2-Part AND Kalkwasser Dosing: What am I doing wrong?

[gofor100]

Hey All (and hopefully Randy can chime in here),

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong here since I feel (given my livestock, which is not a ton) my uptake is abnormal (previously had precipitate issues, so I'm paranoid that this may be happening again). Here are my system specs:

> 210 Gallon DT/about 250 gallons total volume with sump (system will have been running 2 years as of August 2022)
> Levels as of 12pm today: Alk 8; Ca 449; 1455 Mag (using Trident)- the Alk seems to drop while the other two remain relatively the same
> Livestock includes 1 large maxima clam, 1 medium derasa clam, 1 small crocea clam, along with multiple small colonies/frags of zoanthids, some small colonies and frags of LPS, and several frags of SPS (some multi-branch); by no means a fully stocked tank

Here is my current dosing schedule:

> Kalkwasser continuous dosing via a Versa pump at 2.25ml/minute (still less than what is evaporated)- this is dosed into my refugium where a pump immediately mixes this into the water
> 2-part using BRS supplements (calcium chloride, soda ash, and magnesium 2-part maintenance)- I'm dosing (using the Neptune DOS) in excess of 250mls of each calcium chloride and soda ash (more Soda Ash since that is the one currently dropping and I know that Kalkwasser will adjust what should otherwise be a 1:1 ratio between dosing calcium/alkalinity supplements), and dose a fraction of the magnesium (just read that I should be dosing .16ml per 1ml of calcium chloride- so I've upped my magnesium dosing today and will adjust if my Mag increases significantly)- my calcium chloride is currently being dosed into a circulation pump located in my skimmer section (which comes before my refugium) and my soda ash is being dosed in the same section as my kalkwasser (also into a circulation pump).

Does anyone have any experience dosing Kalkwasser and 2-part together, which can/should be dosed in relative close proximity together (e.g., is it better to dose the calcium or the soda ash in the same section as where the kalkwasser is being dripped), have an explanation as to why my Alkalinity is dropping even though I seem to be auto-dosing a large amount of 2-part already, and any other tips in doing this as I can't seem to keep the levels stable.

Thanks in advance,

Chad

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

@Randy Holmes-Farley send in the pro.

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

My system is less then a third of your volume and I dose esv 2 part and top off w kalk max saturation during the overnite to help w ph and evaporation. Even then I’m using more alk then calcium. I test daily using Hanna and I hang around 8.4. Currently use 25-30ml daily to keep it there. Mixed reef. Had a large derasa w some decent sized sps and lps. All growing. Alk of 8 isn’t bad. U mentioned 250 ml? That a day? On a 1:1 ratio calcium/alk. Sry not a chemist just sharing system info. Hopeful the doctor chimes in.

 

[gofor100]

Yup, that's 250ml/day, which is why I'm concerned given my livestock shouldn't be enough to necessitate that I would assume (granted, my system is 250 gallons total).

If it's precipitating, I know I need to stop dosing for a couple of days (three?) and then restart, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There should be no issue using both at the same time, but higher pH does have the potential to drive precipitation.

Can you calculate the total alk added each day in dKH? The calculators linke at the top of the forum can help.

 

[Pntbll687]

Hey All (and hopefully Randy can chime in here),

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong here since I feel (given my livestock, which is not a ton) my uptake is abnormal (previously had precipitate issues, so I'm paranoid that this may be happening again). Here are my system specs:

> 210 Gallon DT/about 250 gallons total volume with sump (system will have been running 2 years as of August 2022)
> Levels as of 12pm today: Alk 8; Ca 449; 1455 Mag (using Trident)- the Alk seems to drop while the other two remain relatively the same
> Livestock includes 1 large maxima clam, 1 medium derasa clam, 1 small crocea clam, along with multiple small colonies/frags of zoanthids, some small colonies and frags of LPS, and several frags of SPS (some multi-branch); by no means a fully stocked tank

Here is my current dosing schedule:

> Kalkwasser continuous dosing via a Versa pump at 2.25ml/minute (still less than what is evaporated)- this is dosed into my refugium where a pump immediately mixes this into the water
> 2-part using BRS supplements (calcium chloride, soda ash, and magnesium 2-part maintenance)- I'm dosing (using the Neptune DOS) in excess of 250mls of each calcium chloride and soda ash (more Soda Ash since that is the one currently dropping and I know that Kalkwasser will adjust what should otherwise be a 1:1 ratio between dosing calcium/alkalinity supplements), and dose a fraction of the magnesium (just read that I should be dosing .16ml per 1ml of calcium chloride- so I've upped my magnesium dosing today and will adjust if my Mag increases significantly)- my calcium chloride is currently being dosed into a circulation pump located in my skimmer section (which comes before my refugium) and my soda ash is being dosed in the same section as my kalkwasser (also into a circulation pump).

