3D printed Reef-Pi build

[MaccaPopEye]

Do you have the logo you're using in a JPEG format? If you do I would really like to use it in my build. I have some water slide decal stock and was thinking of adding a reef pi logo to the front of my head unit.

I actually made that logo in MS paint out of a mix of 2 very low quality images haha I then imported it into F360 and freehand traced it to make a DXF file (which is why there is some rather wonky lines still).

Because the original was such low quality I am pretty sure only saved the DXF file but I am sure I can convert it into a JPEG easily enough for you. I'll have a go when I get home form work and let you know

 

[crusso1993]

Do you have the logo you're using in a JPEG format? If you do I would really like to use it in my build. I have some water slide decal stock and was thinking of adding a reef pi logo to the front of my head unit.

Is there actually a true logo for reef pi? If so, perhaps @Ranjib has it available for use.

 

[Diamond1]

I don't think there's anything official but I kinda like Macca's design.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Is there actually a true logo for reef pi? If so, perhaps @Ranjib has it available for use.

There is no official logo, I just got bored at work one day and came up with this and I'm more than happy for anyone to use it if they want to

 

[Ranjib]

There’s none , other than the reef-pi word (all in small case) . The one macca is using is very similar to another project named reefpi ( likely defunct now) ,

 

[MaccaPopEye]

There’s none , other than the reef-pi word (all in small case) . The one macca is using is very similar to another project named reefpi ( likely defunct now) ,

Oh wow I didn't even know that one existed (edit - I knew there was an old reefpi project, just didnt know about their logo), the logo is almost identical

That's weird I did do a google image search first to see if there was anything so I didnt need to reinvent the wheel haha just have missed it

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Do you have the logo you're using in a JPEG format? If you do I would really like to use it in my build. I have some water slide decal stock and was thinking of adding a reef pi logo to the front of my head unit.

Here is a jpeg version @Diamond1 if you want to use it. It's a shame it's pretty much identical to the logo of the old project but as Ranjib said, it appears to have stopped a few years ago.

 

[Diamond1]

Thanks very much.
Yeah I went to their site and it looks like no one has done anything with it for quite a while

 

[Erica-Renee]

Here is a jpeg version @Diamond1 if you want to use it. It's a shame it's pretty much identical to the logo of the old project but as Ranjib said, it appears to have stopped a few years ago.

I have a Vinyl Cutting machine.. I may be able to reproduce these into a flat sticker.Would have to get some yellow and white vinyl.. I only bought blue Bright Green and Black as its the colors I used for My Van graphics ...

 

[Erica-Renee]

Here is a jpeg version @Diamond1 if you want to use it. It's a shame it's pretty much identical to the logo of the old project but as Ranjib said, it appears to have stopped a few years ago.

Do you have the original of this with layers non merged ... To print it I have to have each color as a separate file.if not i can reproduce it...

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Do you have the original of this with layers non merged ... To print it I have to have each color as a separate file.if not i can reproduce it...

So you want 3 separate pictures, one for each colour? I can do that if you like. With or without the thin black outline?

 

[Erica-Renee]

So you want 3 separate pictures, one for each colour? I can do that if you like. With or without the thin black outline?

If its not to much trouble. Please do not rush as i am Busy and will wait to cut them until i have other things to cut. I need to do some decals for a friend soon any way..
The Cutter uses Vector graphics . But its software can convert almost any image. To Cut that logo i have to do it in 3 different batches . one for each color then layer them with Application tape ( its easier then it sounds actually) So yes each file separately or a editable file ..

I am Printing a Cube on the 3d printer.Had a few issues with bed adhesion but then i installed the Glass plate. Printing a Dice as my first print

 

[MaccaPopEye]

In the main reef-pi thread the concern of DIY enclosures and their potential lack of fire safety was raised (particularly in relation to mains electricity which for me is 240V ). It was pointed out that in the US any plastic pats should be UL-94v rated which ensures that they wont catch fire easily and if they do the flame won't burn for long. I wasn't able to find any specific Australian standard (I'm sure there is one somewhere) but it appears a certifier individually tests each electrical appliance for their fire resistance before it is cleared to be sold in Aus.

