230 gallon in-wall, room divider, reef build

[Zachhll]

Following with a question. If your sealing the bulk head area what if you have a bulk head failure. You would never be able to change the bulkhead without draining the whole tank and removing all of the rock structure.

 

[MarsRover]

Following with a question. If your sealing the bulk head area what if you have a bulk head failure. You would never be able to change the bulkhead without draining the whole tank and removing all of the rock structure.

Not never......

Removing the whole rock structure, yes, draining the tank, not necessisarily.

But it regardless, it would be one heck of a PITA to deal with.

It's a bit too complicated to try and explain with out graphics and doing the CAD for it all would be a lot of work as well.

Suffice it to say that I do have a contingency plan in the event that I'd have to gain access to the bulk heads while the tank is full.....

 

[MarsRover]

Following with a question. If your sealing the bulk head area what if you have a bulk head failure. You would never be able to change the bulkhead without draining the whole tank and removing all of the rock structure.

@Zachhll

Okay, so i'm glad you brought this up......because thinking about it more, and having a nightmare, i realize I don't like the solution i had come up with before for this situation.... so i'm on a flight and i started brainstorming other ideas and i think i'm landing on this solution..

in spaceflight, we like to be what is called 2 fault tolerant....that means that you can have 1 failure and things still work as they should.....the second failure in the same fault line is when you actually have a problem....

so here was the previous idea..... but the bulkheads are exposed to the bulk of the water volume so in the event of a leak...it'd be bad...

so here is what i am thinking now:

I'd like to have the bulk heads be "dry" in the sense that the cavity they occupy will be air filled like @prsnlty has.
so i'll take the 8" to 4" coupler and mill out spaces for 3" pvc pipe for the bulk head "lobes". seal it all up, and seal it to the bottom of the tank.

carry the 4" pipe to the top. Use the 8" straight coupler, modified with a cap on the bottom to seal off the bulkhead cavity full of air and make the overflow box just the top.

this way, in order for a bulk head leak to occur: first fault would have to be the seal between the 8"to 4" coupler and then the bottom of the tank & or the upper sealed cap in the 8" straight coupler. Then that would cause the bulkhead air cavity to fill with water. Then, the bulkheads would also have to be failed inorder for a real leak to occur. Also, if i needed to replace the bulkheads, presumably the leak between the standpipe work and the bulk tank water will be slow...... if it leaks in from the bottom that is.... if it leaks in from the top then i can stop that by stopping the return pump. Either way, evacuate the stand pipe cavity, get my long coral grabber thing, and after unscrewing the bulkhead from the bottom i can lift the top flange, pass a new seal through the hole in the bottom of the tank and close it all backup.

 

[Zachhll]

I see what your looking to do. I dont think @prsnlty overflow is air filled. Unless im missing something the overflow is open too the bulkheads. so water could go all the way to the bottom. As for your design it would protect the bulkhead from water but if the bulkhead its self fails(Cracks) it can leak back into air filled space and below your tank. I understand that you are trying to make it smaller and not take up so much space. Also i wouldn't be concerned with the water in the full height of the overflow. With the flow you will need need it would get circulated in the overflow. With your new design you still wouldn't be able to change a bulk head without removing all water to the point where you seal it. which looks half way. i personally would run the pipe the whole way just not worry about the water in the overflow you could make your main drain flush at the bulk head so anything at the bottom gets sucked out. You would just have to make sure your sump can hold the full volume of the pipe and cut the rock to with the full width pipe. On your size tank you could till have plenty of live rock.

 

[prsnlty]

I see what your looking to do. I dont think @prsnlty overflow is air filled. Unless im missing something the overflow is open too the bulkheads. so water could go all the way to the bottom. As for your design it would protect the bulkhead from water but if the bulkhead its self fails(Cracks) it can leak back into air filled space and below your tank. I understand that you are trying to make it smaller and not take up so much space. Also i wouldn't be concerned with the water in the full height of the overflow. With the flow you will need need it would get circulated in the overflow. With your new design you still wouldn't be able to change a bulk head without removing all water to the point where you seal it. which looks half way. i personally would run the pipe the whole way just not worry about the water in the overflow you could make your main drain flush at the bulk head so anything at the bottom gets sucked out. You would just have to make sure your sump can hold the full volume of the pipe and cut the rock to with the full width pipe. On your size tank you could till have plenty of live rock.

