The LFS redoux

[BaritoneJP]

A thought from a guy who just got into the hobby.

One of the first things that I thought about when wanting to have a saltwater tank was sourcing livestock and dry goods (tanks, equipment, etc. as well). I found out, that in my area, there are three stores. As I started meeting and talking to local people who have tanks, soon, word of mouth about each of those three stores gave me the distinct idea that, 'I don't want to use them.' I did anyway. Why, the whole thing about ... I want to touch, see, learn about product and livestock. (not that I go around to LFS touching fish) But you understand. Sadly, I found that everything that I had heard was at least half true if not fully true. So, I turned to the internet. And Wow! I can do this. That fish (or what ever) isn't that bad ... but wait. View Cart. WHAT !! I have to pay 50 bucks to get a 12 dollar fish??!! So, back to the LFS. You want me to pay 20 for what I know I can get for 12? Twenty is a lot less than 62 (online price after shipping) so ... ugh! OK.

Now, talk about food, bacteria in a bottle, other things that are not wet. With waders strapped on, you wade through all the LFS advice about, "well, don't do it like that, you need this, you need that, why do you want to do it like that, don't believe what you read on the internet ... " You see the sales pitch from a mile away. All I wanted to do was leave and go to ~smart pet~ (reverse that) and get a 10 gal tank, fill it with fresh water and few fish and call it a day. (they know nothing about fish either ... I mean the adopt a cat location is right next to the fish tanks, really?)

Oh to find a good LFS. Again, with all that said, and yes, it does bash on the local guy who built the brick and mortar ... I don't think their intention was or is to be rude. I have no idea the mile they just walked prior to my ringing the bell entering the front door. I was just looking for someone with a smile on their face who would listen to me and then talk (even if it was a sales pitch.)

With all the social media and even the whole of the internet changing business models, not just for the aquarium world, the case is not closed yet. There has not been a "this is the way", or "this is now the new business model" decided. What I have seen successful people do is, dip their toe in all of the water. (pun intended) Look at every method, every way, from forums, local shows, regional get togethers, my-twit-face, to what ever technology tomorrow holds and view it as a probable way to have a business model. Then they do ... (implied action)

I love the kiosk idea, and if suppliers can't see that as a revenue source, then with time, they will not be the supplier anymore. You know, when then the power goes out and pump shuts off, water will self-level.

Anywho, my two-cents...

 

[uniquecorals]

This trend in aquaculturing is growing and I think it's great. That being said it certainly opens new doors for the lfs.

I'm hoping gone are the days where the lfs get a colony in and it never manages to survive in anyone's tank let alone there's.

I'm looking forward to the stores that can order frags just like fish. Tank raised and hearty.

Man if I could only win the lottery I could be enjoying what I do in life and not be jealous of the Scott's and Adams of this world getting to be in the aquarium trade and enjoying it!

I know I can get there myself and someday I will!

Great points...

And honestly, you won't need to win the lottery to do this..Just start very small, offer an experience for your customers that's different than what they have now, back it up with information, sharing, community- stay committed, do it right...make it scaleable, and take care of your customers...the details will work themselves out.

Get 'em!

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

A thought from a guy who just got into the hobby.

One of the first things that I thought about when wanting to have a saltwater tank was sourcing livestock and dry goods (tanks, equipment, etc. as well). I found out, that in my area, there are three stores. As I started meeting and talking to local people who have tanks, soon, word of mouth about each of those three stores gave me the distinct idea that, 'I don't want to use them.' I did anyway. Why, the whole thing about ... I want to touch, see, learn about product and livestock. (not that I go around to LFS touching fish) But you understand. Sadly, I found that everything that I had heard was at least half true if not fully true. So, I turned to the internet. And Wow! I can do this. That fish (or what ever) isn't that bad ... but wait. View Cart. WHAT !! I have to pay 50 bucks to get a 12 dollar fish??!! So, back to the LFS. You want me to pay 20 for what I know I can get for 12? Twenty is a lot less than 62 (online price after shipping) so ... ugh! OK.

Now, talk about food, bacteria in a bottle, other things that are not wet. With waders strapped on, you wade through all the LFS advice about, "well, don't do it like that, you need this, you need that, why do you want to do it like that, don't believe what you read on the internet ... " You see the sales pitch from a mile away. All I wanted to do was leave and go to ~smart pet~ (reverse that) and get a 10 gal tank, fill it with fresh water and few fish and call it a day. (they know nothing about fish either ... I mean the adopt a cat location is right next to the fish tanks, really?)

