^^ This sounds very much like velvet. With ich, the number of white spots are usually quantifiable.
Either way, this protocol treats both ich and velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437
Purple tang with ich (plz help)
- Thread starter Miguel a Villalobos
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^^ This sounds very much like velvet. With ich, the number of white spots are usually quantifiable.
Either way, this protocol treats both ich and velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437
Copper kills the ich and velvet parasites. Dead - though it can only do so during the phase of their lifecycle when they are hunting fish to feed on. Starvation (which, for ich, takes 76 days with no fish host available to the parasite - six weeks for velvet) kills Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and Amyloodinium ocellatum (velvet) as dead as it would kill you or I. These diseases are living creatures, not magical, all-powerful, everlasting beings from some science-fiction universe. Salamanders aren't born in fire - we know that now. Young mice don't magically appear in boxes filled with rags - and ich _can_ be eradicated from aquarium systems, using techniques that have been well-understood for decades, but which take some extra effort from aquarists. A fallow display tank and copper treatment in a quarantine have _eliminated_ both ich and velvet from many, many systems. (From what I'm told - and have to some extent experienced - is that if you want to put your system to the test ... add one Achilles tang . . . )
You've seen wrasses and shrimp picking at the skin of infected fish. Have you subsequently determined that the wrasse or shrimp consumed the actual parasite? The parasite burrows deeply, but the cleaners pick at the surface. I won't again consider using a cleaner fish to try to eliminate ich, as during my initial encounter with the disease, my neon goby cleanerfish died of ich . . .
~Bruce
There's a lot of logic in what @mcarroll is saying. Feed the fish live or non-processed foods. Probiotics, nutritious, protein rich, carotenoids, vitamin enriched are all good things whether a fish is sick or healthy. The same is also applicable to the human diet. 
But those things, in and of itself, are not gonna save a sick fish being eaten alive by parasites, worms or harmful bacteria. Not in a closed environment anyway. Maybe in the vastness of the ocean, where a gazillion gallons of water dilute those diseases from the fish. A healthy immune system can keep up with that, but older fish or ones with an unhealthy immune system still succumb in the wild. Cycle of life - they become food for larger, stronger, healthier fish. In our relatively small aquariums, fish are often overwhelmed by a much higher concentration of parasites, worms and harmful bacteria.
But those things, in and of itself, are not gonna save a sick fish being eaten alive by parasites, worms or harmful bacteria. Not in a closed environment anyway. Maybe in the vastness of the ocean, where a gazillion gallons of water dilute those diseases from the fish. A healthy immune system can keep up with that, but older fish or ones with an unhealthy immune system still succumb in the wild. Cycle of life - they become food for larger, stronger, healthier fish. In our relatively small aquariums, fish are often overwhelmed by a much higher concentration of parasites, worms and harmful bacteria.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
+1There's a lot of logic in what @mcarroll is saying. Feed the fish live or non-processed foods. Probiotics, nutritious, protein rich, carotenoids, vitamin enriched are all good things whether a fish is sick or healthy. The same is also applicable to the human diet.
But those things, in and of itself, are not gonna save a sick fish being eaten alive by parasites, worms or harmful bacteria. Not in a closed environment anyway. Maybe in the vastness of the ocean, where a gazillion gallons of water dilute those diseases from the fish. A healthy immune system can keep up with that, but older fish or ones with an unhealthy immune system still succumb in the wild. Cycle of life - they become food for larger, stronger, healthier fish. In our relatively small aquariums, fish are often overwhelmed by a much higher concentration of parasites, worms and harmful bacteria.
People often forget many of the other things PaulB does with his system. He purposely introduces parasites on a regular basis. If fish aren't exposed to a parasite for 6 months they lose their immunity to it. He also runs ozone through his skimmer which will kill any parasites that take that path. He also credits his reverse flow undergravel filter with keeping his parasite level down (I'm not convinced but it has been in service for as long as I've been alive so...) What PaulB does is remarkable but it is also a complete method. High quality feed is only one part of his method. Did I mention that a few times a year he takes muck straight from the ocean next to his house and adds it to his fuge?
mcarroll
10K Club member
If you read Paul's threads as I suggested, you realize all of those things and quite a bit more.
That's why I suggested reading them.
It will give you a perspective on what's possible and how wrong the typical methods are. It's wrong to think you'd have to emulate everything he does.
And the summary version always sounds nutty coming from you guys.