That's correct my overflows are open all the way to the bottom and filled with water. They circulate very well . My return column on the other hand is air filled in the center. At the bulkhead the free-standing return column is dry as is the whole 3/4 return line. It is sealed at the bottom and it is capped and sealed at the top . if you look closely you can see where the cap is. I did it this way so I could disassemble it in case I ever had a problem with the plumbing but I did not want water getting into the center part because I was afraid of not enough flow through it.

 

[prsnlty]

My overflows and return are also separate from each other as well. Yes I have water all the way to the bottom on my overflows. My return pipe however is dry within the rock column

 

[MarsRover]

I see what your looking to do. I dont think @prsnlty overflow is air filled. Unless im missing something the overflow is open too the bulkheads. so water could go all the way to the bottom. As for your design it would protect the bulkhead from water but if the bulkhead its self fails(Cracks) it can leak back into air filled space and below your tank. I understand that you are trying to make it smaller and not take up so much space. Also i wouldn't be concerned with the water in the full height of the overflow. With the flow you will need need it would get circulated in the overflow. With your new design you still wouldn't be able to change a bulk head without removing all water to the point where you seal it. which looks half way. i personally would run the pipe the whole way just not worry about the water in the overflow you could make your main drain flush at the bulk head so anything at the bottom gets sucked out. You would just have to make sure your sump can hold the full volume of the pipe and cut the rock to with the full width pipe. On your size tank you could till have plenty of live rock.

I don't know if my hasty post really got across what I meant. My apologies. I'm working on CAD and will post later what I meant in full technicolor....but...what you said and prsnlty said leads me to a new question...

My overflows and return are also separate from each other as well. Yes I have water all the way to the bottom on my overflows. My return pipe however is dry within the rock column

@prsnlty do you have all your return standpipes going to the top like mine? From what @Zachhll said, it sounds like you both are talking about NOT having a stand pipe on one of the bulkheads and THAT is what provides the circulation at the bottom of your overflow "box".?

If you do this, then how do you prevent the plumming water sound of water falling from the top of your DT water level allllll the way to the bottom of your overflow box? Do you have a gate valve on the under side of the tank on that standpipe-less bulkhead to reduce water flow so the water level in your overflow box rises up to near the DT water level and then adjust the valve to match your return pump so that your overflow boxe's water level remains near the DT's water level? I guess this is a means to prevent the plummet and make sure there is circulation at the base of the overflow box. But you lose the benifit of the surface skimming of overflow boxes.

I thought people generally do standpipes on all, let their overflow box fill up until it reaches the top of the stand pipes in the overflow box, which is at a level slightly below the DT water level, and let the siphon stand pipe suck the water down to the sump? This way you get surface skimming benifit? But you also get the inevitable stagnant water (and detritus) at the bottom of your overflow box because there is no way a fullsiphon standpipe is going to pull stuff from 30" of water below its oriface..

This is why I decided to do what @prsnlty was talking about with an air box base to my overflow box.

Photos soon....

Thanks folks! Really enjoying discussing the details!

 

[MarsRover]

This is more representative of what I was thinking. The standpipe "cover" or overflow water/air box is made translucent so you can see the water to air partition and and standpipes.
Non translucent:

Translucent:

Air-water partition highlighted in orange:

Closeup:

So it is kind of like coast to coast box styles how they don't go the full height of the tank, but, it's centered in the tank....

 

[Zachhll]

Ah ok so your pipe would go all the way to the top. To answer your question about the water noise. I personally wouldn't make them stand pipes I would use a bean animal setup rather then stand pipe. Stand pipe is more of an older way of doing things. I personally run a herbie on both of my tanks same idea just all flow is through one pipe instead of two and still have a emergency. You control the water height by adjusting a gate valve so that the water in the overflow is still close to the top. Your pretty much tuning it to match your return pump flow rate. I would seriously consider switching to a bean animal. It would make this a lot easier you wouldn't need as much room in the overflow box. The main siphon line doesn't need any pipe on the bulk head as long as your sump can hold all of the water from the overflow. Then you would have a second pipe that is like a standpipe that would have a little water going through it. This line would have a line coming out of the top that would stop the air flow if water got to high. It would then turn into a full siphon. Then one pipe strait to the top a lower than the max water line that would only be used as emergency line

 

[prsnlty]

I have standpipes in my overflows. This keeps the water up to the top of the standpipes. Also (cuz I was lazy at the time) to deal with the noise of water going into the standpipe I put Maggie Mufflers at the top of mine. Now you don't hear them at all nor do you hear water trickling over the overflows. It worked so I just left it that way.

