is nearly total. This happens in our tanks with waterborne bacteria, protozoa or whatever else might be in there. Tanks must be mature for these things to exist in abundance. However, the math is against smaller corals who lose a surface area battle with substrate, glass walls, substrate and filters. Aminos work the same way, from what I have read, only it is more likely that the waterborne microfauna get most of it first and then the slime coats get them.

I had read a few decades ago that hosts can recycle their building blocks, which is why it is so catastrophic when corals have to dump their zoox since it took a lifetime for them to accumulate this stuff. I had been unable to find where I read this for a long time, but this article will do now.

Any updates from them? This was 2015.