Oh to find a good LFS. Again, with all that said, and yes, it does bash on the local guy who built the brick and mortar ... I don't think their intention was or is to be rude. I have no idea the mile they just walked prior to my ringing the bell entering the front door. I was just looking for someone with a smile on their face who would listen to me and then talk (even if it was a sales pitch.)

With all the social media and even the whole of the internet changing business models, not just for the aquarium world, the case is not closed yet. There has not been a "this is the way", or "this is now the new business model" decided. What I have seen successful people do is, dip their toe in all of the water. (pun intended) Look at every method, every way, from forums, local shows, regional get togethers, my-twit-face, to what ever technology tomorrow holds and view it as a probable way to have a business model. Then they do ... (implied action)

I love the kiosk idea, and if suppliers can't see that as a revenue source, then with time, they will not be the supplier anymore. You know, when then the power goes out and pump shuts off, water will self-level.

Anywho, my two-cents...

A thought from a guy who just got into the hobby.


Excellent points. Thanks for you input!

You bring up a sad truth that is not just applicable to the tropical fish industry..It's a part of many retail market segments. Today's consumer is more savvy, more in tune with reality. Not stupid or misinformed. Sadly, any retailer in ANY sector that feels that customers don't matter deserves to fail. I agree about the need to innovate and try new business models. There are realities that affect both online and brick-and-mortar companies. Overhead, inventory, staffing, shipping costs, insurance, etc., etc. All play a role.

I think that there IS a happy medium between the traditional LFS model and the online model, but it needs to be approached differently; thought through from different angles. The reality is that you need to build relationships, trust, and confidence. It's not easy to do in both a brick and mortar or online setting, but the savvy business owners do it. I so disdain the "its can't be changed" or "...because no one is willing to work with me..." stuff. There is ALWAYS an alternative- always a way to get around the obstacles. It's not Amazon's fault, it's not the garage framer-guy's fault, it's notch economy..It's the ATTITUDE that we as business owners let get in our way. Disruptive business models, like AirBnb, BitCoin, Uber, etc.- love 'em or hate 'em- are what are needed. Maybe not something as groundbreaking as those, but at least an iteration or improvement. Look beyond our industry into paradigm-changing moves in other market sectors. Their methodology and thought are applicable to our industry as well. It starts and ends with people...People willing to try a new type of approach, and people willing to take a chance and become customers. No magic in that, just fundamental people skills that are always important and impactful.

-Scott

 

[ReefCave]

Its a major obsession, addiction and love for the hobby. As Scott stated: Surprisingly its a VERY challenging and interesting business that I KNOW is underestimated until your in the thick of it. Working with the animals on a daily basis and learning the ins and outs and the why's of filtration, biology, chemistry, and business and making great friends that relate to the passion keeps me personally going.
These manufacturers need to figure it out though, or their competition that does support their product line and have their vendors back and a high QUALITY product will replace them. (they have in my store already which is working) For the LFS readers I cannot stress the importance voicing this opinion if it is shared with your Rep. They will only listen once their products have been replaced and it needs to happen on a national level. That I feel is the change that the LFS can take immediately. Otherwise they are just making you.. the LFS look bad to YOUR customers for representing THEIR product and wasting your time, shelf space, resources, and most importantly your reputation.

 

[uniquecorals]

Its a major obsession, addiction and love for the hobby. As Scott stated: Surprisingly its a VERY challenging and interesting business that I KNOW is underestimated until your in the thick of it. Working with the animals on a daily basis and learning the ins and outs and the why's of filtration, biology, chemistry, and business and making great friends that relate to the passion keeps me personally going.
These manufacturers need to figure it out though, or their competition that does support their product line and have their vendors back and a high QUALITY product will replace them. (they have in my store already) For the LFS readers I cannot stress the importance voicing this opinion if it is shared with your Rep. They will only listen once their products have been replaced and it needs to happen on a national level. That I feel is the change that the LFS can take immediately. Otherwise they are just making you.. the LFS look bad to YOUR customers for representing THEIR product and wasting your time, shelf space, resources, and most importantly your reputation.

I couldn't have worded it any better. The fish "game" involves a multitude of moving parts, and retailers, like consumers, have the ability to "vote with their wallets" and simply not support businesses who don't "play fair." It's a new economy, a new reality, and non-viable, non-sustainable, and outmoded business models will eliminate themselves from the 'gene pool."

Reference Kodak, Blockbuster, and other businesses that failed to adapt to the markets that they served. Survival of the fittest. Hobbyists need to demand more of vendors, vendors need to demand more of themselves and their suppliers/manufacturers...it's not whining, not complaining- it's a simple reality of business.

