668 DAYS - NO WATER CHANGES ..and going strong !

[Reef Puncher]

how do i delete a message i accidently double posted.

 

[Dave-T]

Good for you that your closed system is free of toxin buildup, pollutants and PFAS (forever chemicals).

This. People talk about water changes as if they're a way to replace trace elements. If your system is depleting trace elements, unless you do 100% water changes frequently (very frequently), it's impossible for water changes to replace what was depleted. Unless your salt mix has elevated trace elements, which I don't think any do.

So you do need to add trace elements, through moonshine or whatever other system you use. But water changes are still needed - to ~remove~, not ~add~, stuff. Without water changes, bad things can eventually build up to dangerous levels. Your system will be fine until you reach a tipping point. Everything will be absolutely wonderfully 100% fine. Until it's not.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know everything, but what I'm saying above is what makes sense to me!

 

[schooncw]

A very good point. I’ve been

Well that is a wonderful thing. Good for you that your closed system is free of toxin buildup, pollutants and PFAS (forever chemicals).
But sarcasm aside, your post is a double edge sword for reefers. On one hand, while not sustainable, a no water change tank is possible if you are adept at keeping a reef tank. You are exchanging the effort/cost of doing water changes with the effort/cost of closely monitoring the water chemistry of your tank and making the necessary adjustments.
But in honesty, corals are going to die because a new reefer only read " two years and no water changes"
and that's what they will do... Then I will have to read and maybe respond to a post of " All my corals die.. why?"
A better title might have been, "Almost two years without a water change and this is how I did it".
Just Sayin...

I have been in the hobby all my life and in the aquatic industry for many years. I regard regular water changes kind of like an oil change in a car, the least expensive and best proactive maintenance. Never got the hate for a regular wc.

 

[Reef Puncher]

This. People talk about water changes as if they're a way to replace trace elements. If your system is depleting trace elements, unless you do 100% water changes frequently (very frequently), it's impossible for water changes to replace what was depleted. Unless your salt mix has elevated trace elements, which I don't think any do.

So you do need to add trace elements, through moonshine or whatever other system you use. But water changes are still needed - to ~remove~, not ~add~, stuff. Without water changes, bad things can eventually build up to dangerous levels. Your system will be fine until you reach a tipping point. Everything will be absolutely wonderfully 100% fine. Until it's not.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know everything, but what I'm saying above is what makes sense to me!

i may be tripping, but water changes do add trace. if minerals are being stripped from the available water, then you remove 25% of the water, and replace it with new water with trace, your adding some trace back in. now the question is how much trace is being consumed. because if your consuming more trace than your replacing, then yes, you need to do very frequent water changes, usually best on nano tanks.

but i believe EVERYONE with corals should do ICP testing semi regularly until you understand what trace your system needs and how much is being pulled. for instance, water changes alone arent enough for me, as i use GFO and it strips heavy minerals out of my tank SUPER fast. so i have to dose heavy minerals like zinc, nickel, etc.

 

[Dave-T]

i may be tripping, but water changes do add trace. if minerals are being stripped from the available water, then you remove 25% of the water, and replace it with new water with trace, your adding some trace back in. now the question is how much trace is being consumed. because if your consuming more trace than your replacing, then yes, you need to do very frequent water changes, usually best on nano tanks.

but i believe EVERYONE with corals should do ICP testing semi regularly until you understand what trace your system needs and how much is being pulled. for instance, water changes alone arent enough for me, as i use GFO and it strips heavy minerals out of my tank SUPER fast. so i have to dose heavy minerals like zinc, nickel, etc.

Yes, sure, some traces get replaced when you do a water change. Some will get removed (consumed) at a regular rate in your system. Then if you do an X% water change every Y days, you will be replacing some (not all) of that. Eventually it will reach an equilibrium where the levels of your traces stay constant. The math is a little complicated, but if you plug in your consumption rate, and X and Y, then you can actually calculate exactly what you'll end up at.

The point is, if you want to maintain natural seawater levels of your traces, and you start at NSW, and your salt mix contains NSW levels, the equilibrium you reach will be a fair bit below NSW. How far below depends on what your consumption is, and how frequently and how much you do water changes.
As an example, I just plugged this question into ChatGPT:

If I start at natural seawater levels of my trace elements in my reef tank, and my system consumes 10% of the traces each month, and I do a 10% water change every week, at what level (what percent of NSW), will my system reach equilibrium.

