230 gallon in-wall, room divider, reef build

[prsnlty]

It looks great! I just hope they line up to the bulkheads just right. How do you plan to do that?

 

[prsnlty]

I am also wondering how you plan to 1) keep the weight off the bulkheads and 2) keep it so the flow in the tank doesn't rock (even slightly) the structure and pipes?

 

[Toomnymods]

Need to make a list of electrical demands for UNDER tank electrical. I'm going to have all lighting electrical (2x400W MH systems and probably some T5's) all above the tank. IF i have any powerheads, those too will be plugged in above.

So under tank here's my list so far, let me know if you think i've missed something:

1.return pump (outlet and light switch)
2.skimmer (outlet and light switch)
3.heater (outlet and Lightswitch???)
4.chiller (outlet and lightswitch????)
5.UV sterilizer (maybe?) (outlet and lightswitch)
6. controllers? (outlet)

I'm trying to spec out how many GFCI outlets i'll want under the tank and how many light switches i'll want too.

so far, above, that is 6 outlets and 5 light switches. At this time, my design can support what looks like 6 light switches and 2outlet receptacles (i.e. 12 plugs).


thoughts?

Why mess with lightswitches?? Just another area that can be corroded by saltwater or possible fire hazard. Imo use neptune apex controller and thier eb8's to control everything electronic

 

[prsnlty]

Why mess with lightswitches?? Just another area that can be corroded by saltwater or possible fire hazard. Imo use neptune apex controller and thier eb8's to control everything electronic

I agree! I lived for a long time without an apex and had a lot of light switches. The Apex is wonderful to say the least. You have complete control over every single individual outlet . You can set timers, alarms and soooooo much more. Possibilities are truly endless. They come up for sale all the time on the selling dry goods forum. You will need 2 eb8s but it is worth every penny.

 

[MarsRover]

It looks great! I just hope they line up to the bulkheads just right. How do you plan to do that?

Pray just kidding...

I made a to-scale mock up of the hole pattern and set the tubes in it before casting them in concrete. Also, I have only 45degree couplers on the bottom so when I put the connecting tubes between that and the bulkhead ther will be some play to rectify any small off set.

As for rocking, I plan to glue the standpipes to the bulkheads and the concrete-cano will be resting on the bottom of the tank, part of its base covered with the sand bed.

If in a bad scenario I need to ever remove, I can unscrew bulkheads from bottom and lift the entire structure.....without draining the tank if I do it right.....

Why mess with lightswitches?? Just another area that can be corroded by saltwater or possible fire hazard. Imo use neptune apex controller and thier eb8's to control everything electronic

As for light switches, I will have them sequestered to a dry location under the tank. That and lots of GFCI's.

I'm not going to by an apex. The reason being that I want to make my own controllers so it is FULLY customizable, even more so than apex offers.

The switches are present until I get around to that. Then switches one out and controllers go in their place.

 

[prsnlty]

Pray just kidding...

I made a to-scale mock up of the hole pattern and set the tubes in it before casting them in concrete. Also, I have only 45degree couplers on the bottom so when I put the connecting tubes between that and the bulkhead ther will be some play to rectify any small off set.

As for rocking, I plan to glue the standpipes to the bulkheads and the concrete-cano will be resting on the bottom of the tank, part of its base covered with the sand bed.

If in a bad scenario I need to ever remove, I can unscrew bulkheads from bottom and lift the entire structure.....without draining the tank if I do it right.....




As for light switches, I will have them sequestered to a dry location under the tank. That and lots of GFCI's.

I'm not going to by an apex. The reason being that I want to make my own controllers so it is FULLY customizable, even more so than apex offers.

The switches are present until I get around to that. Then switches one out and controllers go in their place.

Sounds good

 

[justingraham]

Well I would do two 20amp circuits for your tank
With the first outlet in both being gfci then use normal outlets the rest of the way as they would be protected by the first gfci outlet esp if ur just going to replace them anyway get the same coverage for half the price but that's me u are a smarter man then me

I would also split the load on wach circuit so if one does pop u don't loose all ur flow or all ur lighting

 

[MarsRover]

Well I would do two 20amp circuits for your tank
With the first outlet in both being gfci then use normal outlets the rest of the way as they would be protected by the first gfci outlet esp if ur just going to replace them anyway get the same coverage for half the price but that's me u are a smarter man then me

I would also split the load on wach circuit so if one does pop u don't loose all ur flow or all ur lighting

hrmm... yeah i'll have to think about my electrical a little down the road. still haven't gotten to doing the wiring yet (as you'll see the electrical conduit is still hanging lol)

Cast the concrete and leveled the space this past weekend:



Also got the "overflow" pipe i'm going to use around my standpipes at the top! I think this is plenty enough linear overflow length provided enough inflow to the tank!:

 

[805reef]

That's a huge fitting! looks expensive!

