The LFS redoux

[Marty.h]

Online in some cases is ran from warehouses so overheads are less compared to being on the highstreet or in the centre of a city.

About 10 odd years ago my friend who owned a large vehicle breakers yard open to the public ect did not do online sales I then went about getting him online built him a site with shopping cart facilities ect after 2 years of being online the sales online far outweighed the customers walking in. He decided to shut the gates on public walking in he could then drop his liability insurances ect so is overheads came down dramatically which put profits up.

I don't know what it's like in the US but city parking can be an absolute pain in the UK.

Here is a typical scenario you decide you want something so you jump in the car and drive to the city = fuel cost you then spend ages finding a parking space and another cost is the parking you then spend endless hour's looking round the shops for the item you want but can't find it it happens a lot so you go back to car and go home. Yes you had a day out its cist you fuel , parking charge the stress of trying to find what you after but no further forward.

The same scenario but looking online.

Sit cofortably in you chair turn on your laptop or phone ect and go to Google type in what you want and bingo there it is 10 seconds later and cheaper then the high street and also no fuel or parking expense or the trapesing round looking for what you want.

You click buy and it arrives on your door in some cases next day.


You have to ask yourself in the above situation what would you sooner do.......

 

[ReefCave]

Understood. Agreed. Remember though, to be competitive on line In today's state of this industry one must reduce margin to about nothing to keep competitive and not look bad to their customer. Back to the sale 1M but spend 1.2M.

FYI Amazon Prime has yet to profit. http://fortune.com/2015/02/03/inside-amazon-prime/

The answer is to support the profitable/MAP protected lines and bottom shelf or back room the rest if you feel you need it. Otherwise ditch it. Dont pitch it to your customers. When a sales rep comes to my store and shows me their latest product, the first thing I do is scan the product in google. Much more than not, I hand the product back to the rep and send them on their way and explain their MSRP means nothing to me based on Etailers pricing. The manufacturers have allowed companies such as Amazon to set the MSRP for them..and they don't care. The Manufacturer has either lost lost control of their product or not looking out for me the independents interest. Its not a partnership. Get those manufacturers out! Replace them with a solid business partnership. That has a equally good product.

I'm still curious about a good hobby exposure idea without the LFS. As everyone knows experiencing one in real life vs on a screen are two completely different animals....

 

[Marty.h]

The LFS does plant the seed seing a nice tank and it's a Wow factor. The problem is everyone wants something for nothing and want to pay as least as possible who doesn't.

The average independent is being strangled by chains and online sales I know that from when I was running the mail order department my company bought up all the competition to get the market monopoly so to speak.

Big organisations can afford to run at a loss or even a break even an independent can't and will have to shut the doors.

If independents where to get together and organise an event like different hobbys do here I don't know if they already do it in the US

Basically hire a venue and split costs between all the independent vendors don't invite chain groups you can then all have your own piece at the venue and plug your buisness offer a marine show with DT'S ect that way people can come and see what is on offer and be mezmarized by the stock.

 

[ReefCave]

The LFS does plant the seed seing a nice tank and it's a Wow factor. The problem is everyone wants something for nothing and want to pay as least as possible who doesn't.

The average independent is being strangled by chains and online sales I know that from when I was running the mail order department my company bought up all the competition to get the market monopoly so to speak.

Big organisations can afford to run at a loss or even a break even an independent can't and will have to shut the doors.

If independents where to get together and organise an event like different hobbys do here I don't know if they already do it in the US

Basically hire a venue and split costs between all the independent vendors don't invite chain groups you can then all have your own piece at the venue and plug your buisness offer a marine show with DT'S ect that way people can come and see what is on offer and be mezmarized by the stock.

Thank you! Please be sure your LFS sees this thread!

 

[Marty.h]

Mine is an independent I don't use chains they also do a lot of online sales and they look after me

 

[uniquecorals]

All really great ideas...And I think that there are numerous opportunities for savvy LFS's to collaborate with the so-called "garage propagators" (I call 'em "artisan propagators") and even established online vendors to work together to enhance offerings- for the benefit of all. Collectives, buying clubs, exclusive access...filling "hyper-niches" (don't start me on that one...), the previously discussed "kiosk" or "guide store" idea- all are on the table. Even in this day of online domination, people still like the "touch" factor...And again- regardless of what anyone says, it's also about brand building, creating a following by having a good relationship with- people.

You can tell me all about people wanting the cheapest, etc.- but at the end of the day, I know very few reefers that don't want to be able to talk to someone when something goes wrong, to ask questions- develop that rapport....price is just not absolutely everything with some products. Amazon is cooly efficient at a lot of things, but misses by a country mile on products that require "touch" or other real support. There are still opportunities to forge uncontested market space. Many ways to approach this.

