230 gallon in-wall, room divider, reef build

[MarsRover]

I have seen him state this a few times also.

But in regards to the CAD drawings OP, you have all 3 of your drains with a "durso" style top and all are at the same height. Is this just for ease of drawing it? As I think that's where the confusion is coming from. To be a bean animal drain you need to have the drains either at different heights or with different tops on them or both. There is many ways to set it up as a bean animal but if you do plan to set them up exactly as shown in the CAD drawings then it wont work as a bean.

So the durso on all of them was for convienence. I will correct the cad when I get home to clear confusion. I read bean animals write up. I didn't realize different heights other than emergency was necessiary

 

[KJAG]

If your looking to learn more about different overflow types do some searching on this site their are some great write ups on the different types. I'm not going to keep fill up the op's thread trying to describe this to you when you won't even take the time to read the posts in this thread. If the op has any questions I'd be glad to explain further. I am by no means an expert at overflows. I have built multiple tanks with different types and have read a lot of forum postings about the different types

On the contrary, I read the thread, as indicated by my observation of his valve on the siphon in the CAD(which you incorrectly stated wasn't there), as well as his stated intent to run this system as a Bean. Not to mention, anyone familiar with this system could identify it as a Bean in two seconds from a quick glance at the CAD. My statement about not having time to file back through the thread was simply in reference to how he was planning on plumbing the top of his dry emergency drain. Ive probably plumbed a dozen Beans over the years, for my tanks and for others, so Im extremely familiar with this setup, but I wouldnt call anyone an "expert" on this design, including myself, aside from Jim and Bean over at RC. For the integrity of the forum, perhaps familiarize yourself with this type of overflow before inaccurately informing people that their system isn't what it obviously is. Here you go.
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

[KJAG]

Yes I bailed on the routing to the QT.



I agree with @Shores805 and @805reef.

This is intended to be bean animal. I don't understand how it's not. Just because I said the word standpipe doesn't mean it isn't a bean animal. Im pretty sure bean animal actually called these standpipes...I could be wrong...


Yes, thank you for the input in regards to the emergency stand pipe. I will do make it free and vertically open. My CAD thus far does NOT reflect this. I also will have the little air tube on the OCstand pipe as per beananimal. Again, just didn't CAD this.

@Shores805 I sincerely appreciate the comment about my dump tubes in the sump being too low. May I ask why? Are you saying their openings need to be above the water level of the sump? How come?

Also, is the stand pipe for the full siphon tube required? I suppose not....I just don't consider that to traditionally a siphon so much as just a drain, in which boundary layers won't necessisarily be fully developed (which in siphons they necessisarily are fully developed which is favorable to max flow) I believe that it is the U in the top of the stand pipe that enables the true siphon.

The correct term for the drains is standpipes. You arent wrong. The member above is simply confused on the term.

Re: the drains into the sump: the recommended termination into the waterline is no more than 1". Sounds like a trivial variable, but it isn't. You already have 90 degree runs on your standpipes, which is definitely less than ideal however may operate appropriately, however air will have difficulty purging from the siphon if you terminate them too deep into your sump. The bottoms of the drains can be above the waterline to operate as designed, but its not recommended simply due to noise. It is known as the silent/failsafe overflow after all. Plumb your standpipes so they all terminate, ideally a half inch into the waterline in your sump.
As an aside, dont forget to install your airline so that it is above the dry emergency, but below the rim of the tank.

 

[Zachhll]

I'm not arguing about this. I went back and looked, yes their is a valve. I see where we both got confused. But their has been multiple different cad drawings and the most recent one looks just like a durso stand pipe vs a bean. In a bean animal that is through the bottom of the tank vs the back you don't need a standpipe at the top of each pipe just the open channel. They can just come out of the bulkhead with a piece of pipe no fittings needed. For both the syphon and the emergency. @Shores805 have you seen a durso stand pipe style overflow before ? It is what comes on all standard drilled tanks from aqueon and marineland. Take a look at this link
http://melevsreef.com/articles/frag-tank-sump It is the same design he had in the cad drawing which you can see is called a durso. @MarsRover by eliminating the fittings on the main syphon line the syphon will start much quicker as it has a lot easier time removing all the air. You can pick any height on the pipe length just make sure your sump can hold the water. Here is a video of my setup on one of my tanks it is a herbie style only difference with a bean is it is missing the open channel.