Does anyone have any experience dosing Kalkwasser and 2-part together, which can/should be dosed in relative close proximity together (e.g., is it better to dose the calcium or the soda ash in the same section as where the kalkwasser is being dripped), have an explanation as to why my Alkalinity is dropping even though I seem to be auto-dosing a large amount of 2-part already, and any other tips in doing this as I can't seem to keep the levels stable.

Thanks in advance,

Chad

What's the volume of kalk you're dosing for the day? The 2-part volume seems VERY high for not being a fully stocked tank.

Like Randy asked, do you know the alk consumption for a 24hr period?

 

[gofor100]

There should be no issue using both at the same time, but higher pH does have the potential to drive precipitation.

Can you calculate the total alk added each day in dKH? The calculators linke at the top of the forum can help.

Thanks for jumping in Randy.

Well, not sure if this answers your question, but I'm adding 260mls of BRS alkalinity (soda ash), which, based on my water volume, is supposed to increase my alkalinity by 1.5dKH (so, presumably, my tank is using 1.5dKH daily).

I will also note that my recorded pH hovers around 7.9-8.05, so never goes super low or high.

 

[gofor100]

I guess I just want to make sure that dosing BOTH Kalk and 2-part (with soda ash as my alkalinity supplement) isn't inherently causing issues (given my pH is relatively low to begin with) and if there are any precautions I should be taking to avoid precipitation that I haven't already noted that I'm doing.

If precipitation is suspected, I will go through the steps of solving this, but if a 1.5dKH drop is "normal" for a 250 gallon total volume reef tank not yet heavily stocked, then I guess I just have to roll with the dose amount.

One thing that is making this difficult to answer is I've been chasing the Alkalinity numbers, so I can remain steady in my dosing schedule for the next 24 hours to give you a more accurate depiction of my consumptions rates.

 

[Pntbll687]

Thanks for jumping in Randy.

Well, not sure if this answers your question, but I'm adding 260mls of BRS alkalinity (soda ash), which, based on my water volume, is supposed to increase my alkalinity by 1.5dKH (so, presumably, my tank is using 1.5dKH daily).

I will also note that my recorded pH hovers around 7.9-8.05, so never goes super low or high.

You also need to factor in the kalkwasser, the amount you have going in is about .85 gallons, and you would need an alk consumption of around .4dkh to use all the kalk. This would put your total alk consumption somewhere near 1.9-2.0dkh per day when adding the soda ash to the kalk.

Without pics of the tank, I'm going to guess you probably have some precipitation going on somewhere.

 

[gofor100]

What's the volume of kalk you're dosing for the day? The 2-part volume seems VERY high for not being a fully stocked tank.

Like Randy asked, do you know the alk consumption for a 24hr period?

2.25ml/minute= 3,240 mls/day (.86 gallons)

 

[gofor100]

You also need to factor in the kalkwasser, the amount you have going in is about .85 gallons, and you would need an alk consumption of around .4dkh to use all the kalk. This would put your total alk consumption somewhere near 1.9-2.0dkh per day when adding the soda ash to the kalk.

Without pics of the tank, I'm going to guess you probably have some precipitation going on somewhere.

Thanks. So I guess my next questions are:

1. To stop the precipitation, I assume I stop dosing altogether for about 72 hours, then start back up again. Should I start with just Kalk, start with just 2-part, or start with both?

2. When I do start back up, to bring my parameters up (no more than 1dKH for Alkalinity per day), would you recommend me doing this via a water change with higher parameters in the new water, or doing so via my auto-dosing (or both)?

3. Tips on avoiding this in the future? Should the Kalk be dripped in the same section of the sump (with a good amount of flow) as the Soda Ash, or the Calcium supplement (or does it matter)?

Thanks,

Chad

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess I just want to make sure that dosing BOTH Kalk and 2-part (with soda ash as my alkalinity supplement) isn't inherently causing issues (given my pH is relatively low to begin with) and if there are any precautions I should be taking to avoid precipitation that I haven't already noted that I'm doing.

If precipitation is suspected, I will go through the steps of solving this, but if a 1.5dKH drop is "normal" for a 250 gallon total volume reef tank not yet heavily stocked, then I guess I just have to roll with the dose amount.

One thing that is making this difficult to answer is I've been chasing the Alkalinity numbers, so I can remain steady in my dosing schedule for the next 24 hours to give you a more accurate depiction of my consumptions rates.

It doesn't. There are no combinations of alk and calcium methods that inherently interfere with each other.

1.5 dKH per day is not unusual, especially if there is good coralline growth or if there are growing hard corals.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. So I guess my next questions are:

1. To stop the precipitation, I assume I stop dosing altogether for about 72 hours, then start back up again. Should I start with just Kalk, start with just 2-part, or start with both?

2. When I do start back up, to bring my parameters up (no more than 1dKH for Alkalinity per day), would you recommend me doing this via a water change with higher parameters in the new water, or doing so via my auto-dosing (or both)?

