10X Turnover ??

[JMetaxas]

I'm curious if Triton has ever seriously explained this? Is there science behind it?

For those with larger tanks, this becomes a tough thing to meet.

I'm setting up a 180 gallon tank, based on Triton and the 1800gph turnover isn't easy to meet.

For the successful Triton users out there, what is your turnover?

 

[HiddenUser]

I'm curious if Triton has ever seriously explained this? Is there science behind it?

For those with larger tanks, this becomes a tough thing to meet.

I'm setting up a 180 gallon tank, based on Triton and the 1800gph turnover isn't easy to meet.

For the successful Triton users out there, what is your turnover?

I feel your pain. I have a 270G display with a sump in the basement with approximately 400G of total system volume. Even with 2x RE RD3 Speedy 230Watt returns running at max, I'm 'only' getting 5-6x turnover per hour.

 

[JMetaxas]

Are you happy though? (with your Triton results)

 

[HiddenUser]

Are you happy though? (with your Triton results)

I'm currently using biopellets.

I've been interested in switching to Triton to get away from water changes every two weeks. I go through a box of regular IO each month, so I'd be happy to reduce my costs by $50/month and save myself an hour or two of time...but I'd need to redo my sump configuration or purchase a new sump and also figure out a way to get the suggested 10x turnover. It's probably possible to get closer to 10x turnover, but I'd need to completely revamp my return plumbing.

Also the recommendation of a 10-20% refugium...the refugium chamber alone would need to be 30-60G, so we're taking about a fairly large sump.

 

[wopadobop]

The recommended 10x turnover serves a few purposes. firstly it keep detritus suspended throughout the system to be removed by the skimmer and constantly broken down. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this theory at first as well as my experience had always been to have a slow flow zone for it to settle to reduce nitrate wastes, where it could be removed with a siphon during water changes . also we would always try to match turnover rates with the water flow of the skimmer. however, i have noticed that with the 10x turnover my skimmer actually pulls much more skimmate , the sump stays perfectly clean , which is important as we do not rely on water changes in triton( this is actually doable btw, not a sales pitch). with the detritus being broken down it allows it to feed the algae . the turnover rate is also important to keep the refugium clear of debris.

what they dont tell you is that you can acheive this with a powerhead in the refugium section so that takes care of half the system.

as far as refugium size, you can get away with 10% , but wont have the nutrient buffer capacity as much as the 20%. basically in time of nutrient deficiency some of the algae with die back and provide some nutrients for the corals . its self regulating. it is recommended to prune out the algae in small amounts to keep it growing but some dont. some do . that is one area we dont have completely down pact yet.
hope that helps.

 

[JMetaxas]

Interesting. Adding a powerhead to the refugium area is quite simple and if it serves the purpose, it sure makes life a lot easier as far as pump and overflow size.

 

[bdejong1112o]

Take all of what I say based on what you paid for it.

Triton is a method. I am refering to what is called Triton Core 7 Full Method and not what they call other methods. They have a set of recomendations about how to duplicate thier method. Thisndoesnt mean that its the only way to get the desired results but its one way they have found to get them.

The main requirements that most people seem to struggle with is turnover and refugium size. Here is my approach.

I did not skimp on the refugium. From all the research I did and reading about the method the refugium appeard to me to be the priority. I have a 220g display and have a dedicated 29g tank for just the refugium. I attempted to fit a 40g in that spot but fell a few inches short.

For turnover I am not at 10x just with my return pump. Evennwith a minimalist design on the return pipes I am not able to get 10x out of it. However as @wopadobop stated, you can get extra flow by using a pump in the refugium. I stumbled on this due to adding a pump to the refugium right under the dosing tubes to create a super high flow area for the dosing of the elements. I cannot be understated what the importance of extremely high flow for where you dose the triton liquids.

I have also thought about running two return pumps instead of just one. I am going to hold off on that until the tank tells me I need it.

I have not been running my tank that long but I have also not done a single water change since thenday I put the water in the tank and I have no plans on doing that unless some situation arises that makes me do one. I test regularly and my ICP results tell me what additional trace elements I need on top of the core 7.

My fish are healthy, my corals are doing good, mostly all LPS with a few trial SPS in there right now. Some would say to early but my water chemistry is stable and I plan to keep it that way.

The neat part about any method is that it is just A method. You can approach it differently and may get the same results or maybe not. However, its a great starting point and if you either run a lower return rate or a 9.5% refugium you may only have to make some small changes to get similar results. I would say that the furthur you deviate from the core set of requirements the less likely you may be in achieving the same or similar results.

What I have not seen is a table of success linked to deviation of the requirements. Is it linear, exponential or logarithmic? Time will tell and feedback from the community will be key to getting that data since I dont think Triton could possibly test every permutation.

How close can you get in your system?

 

[JMetaxas]

Great info guys.

 

[madweazl]

Once your refugium matures and is packed with macro-algae, 10x flow isn't going to come close to keeping it free of detritus so I wouldn't believe that to be a factor in their recommendation for 10x turnover rate. Additionally, a powerhead within the refugium would just add unnecessary maintenance to this section that ideally, has almost none if you follow their method to a "T." I've run 3x all the way up to 10x through mine for extended periods of time (right around a month at 10x) and my skimmer performs the same (I drain it every week and it has roughly the same amount of skimmate every week).

 

[Chris Villalobos]

the turnover rate is also important to keep the refugium clear of debris.

From my experience, detritus eventually accumulates somewhere. There are just products of the reef that can't be broken down any further and become a brownish dust in the bottom of my sump. I believe the Chaeto is supposed to act as a natural filter and settle the detritus. We need to clean the sump every so often.

