40 breeder build

[BlueDevil]

Looking good! Now you're ahead of me!

Thank you! Well I got most of the structural stuff pretty much ready now. Just waiting on the rocks now. Who knows how long those will take so you might skip ahead of me again [emoji4]

 

[BlueDevil]

I have another frustrated update. I restarted the cycling process yesterday. Replaced the old SW with fresh SW that I tested for 0 phosphates before adding. I did not add any fish food this time either (to eliminate the possibility of phosphates from the food). Instead I used 100% pure ammonia - enough to bump up ammonia to 3ppm. I just tested the water from the Brute and the phosphates tested at 0.05ppm!! So the rock seems to be the culprit in leeching the phosphates.

Thinking back now, the only possible cause for this could be the water I used during the LC bath process. For both the muriatic acid bath as well as LC bath, I used regular city tap water. I just tested the tap water in my house, and the phosphates tested at 0.19ppm!! My only theory is that the phosphates in the city water negated the LC bath process.

I am new to curing rock in this manner so if anyone has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated. Needless to say this is very frustrating as I can assume my only option at this time would be to redo the LC bath, this time using RO fresh water?

 

[glb]

I have another frustrated update. I restarted the cycling process yesterday. Replaced the old SW with fresh SW that I tested for 0 phosphates before adding. I did not add any fish food this time either (to eliminate the possibility of phosphates from the food). Instead I used 100% pure ammonia - enough to bump up ammonia to 3ppm. I just tested the water from the Brute and the phosphates tested at 0.05ppm!! So the rock seems to be the culprit in leeching the phosphates.

Thinking back now, the only possible cause for this could be the water I used during the LC bath process. For both the muriatic acid bath as well as LC bath, I used regular city tap water. I just tested the tap water in my house, and the phosphates tested at 0.19ppm!! My only theory is that the phosphates in the city water negated the LC bath process.

I am new to curing rock in this manner so if anyone has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated. Needless to say this is very frustrating as I can assume my only option at this time would be to redo the LC bath, this time using RO fresh water?

I'm wondering if a gfo reactor would keep the phosphates under control until the rocks stop leaching. 0.05. isn't terrible awful. You probably won't be adding sensitive coral at first anyway.

 

[BlueDevil]

I'm wondering if a gfo reactor would keep the phosphates under control until the rocks stop leaching. 0.05. isn't terrible awful. You probably won't be adding sensitive coral at first anyway.

I do have a GFO reactor that I plan on installing in this setup. I agree that 0.05 is not critically bad I don't think. Though this is after only one day. On the last go around it read 0.09 after one week. So I'm anxious to see what it does over the next week. If it keeps climbing I might not have an option but to reboot the LC process.

 

[Reeflogic]

Couple of things, Yash. I've also read that Brute cans WILL leach PO4. Also, did you read or check on the ammonia you are adding? Did you check to see if adding pure ammonia if it might give false readings? Maybe grab a 5g bucket and toss one of the rocks in a few gallons of water and test before you add the rock and after the rock is in it for 24 hours, without adding any ammonia and of course without being in the Brute, take all the rocks out of the brute and test the water in the brute after 24 hours. It's very likely that it is the rocks leaching, but what if it's not?? Bummed that you had to start over...you were so close....

 

[BlueDevil]

Thanks for the tip, Doug! I will test a piece of rock the way you described. Just one thing though - I read that once you give the Brute a good wash, it should not leach many (if any) phosphates. Wouldn't doing the LC bath get rid of that phosphate from the Brute?

I also did some additional reading on the LC bath process, and from users' experiences I guess I can do the bath and cycling processes simultaneously. I restart the LC bath using the salt water I currently have in the tank, and keep adding LC daily until my phosphate levels are as close to 0 as possible. Once that is accomplished, replace the rock with fresh SW, rinse the rocks out to rid them of any precipitate from the LC bath and I can continue on with my cycling process. I think I might just start that tonight as well. I'm only a week into the cycling so I don't think this will set me back terribly. I too have a sneaking suspicion that either the first bath did not get rid of all the phosphates, or the tap water negated the bath process. I will use strictly SW this time around.