Thanks for participating!

-Scott

 

[ReefCave]

Wow, I've really stuck my foot into it this time, huh? Shaking up the industry a bit? I know for a fact a lot of people will just hate me more for this. I could care less. The LFS is what built the hobby, and a newer, leaner, more creative LFS will keep it going into the future. Actually, it can benefit everyone! The online guys win, brick-and-mortar wins. They hobby wins. A new model for supply and distribution can emerge that can help everyone.

Love this! Im with ya Scott

 

[FX CharityCorals]

As I'm sure some LFS are on the cutting edge for innovation I still think you will see the industry contract as a lot of these stores are in markets that can't sustain them foot traffic wise. If they are online and doing decent business there why wouldn't they just close up shop and focus on the online aspect? I saw fewer and fewer young kids getting into the hobby while working. Many more of them would rather be playing mine craft. Yes some of them will venture in when they are older but I feel fewer and fewer are getting into the fish hobby.

Something I noticed that makes it hard for a LFS. So they sell a beginner setup to a new reefer. The equipment isn't the best but works for the situation. The new reefer comes online and tells a message board what they have and are ripped apart by other members that the LFS sold them junk and they can never have a successful tank. Well the easily impressionable reefer now has lost all faith in the LFS and will hardly shop there now because of the message board even though the store really didn't do anything wrong. They got the customer into a setup that fit their budget. I'm sure that store would have loved to sell a 10k system to them. So on one spectrum you are advocating we need to support LFS but on the flip side are just as quick to cut one down without really knowing the full story. You just hear the reefers side. I know there are some bad ones but I see good ones trashed just the same. A couple bad marks for a store online can really hurt business.

There are many different ways to have a successful reef tank. But so often the case online most posters think it's their way or no way.
Personally I think with all this new gadgets out it has made reefing more complicated and daunting. I feel for a lot not all reefers the tech is a shortcut to actually reading and learning about what really is going on in a tank and good husbandry skills. Plus it makes getting into reefing more expensive because new reefers are being told they need this otherwise don't bother.

Go back ten years to tank of the months. They are just as good if not better than ones of today.

Sorry for the diatribe

 

[Marty.h]

I agree with the above systems can be done on a budget and thrive easy. My dad's is a 190 just an external and internal filter and a powerhead with T5 lighting.

He runs no skimmer or no gizmo's he has mainly softies but some LPS and an anenomie. He uses the good old fashioned clean up and change water and his tank does really well no algae of any kind.

I also see your point about setting upto someone budget this was sometimes the case in the industry I was in they would have a budget and you would do your very best to accommodate all there needs for there budget.

But as we all know in some cases you get what you pay for but you do your very best to give them the best quality within there budget and in some cases the equipment can't cope it's not the LFS fault you did the best you could but as you pointed out they don't mention that in a forum post which is unjust on the LFS.

I can't comment on how the LFS's are in the US but here in the UK there is a lot of big chain ones the staff have very limited knowledge in some cases and in some cases still advise people to cycle a tank ect with fish in or sell fish that are not compatible with there size tank or incompatible with present stock and it often gets seen on the board.

Around me I have 4 LFS's and 3 are chains so I use the independent I may pay a bit more but the service is second to none they make me a cuppa and get to chat to other reffers this simply does not happen in the chains you are just seen as another customer and they want your money and not interested in a chat. I poped to my LFS today had a cuppa with them and a wander round whilst browsing and a chat they don't try and push products on you as I have found most chains do.

With regards to the above about LFS's my way I can only go of my own personal experience and I'm happy to pay extra to get a good service and not just another customer to put money in there till and I also now class them as good friends of mine.

 

[ReefCave]

Something I noticed that makes it hard for a LFS. So they sell a beginner setup to a new reefer. The equipment isn't the best but works for the situation. The new reefer comes online and tells a message board what they have and are ripped apart by other members that the LFS sold them junk and they can never have a successful tank. Well the easily impressionable reefer now has lost all faith in the LFS and will hardly shop there now because of the message board even though the store really didn't do anything wrong. They got the customer into a setup that fit their budget. I'm sure that store would have loved to sell a 10k system to them. So on one spectrum you are advocating we need to support LFS but on the flip side are just as quick to cut one down without really knowing the full story. You just hear the reefers side. I know there are some bad ones but I see good ones trashed just the same. A couple bad marks for a store online can really hurt business.

This is a big reality for the LFS.