I did some research and found this very useful video about the fire resistance of PLA and other 3D printing filaments.

For those who don't have the time or don't want to watch the video it shows:

- ABS. Ignites easily and burns very well (so there go my plans of a vapour smoothed enclosure in the future ). You can buy fire retardant ABS, even stuff that is UL-94V rated. but it is very expensive and it wasn't tested in this video as he didn't have any.

- PLA. Plain PLA with no additives did not ignite easily and when it did, it could not maintain a flame.

- PLA+. The PLA filament with additives to improve it's properties did appear to keep burning easily once ignited. This is important to note as PLAs with additives are becoming more and more common. Obviously once the wood infused PLA ignited it also burnt very well.

- PETG. Surprisingly PETG did not ignite at all and performed very well as far as flame resistant properties go.



I do have some scraps of the PLA I used for the enclosure as well as some other failed prints in other brands and I plan to test them in a similar manner to see if I can get any of them to ignite and hold a flame. I may also have some PETG scraps / old prints laying around that I can test to see if I get similar results.

However, based of the results in the video it appears that while plain PLA would likely be ok for our purpose (which is what I used), PETG would possibly be the best and safest material to use when 3D printing electronics enclosures

 

[Diamond1]

Very interesting thanks for posting this.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Ok so my head is a little dizzy but the results of my completely un-scientific testing are back and hopefully my wife doesn't find out that I used one of her baking trays to melt plastic on

I tested a mix of support scraps / test prints / failed prints in 3 different brands of plain PLA and 1 brand of PETG and used a long necked BBQ lighter to apply heat.

The most interesting thing I found was the main factor that determined if a flame will continue to sustain itself or not is the orientation of the part vs the flame, not the actual material!

All 3 brands of PLA (1 cheap red, 1 cheap white and 1 high-end white) were very difficult to ignite from the top (flame facing down onto the part or from the side). It consistently took around 10 seconds of direct blue flame being applied before the PLA was able to sustain its own flame which then always burnt itself out in a second or two. For the flame to sustain itself it needs to use the melting plastic as fuel, with the flame on top of the part gravity pulls the melting plastic down and away from the flame, and the flame is not able to melt the next layer of plastic fast enough to sustain itself.

The same occurred with PETG except the PETG needed 15+ seconds to ignite and them almost always extinguished itself in less than 1 second.

This is not surprising as in the video above Angus was pointing the flame at the top of the printed part. I suspect the ABS part and PLA+ parts acted differently as the material was able to act as fuel for the flame before it was fully melted (unlike with PLA or PETG).

However I wanted to try and simulate an electrical fire inside a power board so I took the top of V1 of the power board (high-end plain white PLA) that I had printed a while ago and put the long neck of the lighter inside the print to light the flame from underneath.

What I found was that a flame was able to sustain itself after only 6-7 seconds of direct blue flame being applied and it would not extinguish itself. With the melting plastic dripping down through the flame it was able to fuel the flame on enough to melt the next layer up and out to the side, continuing the cycle and spreading the fire (and likely would have kept going until there was almost nothing left).

Curious what the PETG would do I propped the failed PETG print up and applied the blue flame from underneath. It also ignited a little faster (about 10 seconds each time i tried) and it also kept on burning with no signs of slowing down.

So my conclusion is - as long as the flame is coming in from underneath a part so the melting plastic can drip into the flame and add fuel to the fire, both PLA and PETG with in fact sustain a flame after being ignited.