Where is that going to go? Above the standpipe base structure rocks you built? or around them?

 

[Vahanyos]

phew! busy day....

today, among other things, i think i finished the first cut of the tank CAD, I finished setting up my watering station, we moved my current tank out of the way and did demolition day 3!

Here are the color coded items:
1. blue: Full syphon standpipe/drain
2. green: open channel standpipe
3. orange: emergency standpipe
4. red: Skimmer stand
5. fuchsia: skimmer footprint extended the height of the skimmer. Pink band in the middle is the required operating water level
6. Grey: Ecotech marine vectra M1 envelope plus return pipes and manifold
7. Turquoise: chiller and fans to ensure there is enough flow in the cabinet area
8. 12 outlets hooked up to and hidden behind raisable louver style light switch panel
9. Orange box: 10 gallon ATO and support structure. Elevated above everything so it will be a passive system with a float valve etc.. etc.. the structure holding it up is the sump tank and additional structure as you can see. under the structure is open for storage of chemicals plenty of room for reactors if i want to grow in to that

still gotta pull that knotty pine off the wall but that'll take all of ten minutes. Got the hard part done: drywall and fracking popcorn ceiling.

what do you all think???!!?

Noob question here.... I don't have a sump but slowly planning one now..

In the first pic, where your returns come from the top and just dip directly in your tank... would this create a siphon back into the tubes if you were to turn your return pump off? Or is this simply a plumbing fix? Putting one of those valves that only allow one way traffic with the water?

Thanks!

 

[MarsRover]

That's a huge fitting! looks expensive!

Where is that going to go? Above the standpipe base structure rocks you built? or around them?

It actually was surprisingly inexpensive.... $25 to my door.

After modifying it (like cutting it in half and thinning it down biggly on a lathe) it will be mounted around the top of my standpipes, right where they jog back out at the top there. It will serve as my overflow box. I'll be capping the bottom with acrylic and having the pvc standpipes pass through that.

Noob question here.... I don't have a sump but slowly planning one now..

In the first pic, where your returns come from the top and just dip directly in your tank... would this create a siphon back into the tubes if you were to turn your return pump off? Or is this simply a plumbing fix? Putting one of those valves that only allow one way traffic with the water?

Thanks!

Hrmmm okay trying to understand your question. "...and just dip directly in your tank..." by tank i'm assuming you mean sump.

Rules of physics: 1. You can't win the game 2. You can't break even in the game 3. You can't quit the game

A Siphon will not run uphill only. A Siphon can only go up-hill as far as will then runs back down hill even further. This is why when you put a hose in your tank to siphon, and you then raise the draining side, flow reduces as you get to the tank's water level and then stops at or above the tanks water level.

This is all to say that no is the answer to your question. If my return pump turns off, all that happens is whatever water that is left in the colorful standpipes in my picture will drain into the sump and then be dry until the return pump turns back on. This is the case regardless of valves. Water will never siphon back uphill from my sump up into the display tank.

Hope this helps!

 

[Vahanyos]

It actually was surprisingly inexpensive.... $25 to my door.

After modifying it (like cutting it in half and thinning it down biggly on a lathe) it will be mounted around the top of my standpipes, right where they jog back out at the top there. It will serve as my overflow box. I'll be capping the bottom with acrylic and having the pvc standpipes pass through that.




Hrmmm okay trying to understand your question. "...and just dip directly in your tank..." by tank i'm assuming you mean sump.

Rules of physics: 1. You can't win the game 2. You can't break even in the game 3. You can't quit the game

A Siphon will not run uphill only. A Siphon can only go up-hill as far as will then runs back down hill even further. This is why when you put a hose in your tank to siphon, and you then raise the draining side, flow reduces as you get to the tank's water level and then stops at or above the tanks water level.

This is all to say that no is the answer to your question. If my return pump turns off, all that happens is whatever water that is left in the colorful standpipes in my picture will drain into the sump and then be dry until the return pump turns back on. This is the case regardless of valves. Water will never siphon back uphill from my sump up into the display tank.

Hope this helps!

Im actually referring to the grey pipes in your DT that are coming down on each corner - if your return pump is turned off, would the water be able to siphon back down those grey pipes until, let's say, the water level is matched with the actual opening of each of those pipes? That's what kind of throws me off lol.