I actually have 3 returns. One that is the free-standing one that is covered in Rock. The other two hang over the back of my tank between the overflows. One of which is one third from the top but pointing to the top and the other is a sand bed spray bar. It goes down to the sand bed and has several holes across the top of the pipe and it's capped at the end. This keeps water flowing through my rocks so I don't need power heads down there.

 

[prsnlty]

Ah ok so your pipe would go all the way to the top. To answer your question about the water noise. I personally wouldn't make them stand pipes I would use a bean animal setup rather then stand pipe. Stand pipe is more of an older way of doing things. I personally run a herbie on both of my tanks same idea just all flow is through one pipe instead of two and still have a emergency. You control the water height by adjusting a gate valve so that the water in the overflow is still close to the top. Your pretty much tuning it to match your return pump flow rate. I would seriously consider switching to a bean animal. It would make this a lot easier you wouldn't need as much room in the overflow box. The main siphon line doesn't need any pipe on the bulk head as long as your sump can hold all of the water from the overflow. Then you would have a second pipe that is like a standpipe that would have a little water going through it. This line would have a line coming out of the top that would stop the air flow if water got to high. It would then turn into a full siphon. Then one pipe strait to the top a lower than the max water line that would only be used as emergency line

I agree.... if I could do mine all over again I would have gone with an animal as well and/or a ghost overflow on the back glass. What I have works I just have no emergency overflow.

 

[KJAG]

Ah ok so your pipe would go all the way to the top. To answer your question about the water noise. I personally wouldn't make them stand pipes I would use a bean animal setup rather then stand pipe. Stand pipe is more of an older way of doing things. I personally run a herbie on both of my tanks same idea just all flow is through one pipe instead of two and still have a emergency. You control the water height by adjusting a gate valve so that the water in the overflow is still close to the top. Your pretty much tuning it to match your return pump flow rate. I would seriously consider switching to a bean animal. It would make this a lot easier you wouldn't need as much room in the overflow box. The main siphon line doesn't need any pipe on the bulk head as long as your sump can hold all of the water from the overflow. Then you would have a second pipe that is like a standpipe that would have a little water going through it. This line would have a line coming out of the top that would stop the air flow if water got to high. It would then turn into a full siphon. Then one pipe strait to the top a lower than the max water line that would only be used as emergency line

Looks to me like he has a siphon, an open channel and an emergency. How is this not a Bean? The only issue I see is the standpipes look to be terminating waaay too far into the sump, unless the bottom of those pipes is where the sump water level will be.

 

[Zachhll]

Looks to me like he has a siphon, an open channel and an emergency. How is this not a Bean? The only issue I see is the standpipes look to be terminating waaay too far into the sump, unless the bottom of those pipes is where the sump water level will be.

I think your confused with his old tank I'm pretty sure his new tank isn't even set up yet. He has said he was going to use stand pipes for this tank. Just because he has three pipes doesn't mean he's useing them as a bean animal.

 

[KJAG]

I think your confused with his old tank I'm pretty sure his new tank isn't even set up yet. He has said he was going to use stand pipes for this tank. Just because he has three pipes doesn't mean he's useing them as a bean animal.

It isn't really relevant if it's set up yet. I'm looking at the CAD in this thread. Can you elaborate on why it isn't/won't be functioning as a Bean?

 

[Zachhll]

It isn't really relevant if it's set up yet. I'm looking at the CAD in this thread. Can you elaborate on why it isn't/won't be functioning as a Bean?

The difference would be that they would not be at same height and it doesn't have a gate valve. Also your emergency normally is facing up. In a through the bottom plumbing it would be just pipe no fittings

 

[KJAG]

The difference would be that they would not be at same height and it doesn't have a gate valve. Also your emergency normally is facing up. In a through the bottom plumbing it would be just pipe no fittings

I don't understand ."They" and "It"? Pretty broad use of pronouns. Can you be more specific?
"Through the bottom plumbing it would be just pipe and no fittings?" In the CAD there looks to be both fittings and bulkheads.
Can you explain what you mean?
Also, earlier in the thread he has an image of a valve on the siphon, clearly pictured in the CAD, along with a planned intent to have a siphon, an OC and and a dry emergency (I think he bailed on routing the siphon to a QT on the following page where he has the valve pictured, thankfully, since it was a bad idea)
I agree though that the emergency should be upturned. I don't have time to file through the thread to see if that's how he plans on plumbing the emergency standpipe.