My other observations are:
- PLA was quite slow burning, the fire did not spread quickly (in my opinion at least ) but once the PETG got going the fire definitely sped up a little.
- Both PLA and PETG fueled fires could be extinguished with a very light breeze (much easier to blow out than birthday candles ). To try and get a repeatable test I set up a very weak 12V DC computer fan 50cm away from the fire. Each time I was able to get a good fire going, plugging in the weak fan was all that was needed to extinguish the fire within a couple of seconds. I would say putting an intake and an exhaust fan on the side of my electrical cabinet (on my to do list anyway ) would create a stronger draft going past all parts.
- Neither PLA or PETG really had any after-glow or were able to be easily re-ignited. Once the flame was extinguished it took almost as long as before to start another fire. If the part was left to cool for 10-15 seconds, it took approx 5 seconds of a constant flame for PLA to reignite and approx 8 seconds for PETG to reignite.

And probably the most important observation IMO (already stated above) - Both PLA and PETG took quite a long time to ignite. 6-7 seconds (PLA) and 10 seconds (PETG) of a constant blue flame is already a pretty decent fire so they would actually need a fire to have already well and truly started before they could add fuel to it.

It is because of that last observation that I am still fairly comfortable using PLA or PETG (the latter is probably the preferred as it takes almost twice as long to ignite) for 3D printed electrical housings. I do not think they are as safe as UL-94V rated enclosures, but I am fairly confident they are no more dangerous than normal power bars or ABS project boxes. All of my power boards will also be run through a fused switch and then all the circuits in the house have an RCD. I believe that both of those safety measures would need to fail before an electrical fire is a possibility.

I do plan to place a smoke detector inside my electrical cabinet above my tank's electrical components and also add some intake and exhaust fans to create some airflow past all the components, but those are both things I already have been meaning to do for a while as they are just good things to have in a wooden cabinet that is packed with electrical equipment

 

[Erica-Renee]

Ok so my head is a little dizzy but the results of my completely un-scientific testing are back and hopefully my wife doesn't find out that I used one of her baking trays to melt plastic on

I tested a mix of support scraps / test prints / failed prints in 3 different brands of plain PLA and 1 brand of PETG and used a long necked BBQ lighter to apply heat.

The most interesting thing I found was the main factor that determined if a flame will continue to sustain itself or not is the orientation of the part vs the flame, not the actual material!

All 3 brands of PLA (1 cheap red, 1 cheap white and 1 high-end white) were very difficult to ignite from the top (flame facing down onto the part or from the side). It consistently took around 10 seconds of direct blue flame being applied before the PLA was able to sustain its own flame which then always burnt itself out in a second or two. For the flame to sustain itself it needs to use the melting plastic as fuel, with the flame on top of the part gravity pulls the melting plastic down and away from the flame, and the flame is not able to melt the next layer of plastic fast enough to sustain itself.

The same occurred with PETG except the PETG needed 15+ seconds to ignite and them almost always extinguished itself in less than 1 second.

This is not surprising as in the video above Angus was pointing the flame at the top of the printed part. I suspect the ABS part and PLA+ parts acted differently as the material was able to act as fuel for the flame before it was fully melted (unlike with PLA or PETG).

However I wanted to try and simulate an electrical fire inside a power board so I took the top of V1 of the power board (high-end plain white PLA) that I had printed a while ago and put the long neck of the lighter inside the print to light the flame from underneath.

What I found was that a flame was able to sustain itself after only 6-7 seconds of direct blue flame being applied and it would not extinguish itself. With the melting plastic dripping down through the flame it was able to fuel the flame on enough to melt the next layer up and out to the side, continuing the cycle and spreading the fire (and likely would have kept going until there was almost nothing left).

Curious what the PETG would do I propped the failed PETG print up and applied the blue flame from underneath. It also ignited a little faster (about 10 seconds each time i tried) and it also kept on burning with no signs of slowing down.

So my conclusion is - as long as the flame is coming in from underneath a part so the melting plastic can drip into the flame and add fuel to the fire, both PLA and PETG with in fact sustain a flame after being ignited.