 

[heathd.hd]

I couldn't have worded it any better. The fish "game" involves a multitude of moving parts, and retailers, like consumers, have the ability to "vote with their wallets" and simply not support businesses who don't "play fair." It's a new economy, a new reality, and non-viable, non-sustainable, and outmoded business models will eliminate themselves from the 'gene pool."

Reference Kodak, Blockbuster, and other businesses that failed to adapt to the markets that they served. Survival of the fittest. Hobbyists need to demand more of vendors, vendors need to demand more of themselves and their suppliers/manufacturers...it's not whining, not complaining- it's a simple reality of business.

Most complaints with lfs seem to come from the fact that they haven't changed there methods since they opened there doors. Still pushing bio balls and selling damsels for tank cycling. It's a new area the interwebs has challenged everyone with knowledge. Get with it or go out of buisness.

 

[BaritoneJP]

Most complaints with lfs seem to come from the fact that they haven't changed there methods since they opened there doors. Still pushing bio balls and selling damsels for tank cycling. It's a new area the interwebs has challenged everyone with knowledge. Get with it or go out of buisness.

I agree.

Older LFS do not have to abandon their experience. If the "old way" was to cycle with a shrimp from the sea food market, or with a damsel "back in the day," then that knowledge is still valuable. To teach why those things were done; for an ammonia source ... because now we know more about territorial behavior of the damsel, is still a "minimal marketable feature" for the LFS. It is good info, then the LFS could move towards, "Today, we have X product, or X method ... for example, a local client cycled his/her tank using Y method." That is important ... a teachable moment. So the new LFS client/hobbyist learns from that experience that you need an ammonia source to start the cycle (in other words, why). Same goes for bio balls, this is what we knew, now we know, here is product X or live rock Y. What if the client wants it today? ... then they haven't done their research. That client could still be "guided" down a path where you use bacteria in a bottle or mud ...

teachable moments ...

 

[ReefCave]

So True. And selling a product is just properly educating the customer. This is a hobby which people are passionate about. They want to know the trends, the latest and greatest etc. The fundamentals of the hobby are consistent. The ways of approaching and achieving the fundamentals are always changing. Skimming, Calcification additions, lighting etc. As those trends change if you are a LFS in today's online world. Its important to be aware of and even experiment with those changes. You cant wait for the next months edition of your favorite fish magazine to come in the mail. Especially if catering to enthusiasts...However without a profit margin non of this matters. And that is the basic fundamental of business

 

[uniquecorals]

Beautifully stated...Accumulated knowledge should not be cast aside as "outmoded" or "incorrect;" rather, it should be used to explain the evolution and the concepts behind why we do what we do. To "outlaw" any "Old" thinking seems very scary! I like your thoughts about "teachable" moments...absoltuely. The keen LFS or online vendor knows that the education aspect is really an opportunity to build a relationship, a customer, and sales...It's not immediate in many cases, but its long-lasting and valuable.

 

[DurocShark]

I think this is a great idea... It was a successful concept in the 70's and 80's. Remember catalog stores? But with modern technology, it could come back even stronger, especially for niche markets like ours.

I suspect that's what Amazon is brewing up right now... Catalog stores.

 

[FX CharityCorals]

When I worked at a LFS and probably even today the people on this website represent maybe 10% of the clientele that walk through the doors. This website is a community and with a community most will think alike. The other 90% do not have the desire to learn. The number one question I was asked time and time again. How cheap can I setup a saltwater tank? No matter how much time you spent explaining to them about better equipment, health of the creatures, ect... at the end of the day they have $500 and wanted a tank. So as a store owner do you turn down the business or take what you can because you have a family to support? Its a double edged sword for the owner. In some areas there is enough hobbyists to support turning away this kind of customer. In alot I bet they need every sale possible.

The number of times I had people come in and look and get educated on an item and go buy it online was immense. Hey it's cheaper and I don't have to pay tax or they bought it used and called up to find out how it works. I thoroughly enjoyed wasting my time. For many people they put very little price on knowledge. Thanks Google. The people that do are fantastic and were a joy to educate and watch them become successful.

Why do you see bioballs and lower end skimmers? Most new hobbyists are very hard to convince to spend 3x the price on something they can't even understand. The show tanked starts alot of people off already on the wrong foot because most people believe what they see on TV that other 90% im talking about. They don't want to hear why they can't stock a tank in a week.