I'm also thinking that the 10x will remove much of the ammonia from the display tank and get it down to the sump algae as fast as possible.

I have a 35 gallon nano so I can generate 10x pretty easily compared to the larger tanks many reefers run, but I found that I still needed a 1500gph pump to actually achieve that turnover rate. I was running a 700 gph pump and only getting x6. I think many pump manufactures over estimate their numbers.

 

[JMetaxas]

At some point you have to track a molecule of water or nutrient and consider its chances of getting “caught” by the Chaeto or afterwards the skimmer. It’s actually a pretty interesting science if you really think about it. Kind of similar to dwell time on a UV sterilizer.

 

[Lasse]

Hi

I do not run the full Triton method yet but have picked some of their ideas - among them the high turn over - mostly for the reason Chris Villalobos mention in the post 10. Get out with NH3/NH4 from the DP asap. In my case - the overflow goes to my fuge - so this 30 litres fuge have a turn over of 100 times a hour.

However - I have noticed a very low sedimentation rate in my sump. app 80 litres and in the display - app 300 litres (around 90 gallons) My flow from the return pump is around 3000 litres/hour

At some point you have to track a molecule of water or nutrient and consider its chances of getting “caught” by the Chaeto or afterwards the skimmer. It’s actually a pretty interesting science if you really think about it. Kind of similar to dwell time on a UV sterilizer.

The total time per day any particle is in my fuge or in my skimmer is the same and not depended of the turn over rate - its a recirculated systen - not a throughflow system

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I like to think if it this way also. If I had perfectly scrubbed clean salt water coming into my Display would I want to replace the dirty display water x1 or x20 per hour? I would rather have x20 if possible.

With my 35 gallon display I’m able to have a sump that is 60% display value (20 gallons) and it only cost me $20. I have a really easy time scrubbing my water.

My issues are that my water can be too clean for some filter feeders so balance is in order. I may need more fish in the tank!

 

[Sallstrom]

We run 3 different tanks with 3 different methods, but all of them close to the Triton method. Largest tank is 26m3 and the smallest 3500 litres. Since we are a public aquarium with limited budget we can't rebuild everything to fit a certain method. IMO it works great even if the refugiums aren't X% of the volume and the turnover is Y%.
For example in our 10m3 reef we cannot have 100m3 turnover, the pipes and overflow can only take about 8m3/h. But I'm pretty happy with how that tank has turn out anyway.

Anyway, it's great to have guidelines but IMO it is possible to do it your own way as well with Triton method

/ David

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Everyone agrees 1x is probably too low but is 10x more than necessary? I know BRS investigates issues like this and they have the control aquariums already set up. I actually asked them if they could investigate this very issue last week. Maybe more people did the same we might receive some conclusive evidence.

 

[e34stx]

my thinking is the algae needs contact time, so high return flow means less contact time before being pumped back into the display. i notice the higher the turnover the less my skimmer pulls out. i have settled for around 8x as this seems to be my skimmers optimal removal setup.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

I'm not certain dwell time for algae is the same as skimmers... would be interesting if there were some hard data.

FWIW JMetaxas, I do use the full Triton method and figuring out how to achieve the necessary flow was one of the more difficult tasks to overcome with a 120DT, 125g sump in the basement and 23' of head between the two.

It was incredibly expensive upfront, but if you do the math and compare energy savings vs the cost of operating a reeflo and likely having to replace it at least once (if not twice) over the same period; an Abyzz is the route to go.

Now as the old adage goes: "just because you own a snowblower doesn't mean you should use it in July." I had designed a system that could handle a system turnover of 10x... all of 2,200 GPH... at 23' of head. It was way, way to much!!

What I hadn't considered was the impact of putting the larger sump in on total flow. With the Abyzz's ability to be controlled by an Apex, the system has been running for a while now at a much more sedate 1,300 GPH (or roughly a 120g tank +10% x 10).

I am also using an external skimmer that draws after the refugium and returns at the head end of the sump, adding another 2x to 3x turnover just in the basement alone.

A whole lotta flow, but seems to be working.

I'll probably jinx it for saying this, and remember you are "reading this on the internet," but in 30 some odd years of marine aquarium keeping that Abyzz pump is likely the most impressive piece of equipment (certainly top five) I have owned - and that covers a LOT of cool stuff!!

...yeah, yeah, yeah... I am old enough to not only know why they call 'em power-heads, but I actually can remember going "hi-tech" and replacing air stones in my under gravel filters with them!

M

 

[BobNY]

Flow is my biggest concern with my pending change to the Triton method. I have a 125g display that will use a Trigger Triton 44 sump. I bought a VarioS 8 thinking it would do the job, but now I'm not so sure. My tank is a Aqueon reef ready with Megaflow overflows. I am converting the overflows to full siphon and will be running a 1-1/4" return line over the side that will most likely have 5 90deg elbows. I will give it a try with VarioS and if I'm close, I will stay with it. I have a feeling a Red Deagon or Abyzz may be in my future though

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Looks like Triton answered this question in another post:
Skeptical On High Flow Sump...

 

[Jaculus]

I'm curious if Triton has ever seriously explained this? Is there science behind it?

For those with larger tanks, this becomes a tough thing to meet.

I'm setting up a 180 gallon tank, based on Triton and the 1800gph turnover isn't easy to meet.

For the successful Triton users out there, what is your turnover?

I sort of asked the same question a couple months ago. https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/335679/