 

[MarsRover]

I'm not arguing about this. I went back and looked, yes their is a valve. I see where we both got confused. But their has been multiple different cad drawings and the most recent one looks just like a durso stand pipe vs a bean. In a bean animal that is through the bottom of the tank vs the back you don't need a standpipe at the top of each pipe just the open channel. They can just come out of the bulkhead with a piece of pipe no fittings needed. For both the syphon and the emergency. @Shores805 have you seen a durso stand pipe style overflow before ? It is what comes on all standard drilled tanks from aqueon and marineland. Take a look at this link
http://melevsreef.com/articles/frag-tank-sump It is the same design he had in the cad drawing which you can see is called a durso. @MarsRover by eliminating the fittings on the main syphon line the syphon will start much quicker as it has a lot easier time removing all the air. You can pick any height on the pipe length just make sure your sump can hold the water. Here is a video of my setup on one of my tanks it is a herbie style only difference with a bean is it is missing the open channel.

hrmm.... i'm not sure i agree with this.... i have studied mass transfers and fluid flows in closed cross sections many times and i'm pretty sure having the "durso" in the full siphon line helps to maintain a fully developed velocity profile that is provided by a true siphon. I could be wrong. It'd be really cool to setup a scientific test on this....i just might when the tank arrives.

That said, i'm updating the cad to have a higher fidelity overflow design so you all can see EXACTLY what am planning, and we can have a discussion regarding the design as i intend it to be at this time.

 

[Zachhll]

hrmm.... i'm not sure i agree with this.... i have studied mass transfers and fluid flows in closed cross sections many times and i'm pretty sure having the "durso" in the full siphon line helps to maintain a fully developed velocity profile that is provided by a true siphon. I could be wrong. It'd be really cool to setup a scientific test on this....i just might when the tank arrives.

That said, i'm updating the cad to have a higher fidelity overflow design so you all can see EXACTLY what am planning, and we can have a discussion regarding the design as i intend it to be at this time.

You could be right. I by no means designed it this way. Borrowed it from others on here. I will say that all of Red Sea reefer tanks run this design. I have had this tank running for over three years and water level is constant haven't adjusted the gate valve since last time I set up the tank. Even turning off the pump and restarting the syphon water goes right back to where it was. It is dead silent as you can hear in the video.

 

[MarsRover]

BLUE: Full Siphon Standpipe
GREEN: Open Channel Standpipe
ORANGE: Emergency Standpipe
GREY: Return line

ALL lines have gate valves.

Green Open Channel has airline tubing coming from the top of the standpipe and the other end's tip is .25" ABOVE the height of the emergency standpipe's opening.

I'm not arguing about this. I went back and looked, yes their is a valve. I see where we both got confused. But their has been multiple different cad drawings and the most recent one looks just like a durso stand pipe vs a bean. In a bean animal that is through the bottom of the tank vs the back you don't need a standpipe at the top of each pipe just the open channel. They can just come out of the bulkhead with a piece of pipe no fittings needed. For both the syphon and the emergency. @Shores805 have you seen a durso stand pipe style overflow before ? It is what comes on all standard drilled tanks from aqueon and marineland. Take a look at this link
http://melevsreef.com/articles/frag-tank-sump It is the same design he had in the cad drawing which you can see is called a durso. @MarsRover by eliminating the fittings on the main syphon line the syphon will start much quicker as it has a lot easier time removing all the air. You can pick any height on the pipe length just make sure your sump can hold the water. Here is a video of my setup on one of my tanks it is a herbie style only difference with a bean is it is missing the open channel.

@Zachhll as someone who was very adamant that my design wasn't a true bean animal, directing me to read literature i have already read extensively several times, and then to argue that i should deviate from it in your way, makes me less inclined to listen. Regardless of how good, or bad, your idea may be.
Also, i looked at your video, and it doesn't look like you have your drain at the bottom of your overflow box. I don't see any naked bulkhead. It looks like you have a standpipe with an open top (no durso), and an emergency pipe with an open top as well, just a bit taller.