The industry itself needs an overhaul from the wholesalers dry/live all the way up. Livestock wholesalers need to stop sending out a price list to every basement vendor. Yes at first it gets them more sales but at the expense of undercutting their LFS. The LFS is going to do more volume than most basement part timers. So if all the cherry stuff is picked over by the basement guy only wanting top stuff what does that leave the LFS? Bread and butter and then people complain their LFS doesn't get anything cool. Some stores don't period but you get my point.

Drygoods are almost worse. The margins are horrible if you are trying to compete against the online retailers. Wow im going to lay out $500 in inventory to make 10%? MAP pricing needs to be more in effect and enforced.

Stores need to be clean and presentable with more attention given to keeping their livestock alive and healthy. I mean it only makes sense you are literately flushing money down the toilet if you don't.

A succussful store has to have multiple revenue streams in order to survive now a days. A good maintenance division, an online store/social media presence, a knowledgeable staff and clean store. All great in theory but alot of times hard to do. The main issue I find is finding the quality employees and keeping them. Overall I personally see the number of LFS contracting more at least in my area. Between overhead, utilities, low margins, livestock losses, internet competition it's not worth it for most to stay open even if they love it.

 

[uniquecorals]

Thanks for the feedback, Jason...like we've said, change needs to occur at multiple levels to create a more viable industry overall, but especially at the LFS level...on the other hand, it's (sadly) adapt or die for any business in any market category...business "Darwinism."

-Scott

 

[fazgood]

Interesting thoughts. Certainly something to ponder. Our approach is to do what they cannot. Provide high quality live animals, proven products, live foods, impeccable customer service and anything else the online folks can't provide.

Sticking with suppliers that support MAP is a way of life for us. We also have many live foods , most of which are grown in house.

Joe...

 

[uniquecorals]

Exactly...innovation...value innovation, fuels success in a variety of situations. Give consumers an experience they can't get anywhere else...Retailers of all types need to continuously adapt to a changing world. There is always...ALWAYS room to work around challenges. eBay, Amazon, garage dealers...whatever...bring it. BRING it. Creativity and hard work always find a way, as you point out.

-Scott

 

[reeffirstaid]

I know, from my experiences with LFSs - there seems to be a basic grade from LFS to LFS. Some stores and I will use Wet Pets and Friends in McMurray, PA as an example, are immaculate representations of what reef keeping can be, in the hands of a dedicated and experienced aquarist. They have a wide array of fish species, coral species and invert species for sale, and the display tanks are top notch. For the most part the staff is knowledgeable and you see the same faces working over the years, making one guess they are aquarists themselves and are paid well enough to stick around. Then comes the down-side to places like Wet Pets, the price. A pair of designer clownfish you can grab from the Diver's Den online for $ 199 - retails in some of these upscale shops for $ 499 plus. A French Angelfish, which can be had online for $ 89 with free shipping, is $ 299 plus in a shop.

At first glance, it would seem like these upscale LFS stores are ripping customers a new hole for defecating purposes. The reality is, in order to have staff that is passionate about aquariums and that doesn't change with the seasons, they have to pay them. That alone is expensive. The cost of running an LFS I imagine is tremendous, especially a nice one with top notch equipment. My point being that I can't see how a nice LFS could afford to run without charge considerably more for their product. An online retailer wouldn't need near the amount of customer service staff, as a place that has a continual flow of foot traffic.

Grade 2 of LFS are complete dumps. These make up the vast majority of LFS stores I've visited. They aren't clean, the animals aren't healthy and the store attendant knows near to nothing. The owner is never there and the place is where fish and coral comes to die. I've often found in these dumps, prices are much more reasonable, but the quality is so low, who would consider buying it.

Since online ordering is so much easier these days, it makes it very attractive to simply order online and skip going to the store. Especially if, like me, you live 2+ hours from the nearest nice LFS. As for Amazon, Amazon competes well against other online suppliers, simply because they offer such competitive prices and faster shipping, which is often free.

 

[Gonzo]

Garage sellers rule!

Some of us have no desire to be married to a retail store.

I like my freedom. I would hate to be a slave to a shop, just so I am considered legit lol.

As for livestock wholesaler, and dry goods wholesale. Most ALL sell to me. Even the ones you think dont, they do.

What should grind the gears of the LFS is the wholesalers who have retail outlets. Buying from your competitors that sell the products cheaper than or at wholesale pricing.

 

[uniquecorals]

Great points by both. Garage sellers, eBay sellers, LFS, whatever. The point is that you need to simply be great at what you do. The LFS reefirstaid is describing is the type that deserves support...Yes, their pricing reflects their realities and expenses...Garage vendors, eBay people, et...their price structure reflects theirs...It's not just about pricing, of course, but that's a big differentiator for many consumers. Others prefer service over anything else...It's up to us as vendors to innovate, do what we do best. Gonzo mentions a nasty little issue: Wholesalers who sell retail as well...not a great thing.