My other observations are:
- PLA was quite slow burning, the fire did not spread quickly (in my opinion at least ) but once the PETG got going the fire definitely sped up a little.
- Both PLA and PETG fueled fires could be extinguished with a very light breeze (much easier to blow out than birthday candles ). To try and get a repeatable test I set up a very weak 12V DC computer fan 50cm away from the fire. Each time I was able to get a good fire going, plugging in the weak fan was all that was needed to extinguish the fire within a couple of seconds. I would say putting an intake and an exhaust fan on the side of my electrical cabinet (on my to do list anyway ) would create a stronger draft going past all parts.
- Neither PLA or PETG really had any after-glow or were able to be easily re-ignited. Once the flame was extinguished it took almost as long as before to start another fire. If the part was left to cool for 10-15 seconds, it took approx 5 seconds of a constant flame for PLA to reignite and approx 8 seconds for PETG to reignite.

And probably the most important observation IMO (already stated above) - Both PLA and PETG took quite a long time to ignite. 6-7 seconds (PLA) and 10 seconds (PETG) of a constant blue flame is already a pretty decent fire so they would actually need a fire to have already well and truly started before they could add fuel to it.

It is because of that last observation that I am still fairly comfortable using PLA or PETG (the latter is probably the preferred as it takes almost twice as long to ignite) for 3D printed electrical housings. I do not think they are as safe as UL-94V rated enclosures, but I am fairly confident they are no more dangerous than normal power bars or ABS project boxes. All of my power boards will also be run through a fused switch and then all the circuits in the house have an RCD. I believe that both of those safety measures would need to fail before an electrical fire is a possibility.

I do plan to place a smoke detector inside my electrical cabinet above my tank's electrical components and also add some intake and exhaust fans to create some airflow past all the components, but those are both things I already have been meaning to do for a while as they are just good things to have in a wooden cabinet that is packed with electrical equipment

This does seem to me like good news . Did you try just applying heat to see if that would catch a flame. I would ask about a spark but im not going to. They do seem as safe as the blue abs (i think is what they are) cheap boxes you can buy... I try to use the thicker fiberglass ones in my remodel work. but not always able due to there size.. Curious if heat will catch the plastics on fire or if it actually takes a flame.
My opinion is you still mount your electronics onto a metal plate in the bottom of the box. This is what i think i will be doing..

Thank you for all this Effort ...

 

[MaccaPopEye]

This does seem to me like good news . Did you try just applying heat to see if that would catch a flame. I would ask about a spark but im not going to. They do seem as safe as the blue abs (i think is what they are) cheap boxes you can buy... I try to use the thicker fiberglass ones in my remodel work. but not always able due to there size.. Curious if heat will catch the plastics on fire or if it actually takes a flame.
My opinion is you still mount your electronics onto a metal plate in the bottom of the box. This is what i think i will be doing..

Thank you for all this Effort ...

As for sustained heat, PLA is extruded from the printer at temperatures up to 220C so that still wouldn't cause it to combust, only to melt. And PETG is extruded at temps up to 250C so it would probably also just melt at those temps.

I'd say if you are experiencing those temps for even short periods inside an electronics enclosure there are much bigger things to worry about but holding the flame close to the parts also only caused them to melt, they needed a direct application of the flame to catch fire.

However actually touching the flame to any parts that had already melted into a liquid state did cause them to ignite.

As for sparks, I did try and they did nothing (but it was a very weak spark). I held the lighters starter to the plastic and clicked it over and over to no avail. I would say a burst of sparks from a 240V short would melt a bit of plastic on contact, but as it needed direct flame non stop for 6+ seconds I dont think 1 or even 2 bursts of sparks would do anything (before an RCD or GFCI kicks in).

I'm not really sure a metal plate would help unless you enclose all 4 sides in a metal plate, as while the plate might protect from sparks coming into contact with one side of the enclosure, the other 4 sides are still vulnerable. But it certainly cant hurt that's for sure!