My current tank runs what you have, a hole at the bottom of the overflow box. At this time, i think i am going to stick with the classic bean animal design, modifying from their original "coast to coast" box style (which does not go to the bottom either...) an adaptation of the concept to suit an "island coast" box. Thats just what i'm calling it right now I imagine it as taking the "coast to coast" and making the "snake" eat its own tail

for reference: Bean Animals post:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

 

[Zachhll]

Ok last post here. I'm not saying your design won't work I was stating you wouldn't be able to change a bulkhead in the event of a failure. You have changed your design from what you first showed. I still not sure you would be able to do this. But it's your tank. As for mine having pipe on the syphon yes it does. I never side mine doesn't. I simply stated you don't need it. In my case it is so the full amount of water in the over flow doesn't go into the sump. Also in your current design the syphon and the open channel are same height they are normally different. I'm not here to say anything is bad about your design. Just trying to help I have had and seen others have failures. I'll admit I was wrong as I didn't remember you having gate valves and seeing all three standpipes at same height made me think you were running a 3 durso standpipe setup. And if you look at @prsnlty post I'm pretty sure they thought u were running a durso like they have. By changing parts of your design you have corrected a lot of the things I have brought up. I'm not sure why you think I'm not being helpful yes the other guy was annoying me. I have done nothing but try to help you so I'm going to move on. Good luck on your new tank and either way it is going to be an awesome tank congrats.

 

[Zachhll]

Also I found a post from bean saying the open channel is higher later on in the expanded thread later on in 2009 due to people having issues with syphon not starting.

 

[KJAG]

Ok last post here. I'm not saying your design won't work I was stating you wouldn't be able to change a bulkhead in the event of a failure. You have changed your design from what you first showed. I still not sure you would be able to do this. But it's your tank. As for mine having pipe on the syphon yes it does. I never side mine doesn't. I simply stated you don't need it. In my case it is so the full amount of water in the over flow doesn't go into the sump. Also in your current design the syphon and the open channel are same height they are normally different. I'm not here to say anything is bad about your design. Just trying to help I have had and seen others have failures. I'll admit I was wrong as I didn't remember you having gate valves and seeing all three standpipes at same height made me think you were running a 3 durso standpipe setup. And if you look at @prsnlty post I'm pretty sure they thought u were running a durso like they have. By changing parts of your design you have corrected a lot of the things I have brought up. I'm not sure why you think I'm not being helpful yes the other guy was annoying me. I have done nothing but try to help you so I'm going to move on. Good luck on your new tank and either way it is going to be an awesome tank congrats.

Lol. I suppose I'm that guy who was annoying you. Well the truth hurts I guess. My goal on the forum is simple. I don't care about forum accolades or "likes," I just want accurate information around here, not only for myself, but so rampant conjecture that is factually wrong doesn't take hold and influence other hobbyist's builds. Sometimes awkward exchanges are simply unavoidable. It just can't all be "good vibes and high fives" when the integrity of information is at stake. You mentioned earlier that you filed back and saw that there was a valve on his siphon, and that you "saw where we were both confused."
Dude, respectfully, I wasn't even slightly confused about his system. This is elementary, basic Bean overflow stuff. The only thing i was and still am, confused about, is some of your statements. For example, you state that the siphon and OC standpipes are "normally different." Well, define normally, because that's just flat out Wrong. If the original design criteria is followed to a Tee, there is Zero reason to raise the open channel and the siphon and OC can indeed fucntion flawlessly at the same height. In All of these systems I've plumbed, I have never once had to raise the OC. Mine are all at the same level and operate flawlessly.The same goes for many, many others. Bean's recommendation to do so in the screengrab you posted is not an "upgrade" of his original design. It's simply a "fix" for those who for a variety of reasons (I can name a bunch off the top of my head) are having siphon startup issues.
Here's a good read on some of those variables.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2624995

Again, the differentials in height of the standpipes are not and never were an upgrade to the original design. It's just necessary for some who's systems are not true to the original design.

However, @MarsRover, raising the OC a little bit in your system is not a bad idea since you have 90 degree runs on your standpipes.