Although, some may argue that wholesalers who engage in this practice are "innovating.." One could probably use the analogy about "rules" in warfare (which business is, to some extent)...Can't say to know the answers...Again, the important thing is that everyone in any type of business in any type of industry has to simply elevate.

It seems like the one issue retailers (LFS and otherwise) are bringing up repeatedly in this thread and in the many PM's I am receiving is the lack of MAP price "enforcement" by manufacturers....

And Gonzo, you could work out of a bathroom and you'd still be legit in my eyes, LOL. See you soon!

Scott

 

[ReefCave]

Some of us have no desire to be married to a retail store.

I like my freedom. I would hate to be a slave to a shop, just so I am considered legit lol.

As for livestock wholesaler, and dry goods wholesale. Most ALL sell to me. Even the ones you think dont, they do.

What should grind the gears of the LFS is the wholesalers who have retail outlets. Buying from your competitors that sell the products cheaper than or at wholesale pricing.

Josh you are exactly right.
The livestock category of this issue is an entirely different and i Feel far more complex issue than the dry goods. Like I stated their is no manufacturer to control the supply chain its a free for all. The most concerning issue is there is more supply than demand in livestock. Maybe not so much in the VERY niche enthusiast category such as this forum...yet. There will always be the latest and greatest new coral etc (ex WWC Bounce shroom) and far more demand than supply. But as we all know that is temporary once it is spread and propagated throughout the hobby.

Concerning Livestock wholesalers yes... they will lie directly to your face that they do not sell to lets say Gonzo's but we LFS know they do.(I think..If not they should) Especially after seeing WYSIWYG listed on their site now listed on a garage shops site. Its no secret. Hell, Ive had them even sale to an employee or customer direct, often times without a business at all. (My guess why the Los Angeles LFS market has fizzled away) Im guessing Florida will see the same issue if it has not already. Today hobbyists and stores are able to bypass wholesalers altogether in certain parts of the country. ATTN: Wholesalers GOOGLE STREET VIEW EXISTS. Verify your client. Problem is many don't care. They have bills too, and need to eat. With Livestock...being no manufacturer is in control, the only control the LFS has is to expose these vendors to other LFS and simply not support them, and shower the ones whom are protecting the LFS with business. The LFS makes up the bulk of the business guaranteed. Its all the LFS can do. To continue to support these known wholesalers is just propelling the problem forward. The ones that get me are the stores that support a wholesaler/importer that also retails... WHAT..wake up LFS there is NO loyalty there from that supplier.

There are both good and bad LFS stores out there some propelling the hobby forward others taking it backward. Clearly poorly maintained tanks and sick or dead livestock is not good. Bigger problem I see is setting a client up for failure just to secure a sale. ... (While sleeping at night) Push them into a FO swimmer tank or even freshwater Cichlids before setting them up for failure and putting another "red mark on the hobby".

Here is the question and maybe the potential problem for the longevity of the industry based on its current wild west state. Maybe not. But time will tell.

My question is this.( This maybe would be a good poll maybe for the Admins to post.) Id be fascinated!


Q)What tank got you into the hobby?
Online introduction. (virtual interaction)
A) Was it you happened to stumble across reef2reef and decided to order a tank online?
B) Mass Media introduction
C) Was it you watched a TV show and said that's cool Ill order a tank online?
D) Browsing social media and Ill order a tank online?
or

RealLife Introduction
A)Were you in PetCo (a LFS in its own way)
B)At a freinds house? ( how and where did he acquire that tank? a LFS?)
C) at a doctors office (prob maintained and installed by a LFS)
D)At a fish store LFS?

Locally I know the garage shops sit as vultures waiting to pounce on clients that I have or my competition has installed aquariums in. (bringing exposure to the hobby). It would be interesting to see what happens if all those LFS decided to shut the doors. Would the trickle effect happen. Would the supply even more-so exceed demand? If so that not good for the ENTIRE INDUSTRY. Wholesalers, manufacturers, garage shops, Reef forums, customers EVERYBODY.[/QUOTE]

 

[Gonzo]

If you stop supporting wholesalers that sell to "Garage Vendors" like myself, where you going to buy product ?

They ALL do it fella, I can only think of 2 that don't. 1 livestock wholesaler, and 1 drygoods.

 

[Gonzo]

Heath, that is the board room, where all major decisions are made.