 

[Erica-Renee]

As for sustained heat, PLA is extruded from the printer at temperatures up to 220C so that still wouldn't cause it to combust, only to melt. And PETG is extruded at temps up to 250C so it would probably also just melt at those temps.

I'd say if you are experiencing those temps for even short periods inside an electronics enclosure there are much bigger things to worry about but holding the flame close to the parts also only caused them to melt, they needed a direct application of the flame to catch fire.

However actually touching the flame to any parts that had already melted into a liquid state did cause them to ignite.

As for sparks, I did try and they did nothing (but it was a very weak spark). I held the lighters starter to the plastic and clicked it over and over to no avail. I would say a burst of sparks from a 240V short would melt a bit of plastic on contact, but as it needed direct flame non stop for 6+ seconds I dont think 1 or even 2 bursts of sparks would do anything (before an RCD or GFCI kicks in).

I'm not really sure a metal plate would help unless you enclose all 4 sides in a metal plate, as while the plate might protect from sparks coming into contact with one side of the enclosure, the other 4 sides are still vulnerable. But it certainly cant hurt that's for sure!

True all things above.. Also most of our electronics are Super low Voltage, So going with my Initial plans to put Relays and Anything with mains (120v ac) In ul approved outlet boxes ,(I have some metal ones around here someplace from a Commercial job) and the Low Voltage components built into a Printed box to fit the boards designs Seem to be a VERY Safe plan ..

Thank you so very much

 

[Ranjib]

This is amazing. Thanks for doing such intensive tests and posting back . The results are truly fascinating. I think it will be helpful to larger 3d printed community beyond reef keepers. @MaccaPopEye did you find any comprehensive blog post in the interweb on this? Other than the youtube videos?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

This is amazing. Thanks for doing such intensive tests and posting back . The results are truly fascinating. I think it will be helpful to larger 3d printed community beyond reef keepers. @MaccaPopEye did you find any comprehensive blog post in the interweb on this? Other than the youtube videos?

No worries, it was interesting to see that my results differed from those in the video and it helped to give me a little piece of mind while still being aware of the potential risks. It's not a particularly scientific test but hopefully it will help someone

Maybe one day after I actually have my reef-pi build all up and running I will do a better test on a wider range of materials and brands where I can try to control a number of the variables. I am also keen to try some flame retardant materials to see how long they take to ignite. The fire safety interests me as I plan to print a few more electronics enclosures for a couple of future projects.

As for other sources, I found a few videos and forum posts about ABS and PLA with the general consensus that they do burn. But nothing much about other materials (like PETG) and no real description of the conditions they used to make them burn (i.e. flame from above or underneath, how long was it in contact for etc.).

The only filaments I was able to find that contain flame retardant fillers were some versions of ABS and Polycarbonate (PC). ABS usually needs an enclosure to print well (can be cheaply made) but PC is hard to print on hobby grade printers (that cost less than $1K) but can be done with some expensive upgrades.

The flame retardant materials are also more expensive at $70+/kg AUD compared to <$30/kg for PLA and <$40/kg for PETG. But if you can perfect and prototype the parts in cheap PLA and manage to not have any failed prints it's still not an extreme additional cost (I can print 2x 8 outlet power boards and 1 main HUB enclosure with a single 1kg roll).

I also found out that the flame retardant materials still catch fire (but I don't know how long this takes). The UL rating is granted if they can stop burning within 10-60 seconds of igniting (depending on which UL-94V rating level they have). While this is a good feature it is still quite a long time for other things nearby to catch fire and the most important thing is that that the timer for the flame to go out only starts once the initial flame source is removed. So IMO how much safer they are comes down to how long they take to ignite (which I can't find).

So while the flame retardant filaments would be ideal, for now I would definitely say PLA and PETG still aren't the worst options as long as you are aware there are *some* potential risks (as there is with any DIY electronics). Just don't use plain ABS