BTW, if you've never saved a fish with good feeding and healthy, low-stress living conditions, you're missing out BIG TIME. It's almost the only "method" I've used – even in a retail setting. Losses were consistently low and almost always related to a compromised bag during shipping, very rarely due to presentation of an illness during QT. I had none of Paul's methods available to me....just normal frozen foods (mostly whole-frozen mysis, krill and Rod's Food) with added AminOmega or Selcon along with a quality QT environment. Generally, that meant a tank no smaller than 30 Long, more often it meant a 50 gallon. A few small fish were QT'd in 15 gallon tanks.
I try to relate what has worked for me while keeping in mind that I still have a lot to learn.
Meds are important, as is their proper use. But "some people" tend to forget all the other things that go into recovery and into keeping fish healthy in the first place.
For what it's worth, you can pick and choose what parts of Paul's scheme you want to emulate.....he's consolidated the best parts into his book. He's put some parts of that online at saltwatersmarts' blog....check out his entries here:
Paul Baldassano
Feeding live foods (or as close as possible to live) is a huge part of it. So is feeding very regularly.
The core of his "system" is not exotic at all....to a large degree, he reefs out of a book published in 1954.
And that book wasn't all that far off from the original marine aquarium manual written in the 1850's. (Gosse)
What makes Paul's methods seem "exotic" is mostly just our perspective.
If you start hatching your own brine shrimp (which is easy) and keeping blackworms around (which is even easier), you're probably more than 50% there, for example.
These numbers get repeated like they are gospel.
Let's try to remember that they are not. They refer to specific strains of these pathogens under specific circumstances. We know there are exceptions.
To put it simply, there's no guarantee in either number. It's also nearly impossible to assure against other vectors for these pathogens. And what about other pathogens we don't yet know the magic numbers for?
It makes sense to take certain precautions, but there's only one answer for all those concerns...even after "cures" and "treatments" there's only one guarantee:
Healthy fish with healthy immune systems.
This means a lot more than exposure to natural seawater or specific pathogens....those ideas only refer to one aspect of immunity....let's not roll the conversation that far back.
If you must focus on only one aspect, focus on fish slime and what it takes to produce copious quantities of it loaded with the proper amounts of antimicrobials.
Here's an excellent local Reef2reef thread on the subject:
A discussion on immunity
And some other stuff if you can stand a little reading:
Fish Health Through Slime
Personal immunity versus social immunity
Immunological Control of Fish Diseases
Almost all of this has been gone over in detail in that Immunity thread....it's kinda long, so feel free to use the website's excellent search function to filter through it on specific terms to find a good starting place.
That's why I suggested reading them.
It will give you a perspective on what's possible and how wrong the typical methods are. It's wrong to think you'd have to emulate everything he does.
And the summary version always sounds nutty coming from you guys.
BTW, if you've never saved a fish with good feeding and healthy, low-stress living conditions, you're missing out BIG TIME. It's almost the only "method" I've used – even in a retail setting. Losses were consistently low and almost always related to a compromised bag during shipping, very rarely due to presentation of an illness during QT. I had none of Paul's methods available to me....just normal frozen foods (mostly whole-frozen mysis, krill and Rod's Food) with added AminOmega or Selcon along with a quality QT environment. Generally, that meant a tank no smaller than 30 Long, more often it meant a 50 gallon. A few small fish were QT'd in 15 gallon tanks.
I try to relate what has worked for me while keeping in mind that I still have a lot to learn.
Meds are important, as is their proper use. But "some people" tend to forget all the other things that go into recovery and into keeping fish healthy in the first place.
For what it's worth, you can pick and choose what parts of Paul's scheme you want to emulate.....he's consolidated the best parts into his book. He's put some parts of that online at saltwatersmarts' blog....check out his entries here:
Paul Baldassano
Feeding live foods (or as close as possible to live) is a huge part of it. So is feeding very regularly.
The core of his "system" is not exotic at all....to a large degree, he reefs out of a book published in 1954.
And that book wasn't all that far off from the original marine aquarium manual written in the 1850's. (Gosse)
What makes Paul's methods seem "exotic" is mostly just our perspective.
If you start hatching your own brine shrimp (which is easy) and keeping blackworms around (which is even easier), you're probably more than 50% there, for example.
These numbers get repeated like they are gospel.
Let's try to remember that they are not. They refer to specific strains of these pathogens under specific circumstances. We know there are exceptions.
To put it simply, there's no guarantee in either number. It's also nearly impossible to assure against other vectors for these pathogens. And what about other pathogens we don't yet know the magic numbers for?
It makes sense to take certain precautions, but there's only one answer for all those concerns...even after "cures" and "treatments" there's only one guarantee:
Healthy fish with healthy immune systems.
This means a lot more than exposure to natural seawater or specific pathogens....those ideas only refer to one aspect of immunity....let's not roll the conversation that far back.