 

[ReefCave]

As I'm sure some LFS are on the cutting edge for innovation I still think you will see the industry contract as a lot of these stores are in markets that can't sustain them foot traffic wise. If they are online and doing decent business there why wouldn't they just close up shop and focus on the online aspect? I saw fewer and fewer young kids getting into the

This and service I feel (but hope not) is the reality for the LFS. The LFS will be forced to adopt new ways of doing business. Hopefully the seed of the hobby somehow continues to be planted to sustain all that livestock out there.

 

[FX CharityCorals]

The trendline is not our friend guys.

Reef Aquarium
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=reef aquariums

A little steadier with Fish tank
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=fish tank

Reef Tank gets a little better response than Reef Aquarium
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=reef tank

Even Tanked is declining
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Tanked

Overall its either steady or declining.

 

[Marty.h]

The peak of marine fish keeping looking back was about the same time as the film finding nemo was released if you look at the dates is this a coincidence or not maybe a new nemo film is what is needed

 

[SCMatt]

Speaking of I believe another Finding Nemo is in the works. So we could see another surge.

Going back just a bit

I cannot agree more with every point in this statement. I will be the first person to admit the biggest failure in my personal business has been getting online. Its a completely different way of doing business, communicating, and selling. Its amazing how the past decade, online commerce has flipped retail on its face...in all categories. And its no secret the internet is not going away. What used to not be a trusted way of commerce (not that long ago) is now the way it is. Totally agree.

Whats unique in this industry however, unlike many others...is how one is introduced to the product. To the hobby.

For the industry to grow and move forward in a positive direction, without the LFS how is that introduction of new hobbyists problem solved?

I think it will solve itself honestly good or bad. Most of us don't want to see LFS go away all together, but most of us are of older generations....basically every generation but this current one. Kids these days go to the internet first, for everything. MTV and VH1 basically died due to youtube. You can find tutorials and information for just about anything online. Kids get phones at ridiculous ages now and come out of the womb knowing how to work an Ipad. I think the introduction will be made by simple internet searches and browsing social media. The LFS need to get online in some capacity, maybe not actual eCommerce, maybe not as a livestock dealer or a Marine Depot type of dry goods vendor, but having a presence in the digital space. Soon it will be the best or only way to reach these new reefers and maybe the only way to tempt them into the brick and mortar store. Why do car dealers always want you to come inside? Because they have a greater chance of making a sale if you go inside. Side note, apart from signing the final paperwork I basically bought my car online.

Be sure to connect and be involved with the local reef clubs. Can't tell you how many times I've seen animosity between the two groups before for whatever reason and it just baffles me. Or the LFS having a "sponsor" sub forum on the club forums and NEVER using it....what?? Why?? Again, its part of the digital space I'm talking about. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram (big one these days for the younger folks that have now migrated away from Facebook due to their parents using it), club forums, national forums, Youtube....so many platforms going unused. Best part for the LFS? THEY ARE FREE! You can even generate revenue through ad space on youtube. I just feel like the LFS need to own some sort of digital space in some capacity or they will crumble in time.

And you are right about price. It's the connections and service I'm most frustrated about LFS wise. I'd buy that coral you are hyping up LFS.....if I could see it. And I don't know about anyone else but I really haven't found a huge price difference with Amazon anymore. The savings come with Prime shipping but the prices seem fairly on par with other websites these days, its just becoming another vendor.

Keep in mind I'm mainly talking to the people who probably aren't reading this and will never read this because they aren't online in some way. I'm throwing my views out here as a frustrated customer who hopes for change in the LFS and hopes to see them as part of this hobby going forward.

 

[BaritoneJP]

I just wanted to share an experience at a LFS, nothing more, just to share.

I went to this LFS because it was the last store I've not been to in my area (across town, no where near my normal commute.) Yes, I had heard about this store and mostly what was said was true. I will not go into that because I'm just sharing the experience. The store is stuck in time it seems. The product on the self may be as old as I am (it seems). More realistically and evidence based, most test kits that I saw were in faded boxes that had old (popular brand) logos/designs with "best used by" dates long since expired. The same goes for some of the food as well. After walking around and looking at their livestock tanks (aiptasia clearly visible) and seeing one fish with bad fin rot -- I finally talked with (what I assumed was) the proprietor. Extremely pleasant to talk to, knowledgeable, not 'sales-pitched' driven, just plain nice. We talked about the topic that I came into the store with, feeding a dwarf pygmy angelfish, and after talking about different solutions and product, he GAVE me a sample of 'said product' then said, "if this works, you can get more." I assume he meant, you can get more here, but he didn't say that.

While I wasn't impressed with the store, I am super impressed with the person in the store. I would go back and buy from them (checking 'use by' dates first) simply because of the person.