 

[Zachhll]

I don't understand ."They" and "It"? Pretty broad use of pronouns. Can you be more specific?
"Through the bottom plumbing it would be just pipe and no fittings?" In the CAD there looks to be both fittings and bulkheads.
Can you explain what you mean?
Also, earlier in the thread he has an image of a valve on the siphon, clearly pictured in the CAD, along with a planned intent to have a siphon, an OC and and a dry emergency (I think he bailed on routing the siphon to a QT on the following page where he has the valve pictured, thankfully, since it was a bad idea)
I agree though that the emergency should be upturned. I don't have time to file through the thread to see if that's how he plans on plumbing the emergency standpipe.

If your looking to learn more about different overflow types do some searching on this site their are some great write ups on the different types. I'm not going to keep fill up the op's thread trying to describe this to you when you won't even take the time to read the posts in this thread. If the op has any questions I'd be glad to explain further. I am by no means an expert at overflows. I have built multiple tanks with different types and have read a lot of forum postings about the different types

 

[805reef]

If your looking to learn more about different overflow types do some searching on this site their are some great write ups on the different types. I'm not going to keep fill up the op's thread trying to describe this to you when you won't even take the time to read the posts in this thread. If the op has any questions I'd be glad to explain further. I am by no means an expert at overflows. I have built multiple tanks with different types and have read a lot of forum postings about the different types

The OP has stated a couple times in this thread that he will be running a bean animal.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

The OP has stated a couple times in this thread that he will be running a bean animal.

I have seen him state this a few times also.

But in regards to the CAD drawings OP, you have all 3 of your drains with a "durso" style top and all are at the same height. Is this just for ease of drawing it? As I think that's where the confusion is coming from. To be a bean animal drain you need to have the drains either at different heights or with different tops on them or both. There is many ways to set it up as a bean animal but if you do plan to set them up exactly as shown in the CAD drawings then it wont work as a bean.

 

[MarsRover]

Ah ok so your pipe would go all the way to the top. To answer your question about the water noise. I personally wouldn't make them stand pipes I would use a bean animal setup rather then stand pipe. Stand pipe is more of an older way of doing things. I personally run a herbie on both of my tanks same idea just all flow is through one pipe instead of two and still have a emergency. You control the water height by adjusting a gate valve so that the water in the overflow is still close to the top. Your pretty much tuning it to match your return pump flow rate. I would seriously consider switching to a bean animal. It would make this a lot easier you wouldn't need as much room in the overflow box. The main siphon line doesn't need any pipe on the bulk head as long as your sump can hold all of the water from the overflow. Then you would have a second pipe that is like a standpipe that would have a little water going through it. This line would have a line coming out of the top that would stop the air flow if water got to high. It would then turn into a full siphon. Then one pipe strait to the top a lower than the max water line that would only be used as emergency line

Looks to me like he has a siphon, an open channel and an emergency. How is this not a Bean? The only issue I see is the standpipes look to be terminating waaay too far into the sump, unless the bottom of those pipes is where the sump water level will be.

It isn't really relevant if it's set up yet. I'm looking at the CAD in this thread. Can you elaborate on why it isn't/won't be functioning as a Bean?

I don't understand ."They" and "It"? Pretty broad use of pronouns. Can you be more specific?
"Through the bottom plumbing it would be just pipe and no fittings?" In the CAD there looks to be both fittings and bulkheads.
Can you explain what you mean?
Also, earlier in the thread he has an image of a valve on the siphon, clearly pictured in the CAD, along with a planned intent to have a siphon, an OC and and a dry emergency (I think he bailed on routing the siphon to a QT on the following page where he has the valve pictured, thankfully, since it was a bad idea)
I agree though that the emergency should be upturned. I don't have time to file through the thread to see if that's how he plans on plumbing the emergency standpipe.

Yes I bailed on the routing to the QT.

The OP has stated a couple times in this thread that he will be running a bean animal.

I agree with @Shores805 and @805reef.

This is intended to be bean animal. I don't understand how it's not. Just because I said the word standpipe doesn't mean it isn't a bean animal. Im pretty sure bean animal actually called these standpipes...I could be wrong...


Yes, thank you for the input in regards to the emergency stand pipe. I will do make it free and vertically open. My CAD thus far does NOT reflect this. I also will have the little air tube on the OCstand pipe as per beananimal. Again, just didn't CAD this.

@Shores805 I sincerely appreciate the comment about my dump tubes in the sump being too low. May I ask why? Are you saying their openings need to be above the water level of the sump? How come?

Also, is the stand pipe for the full siphon tube required? I suppose not....I just don't consider that to traditionally a siphon so much as just a drain, in which boundary layers won't necessisarily be fully developed (which in siphons they necessisarily are fully developed which is favorable to max flow) I believe that it is the U in the top of the stand pipe that enables the true siphon.