If you must focus on only one aspect, focus on fish slime and what it takes to produce copious quantities of it loaded with the proper amounts of antimicrobials.
Here's an excellent local Reef2reef thread on the subject:
A discussion on immunity
And some other stuff if you can stand a little reading:
Fish Health Through Slime
Personal immunity versus social immunity
Immunological Control of Fish Diseases
Almost all of this has been gone over in detail in that Immunity thread....it's kinda long, so feel free to use the website's excellent search function to filter through it on specific terms to find a good starting place.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Mcarrol,
Last time we circled this wagon, we all realized that you nor Paul have tangs or angels, or otherwise fragile species. I'm sorry but this is a CRITICAL difference between most hobbyists and perhaps the most important fact when discussing viable methods for keeping fish. Livestock choice.
To reiterate, no one is saying those methods are not good. They're not mutually exclusive to proper prevention and treatment of fish in home aquaria. I think they pair rather nicely. It's reckless in my opinion to suggest to people that nutrition alone will cure disease or fight serious parasitic infections in a closed system. I do however think it's great advice to follow.
Last time we circled this wagon, we all realized that you nor Paul have tangs or angels, or otherwise fragile species. I'm sorry but this is a CRITICAL difference between most hobbyists and perhaps the most important fact when discussing viable methods for keeping fish. Livestock choice.
To reiterate, no one is saying those methods are not good. They're not mutually exclusive to proper prevention and treatment of fish in home aquaria. I think they pair rather nicely. It's reckless in my opinion to suggest to people that nutrition alone will cure disease or fight serious parasitic infections in a closed system. I do however think it's great advice to follow.
domination2580
Reef-a-nator
I agree with @4FordFamily but I do have to say nutrition alone should be a given. Not just when sickness or diseases occur but everyday....but I do agree also with nutrition yes keeps fish susceptible immune systems up to par but nutrition alone will NOT cure anything...it just helps prevent it from happening.
creektree
Active Member
This thread is a train wreck... you want to close your eyes though also want to see what happens next. I'd say quarantine first... though if its's too late for that, I agree quality food (no one has said nori or seaweed yet - talking a tang here), and stable parameters, can absolutely win an ick battle in a closed system. That said, maybe the ick stays in the system, yet the fishes defenses are too strong for the ich to resurface. I am talking many years of happy healthy fish.
In a full bore reef, getting all the fish out may be impossible, so if it is too late to quarantine... quality food, sufficient quantity, and consistent feeding can go a long way. That is also factoring in quality water conditions, flow, etc. Saying that a fish will Be unhappy for life because it had ich once, in a system where that fish could not be captured for removal, is incorrect. That said, preventative measures are always best.
In a full bore reef, getting all the fish out may be impossible, so if it is too late to quarantine... quality food, sufficient quantity, and consistent feeding can go a long way. That is also factoring in quality water conditions, flow, etc. Saying that a fish will Be unhappy for life because it had ich once, in a system where that fish could not be captured for removal, is incorrect. That said, preventative measures are always best.
domination2580
Reef-a-nator
Fishes defense can't defend the gills...
Reefltx
Valuable Member
Let us know, I bought a purple tang on Saturday and today he has velvet. I should've known something was up when I saw it swimming against the power head yesterday. Today, he's in bad shape, breaking out and breathing heavily. So, I did a 50% water change and dosed the QT with cupramine (half dosed). Hoping for the best.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Even worse, you would have to figure out exactly what it is that makes his system work! It might be easier to do everything he does!
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Again, op. If you have velvet (and my bet is you do) that fish is a goner most likely as we have spent too much time suggesting nutrition alone will fix an issue assuming it's minor ich. That doesn't always work on ich (often it does not) but it will not work at all for velvet and I think that's what you have. I know I'm being direct, but I want the casual reader to understand what's going on.
Here's is a guide of fish disease with pictures. Look at these
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/285708/
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Velvet has smaller spots and they're far more numerous. It also advances much, much faster. A fish covered in velvet will be fully infested fast. Often in very severe cases looking dusty. Fish with velvet tend to be more cryptic, hide from light, swim in to powerheads, discolor towards the end with gill damage, and die quickly. This is the most dangerous/deadly parasite in the hobby.
Ich is a larger white spot, far fewer. A fish is almost never "covered" in ich. It's still very deadly but much slower moving taking months sometimes to reach critical mass.
With both a fish will breathe heavily. Velvet is every bit as common as ich now.
Many mistake the two, some say they had a really bad ich infestation but in reality it was velvet. That was me for years. Now I can see the difference and I know the behaviors and progression.
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