 

[MarsRover]

Ok last post here. I'm not saying your design won't work I was stating you wouldn't be able to change a bulkhead in the event of a failure. You have changed your design from what you first showed. I still not sure you would be able to do this. But it's your tank. As for mine having pipe on the syphon yes it does. I never side mine doesn't. I simply stated you don't need it. In my case it is so the full amount of water in the over flow doesn't go into the sump. Also in your current design the syphon and the open channel are same height they are normally different. I'm not here to say anything is bad about your design. Just trying to help I have had and seen others have failures. I'll admit I was wrong as I didn't remember you having gate valves and seeing all three standpipes at same height made me think you were running a 3 durso standpipe setup. And if you look at @prsnlty post I'm pretty sure they thought u were running a durso like they have. By changing parts of your design you have corrected a lot of the things I have brought up. I'm not sure why you think I'm not being helpful yes the other guy was annoying me. I have done nothing but try to help you so I'm going to move on. Good luck on your new tank and either way it is going to be an awesome tank congrats.

@Zachhll, hey man, i wasn't bothered, nor offended by you in any way no worries man. I do however think that Shores805 is right when they say

I just want accurate information around here, not only for myself, but so rampant conjecture that is factually wrong doesn't take hold and influence other hobbyist's builds. Sometimes awkward exchanges are simply unavoidable. It just can't all be "good vibes and high fives" when the integrity of information is at stake.

I just ranted about this exact thing on another thread a couple days ago. You really did assert things in a way that you "knew" when, we now see, you didn't know so well. Information and exchange of information is extremely important, especially in today's world. If you want to share your information, just be sure you include information like @Shores805 says about how the thing you recommended about the OC being higher is a FIX and not the NEW WAY. You don't have to go man, Shores will be nice...er..... just be careful about how you share your opinions and don't state them as facts and i think Shores will be nicer.

Lol. I suppose I'm that guy who was annoying you. Well the truth hurts I guess. My goal on the forum is simple. I don't care about forum accolades or "likes," I just want accurate information around here, not only for myself, but so rampant conjecture that is factually wrong doesn't take hold and influence other hobbyist's builds. Sometimes awkward exchanges are simply unavoidable. It just can't all be "good vibes and high fives" when the integrity of information is at stake. You mentioned earlier that you filed back and saw that there was a valve on his siphon, and that you "saw where we were both confused."
Dude, respectfully, I wasn't even slightly confused about his system. This is elementary, basic Bean overflow stuff. The only thing i was and still am, confused about, is some of your statements. For example, you state that the siphon and OC standpipes are "normally different." Well, define normally, because that's just flat out Wrong. If the original design criteria is followed to a Tee, there is Zero reason to raise the open channel and the siphon and OC can indeed fucntion flawlessly at the same height. In All of these systems I've plumbed, I have never once had to raise the OC. Mine are all at the same level and operate flawlessly.The same goes for many, many others. Bean's recommendation to do so in the screengrab you posted is not an "upgrade" of his original design. It's simply a "fix" for those who for a variety of reasons (I can name a bunch off the top of my head) are having siphon startup issues.

haha i had to like your post because i completely agree with what you are saying. Also, it makes complete sense to me why folks who can't get a full siphon going can be aided by raising the OC so that the siphon pipe can be further submerged to aid in the siphon initiation.

Thanks for all your help folks and i hope you all stick around!

Today i laid 3/4" ply over the concrete/2x4" i used to rough the pad for the fishtank. Now it is perfectly level, and water proofed!

 

[prsnlty]

Looks good So what's next?

 

[MarsRover]

haha! getting antsy prsnlty?

next is the tank comes on the 25th! then i start filling the stand and everything. As much as i trust my work, i still like to build with the unit in front of me.

that said, I also have 2 SCWDs on order for the return pipes. Pretty excited about them. They really stoke the mechanical nerd in me. I got the 1" versions. Hoping they are a little more robust than the 3/4" that everyone has had failures with. If it fails, i'm stoked about the opportunity to hack it. Have plenty of 3D printers at my disposal....might try and make my own too.

The location of the SCWDs would be where it's indicated in the CAD below in orange at each end of the returns.




Also, i have a 8" to 4" reducing coupler on order. should show up in a couple days. then i can break apart the concrete i made around the standpipes and try again with the 4to8" reducer. This too will be easier to feel out when the tank arrives.