This was the response:

Short answer: you’ll settle around ~81–82% of NSW.

This is probably pretty optimistic - 10% water changes a week is pretty common, but I think most systems consume more than 10% a month of many of their traces.

 

[BeanAnimal]

As long as you ICP (as you do) and dose trace then you shouldnt theoretically have to do a water change.

I am over 20 years into this tank. For the last 10 or so, I haven’t done any water changes. I have never run an ICP test. I rarely test anything but daily alkalinity. Calcium and magnesium maybe every few months. I used to test nitrate and phosphate with a ReefBot but gave that up because it was too much of a hassle too.

 

[Dave-T]

I am over 20 years into this tank. For the last 10 or so, I haven’t done any water changes. I have never run an ICP test. I rarely test anything but daily alkalinity. Calcium and magnesium maybe every few months. I used to test nitrate and phosphate with a ReefBot but gave that up because it was too much of a hassle too.

Haha. Well Bean, that does refute my argument somewhat! Although what I said is still true, your system seems to manage fine with depleted traces and raised whatever-accumulated-without-water-changes. So you dose no traces at all? Nothing but alk, calc, and mag? What kind of corals do you have?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As long as you ICP (as you do) and dose trace then you shouldnt theoretically have to do a water change. Unless something is contaminating your tank as sometimes things like aerosols sprays and other things can contaminate a tank. Or perhaps some issue pops up, then theoretically one isnt needed

I change water to deal with issues that have no other easy solution, which does not include adding trace Elements. It does include removing accumulating toxins (such as from organisms).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Haha. Well Bean, that does refute my argument somewhat! Although what I said is still true, your system seems to manage fine with depleted traces and raised whatever-accumulated-without-water-changes. So you dose no traces at all? Nothing but alk, calc, and mag? What kind of corals do you have?

Sorry - What makes you think I have depleted traces?

There was a time (4-5 years) that I dosed NOTHING. Some LPS survived, and the mushroom. leather and blue ridge (LPS that acts like SPS) survived.


I now dose Triton Core 7 "other methods". I don't test for trace. I top off with RO/DI and 50-100 ml of SW every day (to account for KH Director testing).

 

[SeaDweller]

A very good point. I’ve been

I have been in the hobby all my life and in the aquatic industry for many years. I regard regular water changes kind of like an oil change in a car, the least expensive and best proactive maintenance. Never got the hate for a regular wc.

WC is cheap and easy insurance, and your analogy is the best way to put it. You can top off with new oil, but the car will need to get that old sludgy oil out.

 

[Dave-T]

Sorry - What makes you think I have depleted traces?

There was a time (4-5 years) that I dosed NOTHING. Some LPS survived, and the mushroom. leather and blue ridge (LPS that acts like SPS) survived.


I now dose Triton Core 7 "other methods". I don't test for trace. I top off with RO/DI and 50-100 ml of SW every day (to account for KH Director testing).

I thought that was what you're saying. So I guess you get traces from Triton Core 7. I guess that guesstimates your trace consumption based on your alk or mag consumption? Since every tank is different, I'd think you could diverge quite a bit from NSW over time. But clearly your corals can handle it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, I think folks greatly underestimate the trace elements that come from foods. For many I think they are a bigger source than water changes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I thought that was what you're saying. So I guess you get traces from Triton Core 7. I guess that guesstimates your trace consumption based on your alk or mag consumption? Since every tank is different, I'd think you could diverge quite a bit from NSW over time. But clearly your corals can handle it.

If you do water changes, you’re getting trace replenishment.
The same is true if you do not do water changes but use Triton, Tropic Marin trace A/K, or similar products.

As Randy has pointed out, trace elements also come from food.

I don’t put much weight on “trace” quantification outside of a few major elements. I don’t see much value in ICP testing. It might flag something major if it’s way off, but otherwise, why bother? And if something really is far off and the system is clearly unhealthy, my first step would be a large water change. That would restore most ions and trace elements back to the salt mix baseline. So I would spend $20 on salt, not $100 on ICP. If that didn't fix the issue, then trace is not likely the culprit.

 

[Dave-T]

If you do water changes, you’re getting trace replenishment.
The same is true if you do not do water changes but use Triton, Tropic Marin trace A/K, or similar products.

As Randy has pointed out, trace elements also come from food.