You live, you learn

 

[Reeflogic]

Ahhhh, wasn't aware you could do them simultaneously! But, as you know, my first experience with dry rock was about 3 years ago, so your research is much better than anything I can advise! The Brute leaching subject was something I researched several years ago and it was from folks who were using them to store RODI water, which was something I used to do, so I'm not sure if cleaning them will prevent it or not. I stopped storing my water in them and used the food grade plastic drums. I only use the Brutes for salt water mixing and transferring stuff around. My 40g brute has been cleaned about 1,000 times since 2005 or so, so it better be phosphate free lol.

I think you are on the right track if you can cycle and dose the LC, seems to be the best option!!

C'est la vie!!!

 

[BlueDevil]

Yeah, the more I think about the more I feel it is the rock that is the issue after all. I can't imagine a Brute would leach 0.05 worth of phosphates in a 24 hour period.

 

[CastAway]

I have another frustrated update. I restarted the cycling process yesterday.....

Just a sanity check here Yash, as I'm following along, but you're curing and or cooking your rock right, not "cycling"?

Maybe I've missed some posts.

An acid bath to remove organics; a LC bath to try and deal with any excess/surface bound PO4, then into your system to actually cycle, right?

Personally, I don't know if one should expect 0ppm PO4 at any time until after the initial cycle, and the initial micro algae that are hopefully present were consuming PO4, and had found the equilibrium (sync).

Prolly confusing myself.

 

[CastAway]

I myself did it old school btw. I read and researched on "cooking" and LC, and in the end threw my dry BRS rock right into the empty tank, out of the box, and filled with RODI, then salt. Thirty days later, ugly as could be with 0 nitrite, started my CUC. In my logic, any organics and PO4 just got me to the end I wanted.

 

[BlueDevil]

Just a sanity check here Yash, as I'm following along, but you're curing and or cooking your rock right, not "cycling"?

Maybe I've missed some posts.

An acid bath to remove organics; a LC bath to try and deal with any excess/surface bound PO4, then into your system to actually cycle, right?

Personally, I don't know if one should expect 0ppm PO4 at any time until after the initial cycle, and the initial micro algae that are hopefully present were consuming PO4, and had found the equilibrium (sync).

Prolly confusing myself.

I did the acid bath to peel off the top layer, then did a 5-day LC bath (curing part). All this was done using regular tap water. About 8 days back I started the cycling process (still in a Brute) using ammonia and Microbacter7. Tested PO4 a week later and it was 0.09. Emptied out the Brute and restarted with (confirmed) 0ppm SW and in 24 hours, the PO4 was already at 0.05. So there certainly seems some residual PO4 I would imagine.I don't expect to get it down all the way to 0, but I'm shooting for at least 0.03 before adding to the tank.

The reason I am cycling in the Brute as opposed to the tank is that it is going to be tricky to get both tanks going upstairs at the same time. You've seen where my current tank is (with the Apex cabinet next to it). The new tank is going to go in the same place so I don't have to move the Apex box out of the wall. What I am trying to do is also cycle the rocks at the same time to develop a bacteria load that will handle ammonia and resulting nitrite.

I'm still unsure of how the whole tank move will take place. I would imagine if I have the rocks cured as well cycled, that I can take a big rubbermaid tub upstairs, drain my current tank, move the rock and fish into the rubbermaid and run a heater and PH in there. I should be able to balance my T5 fixture on top of the tub for light. Then move my old tank out, slide in my new tank, put the rock and sand in and transfer the fish/corals over.

Am I asking for trouble with this plan? If so, I might have to rethink the strategy. The only other option is to drain the current tank to almost - just leaving enough for the fish. Slide the tank over a few feet which should open up the space for the new tank. Fill the tank back up and get it running. Then run both tanks side by side and cycle the rocks in the tank itself.

Personally, I would prefer to cycle the rocks in the Brute as long as I don't end up with another cycle when I move them up to the DT.

 

[Mark75]

Yash,...I believe the LC should precipitate all the phosphate out, no matter what the water/rock contains. It is not like a filter that has absorption limits.

 

[Reeflogic]

The biggest thing to gain from cycling dry rock in a dark place or rather "without lights" is to allow the bacteria to cover the rock (that slimy feel), which helps to prevent nuisance algae from taking hold on the rock once it's blasted with bright lights and the fact it's bright white rock, which attracts nuisance algae.