 

[MarsRover]

Im actually referring to the grey pipes in your DT that are coming down on each corner - if your return pump is turned off, would the water be able to siphon back down those grey pipes until, let's say, the water level is matched with the actual opening of each of those pipes? That's what kind of throws me off lol.

Yes!!!!! If those tips are under water they certainly will suck water back down until the DT level lowers to allow air into the system and break the siphon. For that reason I will be putting one way valves in there to prevent that! But in all honesty, I also don't plan to have those tips so submerged. I don't want them so visible in the DT but I also don't want them blasting bubbles into the DT. Going to have to design on the fly there



Good eye

 

[R_C]

Great job so far! Following.

 

[MarsRover]

Great job so far! Following.

Welcome! Thanks for following!




Found out from AGE that the tank will be delivered the 25th! Guessing you're somewhere around then too @KingJason. Maybe we'll have to have tank parties?

 

[Vahanyos]

I heard drilling a little tiny hole in the pipe slightly UNDER where the water level will be, will prevent a full siphon. Soon as air hits it, it will stop the siphon. Or like you said, put a valve on the plumbing that only allows ONE way flow. If the power shuts off, the valve will just stop the water from going back the other direction

 

[chefjpaul]

Looking great, just a question, why didn't you just put a big header up and keep it 360* ?

 

[MarsRover]

well, this is at an intersection of two main load bearing walls. both spans are greater than 15'. No way to have made it 360 without doing a MAJOR reconstruction of the structure of the home.

That said, I could have gone a step inbetween what i have done and what the above suggests and made it a peninsula, keeping a post only at the "T" intersection of the two walls. Could have. But it would have been a lot more work than what i have done was, 1, and 2, i would have had a cabinet above/below to enclose the lights/sump respectively which makes this tank a structure in the middle of the place anyway. The piller i have on the other, non "T" side, is going to be thin compared to the width of the tank (not even 1/3 of that side). So i kept it that way for ease of construction, for symmetry, for convenience so i have a second means to pass things from the sump to the ceiling concealed, and lastly for additional support. When i build spacecraft, designing to the edge is what is necessary. When building houses, I put the largest safety factor i can afford.

 

[justingraham]

Look at melevs reef he has a awesome way to stop a syphon. I would recomend that way over a one way check valve in line that will more then likely fail.

 

[MarsRover]

Look at melevs reef he has a awesome way to stop a syphon. I would recomend that way over a one way check valve in line that will more then likely fail.

regardless of the situation, i never trust single point failures. Check valves are notorious weak points.

My plan originally was to conservatively ensure there is enough space in my sump to accommodate any possible water volume siphoned back from the return lines. That means not only accounting for the volume of water in the line, but also accounting for the top layers of water in the tank down to the very tip of the return nozzles.

My tank is (exterior dimensions) 2.5'x5'. A gallon of water is 0.133681 cubic feet. For every inch of depth of tank water, we have:
2.5'x5'x0.0833' = 1.0416 cubic feet ........... 1.0416 cubic feet / (0.133681 cubic feet/gal) = 7.79 gallons per 1" of depth in my tank (conservatively).

Thus, if no part of the tips of my return lines are below 1" from the top of the nominal water level of my full, overflowing tank (overflowing into the overflow box...) then i only need a very conservative reserve capacity in my sump of 8 gallons as contingency space for DT return line back siphon.



In a 40 breeder, base area measures, conservatively 36"x18" (3'x1.5') = 4.5 sqft.

1.0416 cubic feet (the volume of water i need to accommodate, as calculated above) means i need to reserve: 1.0416 cubic feet divided by 4.5sqft yields a required sump reserve depth of 2.777599992 for potential back siphon of the return lines, plus a little bit that will be in the lines prior to the back siphon starting...so call it 3" reserve depth in the sump.

Looking at these pictures:

First is of my sump and the anticipated operational water levels of the sump. In the instant the pump turns off, in a sump fully topped off by ATO (i.e. no evaporation effects i.e. most conservative estimate) the water in the last region (far right) will be approximately the same as the refugium level (Fuge chamber).

All of this is to say that the sump tank won't be anywhere near full.... but for the sake of argument, conservatism, etc.... lets say the sump is full, up to the deepest section of the sump, which is the filter sock area region (far left).

As you can see in the next photo, the measured height from the top of the center baffle in the filter sock-skimmer partition (the baffle which dictates the water level of the filter sock section, the highest section) to the rim of the tank is about 2.9375 inches. Lets call that 3"

Phew! Safe.

Thanks for double checking me folks! This is why i like to share so much. I appreciate people asking about things i haven't yet covered in writing on this thread because i might not have already thought about it!!!

Thanks again @Vahanyos & @justingraham for watching my back!