3. Tips on avoiding this in the future? Should the Kalk be dripped in the same section of the sump (with a good amount of flow) as the Soda Ash, or the Calcium supplement (or does it matter)?

Thanks,

Chad

If precipitation is a concern, here's my standard recommendation:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH (stop the kalk)
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[Pntbll687]

Thanks. So I guess my next questions are:

1. To stop the precipitation, I assume I stop dosing altogether for about 72 hours, then start back up again. Should I start with just Kalk, start with just 2-part, or start with both?

2. When I do start back up, to bring my parameters up (no more than 1dKH for Alkalinity per day), would you recommend me doing this via a water change with higher parameters in the new water, or doing so via my auto-dosing (or both)?

3. Tips on avoiding this in the future? Should the Kalk be dripped in the same section of the sump (with a good amount of flow) as the Soda Ash, or the Calcium supplement (or does it matter)?

Thanks,

Chad

Follow Randy's advice on how to stop and restart dosing.

As for what should you dose, I would probably just go with 2-part dosing for now with sodium bicarb as the alk portion. You already mentioned not being super thrilled with dosing kalk and having a big container, so just go with something simple right now.

Dose in the highest flow area you can, even buying a small powerhead and putting it in the sump is an easy way to ensure your additives are getting mixed in correctly. Personally I dose just kalk, and I have the feed line going to directly in front of my protein skimmer intake. This way I know for sure it's getting mixed in right away.

 

[gofor100]

It doesn't. There are no combinations of alk and calcium methods that inherently interfere with each other.

1.5 dKH per day is not unusual, especially if there is good coralline growth or if there are growing hard corals.

Thanks for the taking the time to respond @Randy Holmes-Farley and @Pntbll687! I truly appreciate your help on this.

I think my dKH usage per day might actually be higher (as @Pntbll687 suggests- I didn't account for my Kalk dosing). I'll have a better idea now that I stopped dosing last night as I watch it drop over a 24 hour period. To be safe, I'm going to ensure that precipitation is not taking place and follow your protocol stated above. A few more questions when you have a moment:

1) Would you say 72 hours is a good amount of time to stop dosing (less or more?)?
2) When I do start dosing again, would you say there is less of a chance of precipitation when I start bringing my parameters up to optimal ranges if, rather than dosing directly into the tank, I do a few water changes with higher Alk replacement water?
3) If I ultimately am dosing a combination of Calcium Chloride, Soda Ash (since I ultimately want a boost in my pH), and Kalkwasser (see pH issues), are there two that interact with each other less (i.e., would be less likely to cause precipitation)? I kind of outlined this above, but I can either dose in my Skimmer section or my Refugium section, so would it be better to dose the Kalk in the same section as the Calcium Chloride or the Soda Ash?
4) Due to my pH issues, I would like to ultimately use both Soda Ash and Kalkwasser long-term. With that being said, what advice do you have to avoid future precipitation issues? I already have very turbulent flow immediately underneath my dosing lines (i.e., I have a powerhead running at the surface for both areas), my pH already struggles to stay in the 8.00-8.05 range (so high pH is not an issue), and I use the DOS for auto-dosing (so it isn't dumping in too much at any given moment).
5) You stated that 1.5dKH is pretty standard usage, but what would you say is at the high end for heavily stocked SPS dominant/mixed tank? I just want to know what range I should look out for in case I run into precipitation issues in the future.

Thanks again for all of your time on this!

Chad

 

[gofor100]

Based on the last 24 hours, it does look like the dKH usage is actually about 1dKH, so there must have been precipitation somewhere.

@Randy Holmes-Farley and @Pntbll687 thoughts on my prior post/questions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1. Yes
2. Water changes are not better than using baking soda to bring alk back up.
3. Alk supplements do not interact with each other. Both that you mentioned raise pH, and the effect is additive. I’d keep the pH on the low side for a week or more.

Calcium will interact with alk, of course. Just dosing everything at different times avoids any concern.

4. Precipitation is usually much less at pH 8.0 than at pH 8.4. Are you confident the pH is accurate?

5. A heavy SPS tank could top 4 dKH in demand, but also may be less. pH is a big driver of growth and demand, as is alk.

 

[gofor100]

1. Yes
2. Water changes are not better than using baking soda to bring alk back up.
3. Alk supplements do not interact with each other. Both that you mentioned raise pH, and the effect is additive. I’d keep the pH on the low side for a week or more.

Calcium will interact with alk, of course. Just dosing everything at different times avoids any concern.

4. Precipitation is usually much less at pH 8.0 than at pH 8.4. Are you confident the pH is accurate?

5. A heavy SPS tank could top 4 dKH in demand, but also may be less. pH is a big driver of growth and demand, as is alk.

Great, thank you so much again Randy!

I'll double check to make sure my pH is accurate and proceed accordingly.

Can't thank you both enough for taking the time.

Chad