Going back a week or so ago, did you say you were getting zero readings for phosphate after the LC baths? I can't remember why you felt it was ready to start cycling? I guess it really doesn't matter since you know now that you can cycle and LC dose at the same time. Was just curious if you tested it before adding ammonia / frozen food.

 

[Reeflogic]

Also, I did the same as Jeff for the 60 lbs or so Pukani I got from BRS back in 2013. Looking back over the last 3 years of having a majority of that rock still, I think doing what you did would have helped promote coralline growth much sooner, as it took a VERY long time for coralline to start growing on the pukani, whereas, anything else in my tank was covered in it, including some rock that wasn't originally dry skeleton rock. I believe this was due to po4 leaching from the pukani. The pukani has also been the only rock in my tank over the years to break out with bryopsis... maybe coincidence, though!

 

[BlueDevil]

I had not measured my phosphates after the LC bath, and before the cycling process largely due to the fact that I had used regular tap water (already containing some amount of phosphates). Thinking back in hindsight, I still should have measured it after the bath cos the LC should have removed the phosphates out of the tap water too! Brainfart moment there!

Regarding the cycling, I plan on cycling it in the Brute container with a lid on, and a heater. The only light it will get is when I open it for a few minutes to take the water sample to test and when I add more Microbacter or ammonia.

My concern with cycling it in the Brute and immediately starting the system is whether or not the new system will be good to go from day 1 (with rocks that have been cycled in the Brute). The sand will not have been cycled - it will be all new sand. i.e. will it be safe to add my fish and corals from day 1? I don't have a heavy livestock - only 3 small fish, a pistol shrimp, and CUC.

 

[cee]

I did LC three times with RO water on Pukani. The LC can only remove phosphate until the chemical binding is exhausted and then you need fresh LC. Brutes have been proposed to leach PO4 and someone did some tests awhile back to back up the statement. PO4 from the food is another possibility. If it were me I'd go back and do at least LC again 2-3 times over a couple of weeks. You'll have to start the bacteria cycle over again, though.

 

[BlueDevil]

Thank you for your responses, folks! Here's my plan of action:

1. I measured the PO4 in the Brute today. It checked out at 0.07. I added a cap full of LC and will monitor the PO4 daily over the next week. Once it stabilizes (and unless it down to undetectable levels) I will change out the SW and continue with the LC bath.

2. I filled some 0 PO4 SW in another Brute and just let it sit there. I will measure that PO4 as well to see if the Brute is leaching any into the water column. If it does not, once the LC bath is complete, I will cycle the rock in the Brute. If it does leach, I will just have to set up the new DT and cycle the rocks in that tank. It probably will involve having to drain the DT of water before I am able to move it in the location it will be set up in.

I think this should be a fairly robust plan unless I am missing something. If I am, comments/feedback is welcome!

 

[cee]

Good news is if the PO4 is in the water then it shouldn't absorb too heavily into the rock. If your initial treatment didn't get it out of the rock then you're back to where you began but if it did and the PO4 is water only then it should go pretty fast. Can you put a small piece of rock in a glass container as a "control", treating it like the others, to eliminate any other variables (other than the rock and/or salt (which you can measure upon mixing)) from the "equation"?

 

[BlueDevil]

Good news is if the PO4 is in the water then it shouldn't absorb too heavily into the rock. If your initial treatment didn't get it out of the rock then you're back to where you began but if it did and the PO4 is water only then it should go pretty fast. Can you put a small piece of rock in a glass container as a "control", treating it like the others, to eliminate any other variables (other than the rock and/or salt (which you can measure upon mixing)) from the "equation"?

I can do the small rock experiment. Couple of things though. I don't have a glass container that will be deep enough to submerge the rock. Would a stainless steel cooking pan work? Also, do I need to have a PH in there or can I do the test without one? The other option is to soak in my new sump. Though the silicone is still only a week old so I'm not sure if it's cured enough to not cause any conflicting issues. I had to put a fair bit on there to seal the gaps between the baffle and tank wall.

 

[cee]

Sump should be fine after a week. Circulation is better but not necessary.