 

[KJAG]

We've got RHF over here from RC in the chemistry forum, which is huge. But Man, I'd give anything to see Jim and Bean join this forum. They'd have a field day in some of these threads. Especially the last couple pages of this one.

 

[prsnlty]

haha! getting antsy prsnlty?

next is the tank comes on the 25th! then i start filling the stand and everything. As much as i trust my work, i still like to build with the unit in front of me.

that said, I also have 2 SCWDs on order for the return pipes. Pretty excited about them. They really stoke the mechanical nerd in me. I got the 1" versions. Hoping they are a little more robust than the 3/4" that everyone has had failures with. If it fails, i'm stoked about the opportunity to hack it. Have plenty of 3D printers at my disposal....might try and make my own too.

The location of the SCWDs would be where it's indicated in the CAD below in orange at each end of the returns.




Also, i have a 8" to 4" reducing coupler on order. should show up in a couple days. then i can break apart the concrete i made around the standpipes and try again with the 4to8" reducer. This too will be easier to feel out when the tank arrives.

Sounds like a good plan. Love the SCWD'S !

 

[Zachhll]

I don't really think I was giving incorrect information. Yes I got confused and thought you were running a durso as I had read This thread a couple of days before I said anything about the type of overflow. As for the Bean I said MOST. I know their is nothing that tracks this but since both the ghost overflow from reef savvy and the shadow box from synergy reef both use the open channel at seperate levels. I'm willing to bet between the two of them they count for most of the bean animal setups. Raising the open channel does not effect the silent and safe overflow design. maybe it is not in bean animals original design but it has become the Normal way of running this method. As most people do not want to have to redo their plumbing to get it to work. Do a quick search on YouTube of the bean animal. Almost every video they are at different heights. As @Shores805 has said himself that he recommends having them at different heights let's move on I'd like to watch this tank become awesome. On to something new @MarsRover in your most recent cad you have ball valves is this just for the cad drawing. I know you said you were having gate galves.

 

[MarsRover]

We've got RHF over here from RC in the chemistry forum, which is huge. But Man, I'd give anything to see Jim and Bean join this forum. They'd have a field day in some of these threads. Especially the last couple pages of this one.

Yeah, I'm on RC too and there just really isn't the presence over there anymore it seems. For better or for worse :/

I don't really think I was giving incorrect information. Yes I got confused and thought you were running a durso as I had read This thread a couple of days before I said anything about the type of overflow. As for the Bean I said MOST. I know their is nothing that tracks this but since both the ghost overflow from reef savvy and the shadow box from synergy reef both use the open channel at seperate levels. I'm willing to bet between the two of them they count for most of the bean animal setups. Raising the open channel does not effect the silent and safe overflow design. maybe it is not in bean animals original design but it has become the Normal way of running this method. As most people do not want to have to redo their plumbing to get it to work. Do a quick search on YouTube of the bean animal. Almost every video they are at different heights. As @Shores805 has said himself that he recommends having them at different heights let's move on I'd like to watch this tank become awesome. On to something new @MarsRover in your most recent cad you have ball valves is this just for the cad drawing. I know you said you were having gate galves.

That's fair. And I'm glad you're sticking around too. I am a firm believer that heated debate is what drives development of innovations to what already is.

Yes, I am using ball valves in the CAD because I was lazy and didn't feel like cadding up gate valves or digging through the Internet for a cad model of it, when McMaster has cad for a ball valve

 

[trioledeployment]

Double sided is the way to go

 

[Zachhll]

Yeah, I'm on RC too and there just really isn't the presence over there anymore it seems. For better or for worse :/



That's fair. And I'm glad you're sticking around too. I am a firm believer that heated debate is what drives development of innovations to what already is.

Yes, I am using ball valves in the CAD because I was lazy and didn't feel like cadding up gate valves or digging through the Internet for a cad model of it, when McMaster has cad for a ball valve

That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure you were still using gate valves on the actual tank. @trioledeployment Great looking tank. love how much coralline is on your rock. How long have you had that tank running.

 

[trioledeployment]

That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure you were still using gate valves on the actual tank. @trioledeployment Great looking tank. love how much coralline is on your rock. How long have you had that tank running.

Believe it or not... 1 year. And always used tap water, with stress coat to dechlorinate... Just recently bought an RO system.