I don’t put much weight on “trace” quantification outside of a few major elements. I don’t see much value in ICP testing. It might flag something major if it’s way off, but otherwise, why bother? And if something really is far off and the system is clearly unhealthy, my first step would be a large water change. That would restore most ions and trace elements back to the salt mix baseline. So I would spend $20 on salt, not $100 on ICP. If that didn't fix the issue, then trace is not likely the culprit.

Well you do you. I'd rather monitor things with regular ICP (MS) testing, and try to maintain traces that way. My ICPs always show that traces are declining, and I feed a lot and do daily automated water changes. So clearly my traces are going down. I could wait until the system shows signs of being off, but I'd rather head it off at the pass and try to keep everything copacetic. Yes, this way costs more and is more work. Ok with me.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well you do you. I'd rather monitor things with regular ICP (MS) testing, and try to maintain traces that way. My ICPs always show that traces are declining, and I feed a lot and do daily automated water changes. So clearly my traces are going down. I could wait until the system shows signs of being off, but I'd rather head it off at the pass and try to keep everything copacetic. Yes, this way costs more and is more work. Ok with me.

I’m not sure why you felt the need to add “you do you.” I am not here to debate water changes, trace elements or ICP testing. You asked a question and I gave a simple answer with my reasoning. I think testing and water changes are a good thing. I just happen to not be interested in doing them anymore.

 

[Dave-T]

What question? I didn't ask a question. I have a lot or respect for you and your reefing knowledge, but you seemed to be making statements in counterpoint to what I was saying. It seemed like you were debating what I was saying. Saying things like "why bother" about ICP testing. Although I don't think I said anything incorrect. Anyway, that's what I was responding to.

 

[zheka757]

FWIW, I think folks greatly underestimate the trace elements that come from foods. For many I think they are a bigger source than water changes.

this bags the question, how did trace elements became a thing in ocean? if your claim is from foods like pellets, which is dried up sea food, then technically a very established tank should self sustain those trace elements from decaying bacteria/ or larger organisms? or is it animal waste converting into trace elements through nitrogen cycle?
I don't know anything about this subject, but curios how and from what trace element came to ocean life.
I also don't believe that dried up salt can contain all or most trace elements.

 

[BeanAnimal]

What question? I didn't ask a question.

You asked..

So you dose no traces at all? Nothing but alk, calc, and mag? What kind of corals do you have?

And

I guess that guesstimates your trace consumption based on your alk or mag consumption?

I was just trying to provide you an answer with some context.

Saying things like "why bother" about ICP testing.

Outside of some edge cases, I don’t see a lot of value in ICP testing. The why bother was in context to my personal experience and explanation, it wasn’t directed at you. That is why the “you do you” caught me off guard.

All good…
Happy Reefing

 

[Dave-T]

You asked..

And


I was just trying to provide you an answer with some context.


Outside of some edge cases, I don’t see a lot of value in ICP testing. The why bother was in context to my personal experience and explanation, it wasn’t directed at you. That is why the “you do you” caught me off guard.

All good…
Happy Reefing

Those are the questions you were answering? The first two questions were before the post I was responding to. The last question you didn't answer, but was looking for confirmation.

Anyhew, you didn't answer the question about what types of corals you have. That would be useful to know, for someone who wants to decide if your situation is applicable to them.

And one point I was trying to stress, that your statement "If you do water changes, you’re getting trace replenishment" seems to contradict, is that it is not possible to maintain NSW levels of trace elements through water changes alone, if your salt mix contains NSW levels. And this is an issue if your traces are getting depleted, which is generally true in every reef tank. I know you know this, but it seems that some people are confused about that.

 

[Mike 1.025]

When i started this hobby in 2014 (thanks to my hubby for getting us into the hobby) I was always preached to by LFS, water change water change water change...well thats not always the case...im going on nearly 2 years now with my Waterbox 155.5 Infinia frag with not a single water change !!! With the diligence of keeping parameters in check ... and in all honestly im reall not that strickt in myself....monthly (or every other month or so) ICP tests and the discipline i have found for myself in Reef Moonshiner's this has been an amazing journey....tank is thriving...I am keeping almost every type of coral...SPS...LPS...softies, gargonians....everything from leathers, acropora, zoas to gonis .
This tank is run on the basics of equipment... filter floss filtration ( pillow stuffing from Walmart) , cheato and miracle mud in the refugium, skimmer and uv , running at night.
Auto dosing calcium, alkalinity, iron and manganese.

Looks amazing!