A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

Oh No! Not the Banana Plague

 

[eatbreakfast]

Someone once said something like: "The only way to underestimate the impact of microbes on our lives is to fail to account for them."
(Mighta been Zimmerman, but he also mighta been quoting someone else....and the article is gone.)

We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought

^---That's the scientists talking c.2013.

Nobody is saying bacteria is not important. The statement I made that you quoted was specifically related to the ages of 2 long-lived individuals, in that if bacteria and 'dirty conditions' which were more pprevelent'back in the day" then why weren't people with that longevity more commonplace. The answer has more to do with genetics than dirty rags over cuts.

 

[Paul B]

Bacteria, Not dirty conditions. Bacteria are not dirty, they are plants. I would not suggest a dirty tank or a dirty home. A large part of us and fish is bacteria "and" parasites.
I am still waiting for those 25 year old, spawning, quarantined fish that have never been sick.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Bacteria are not dirty, they are plants.

Bacteria are not plants.

 

[Paul B]

Bacteria are not plants.

OK, but they "used" to be plants when I studied them. Now they are :prokaryotes. But I couldn't spell that and I didn't want to look it up, but you are correct. They are prokaryotes. Sorry for the mis information. (they still look like plants to me)

Once regarded as plants constituting the class Schizomycetes, bacteria are now classified as prokaryotes. Unlike cells of animals and other eukaryotes, bacterial cells do not contain a nucleus and rarely harbour membrane-bound organelles. Although the term bacteria traditionally included all prokaryotes, the scientific classification changed after the discovery in the 1990s that prokaryotes consist of two very different groups of organisms that evolved from an ancient common ancestor. These evolutionary domains are called Bacteria and Archaea.[1]

In this hobby we call a few things by the incorrect name. Protein skimmers don't skim protein and are actually foam fractionators. Scooter bleenies are dragonettes etc.
I will try to get all my names straight although they may be wrong too. When I started in this hobby ich was oodinium, then coral fish disease, then white spot disease now it is ich. Next year it may be something else, either way it is a silly, non issue parasite.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Get out of the 70s, Dude... they haven't been plants for quite some time. (JOKING!)

 

[eatbreakfast]

Bacteria, Not dirty conditions. Bacteria are not dirty, they are plants. I would not suggest a dirty tank or a dirty home. A large part of us and fish is bacteria "and" parasites.
I am still waiting for those 25 year old, spawning, quarantined fish that have never been sick.

I can't give you 25 yr old fish. I have only kept saltwater for the last 9. The first few years I didn't qt and everything went along fine, until I lost about a third of the fish I had. Thinking I had learned how to spot and manage with disease I continued on my way, all the while feeding a fresh seafood diet. A year later I lost a few more fish. It was then I learned that if I ever had the chance I would qt.

After switching houses 2x in 3 months I restarted a reef in the beginning of 2015. So I can't show 25yr old fish. I also don't have many paired fish, as most of the fish I keep transition to male, so it isn't really worth having prs. But I do habe a pr of marine bettas, and if I get an endoscopic camera I can show you they spawned. I just got a pr of clowns last week(at the insistance of wife and kids), so when they get sexually mature they will spawn. The male wrasses I have nightly go into nuptial displays, so they are conditioned to spawn, just don't have a partner. I have a starry blenny that in the evenings turns his whole body white while keeping his head dark, which is a nuptial display, but he doesn't have a partner. I have a male huchtii anthias that would go into a nuptial display with a female parvirostis anthias, until she transitioned into male.

The lifespans of the wrasses and anthias also don't reach 25yrs, so around 5-8yrs is more like it. But when my clowns and marine bettas do if your still around I'll gladly let you know.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I can't give you 25 yr old fish. I have only kept saltwater for the last 9. The first few years I didn't qt and everything went along fine, until I lost about a third of the fish I had. Thinking I had learned how to spot and manage with disease I continued on my way, all the while feeding a fresh seafood diet. A year later I lost a few more fish. It was then I learned that if I ever had the chance I would qt.

After switching houses 2x in 3 months I restarted a reef in the beginning of 2015. So I can't show 25yr old fish. I also don't have many paired fish, as most of the fish I keep transition to male, so it isn't really worth having prs. But I do habe a pr of marine bettas, and if I get an endoscopic camera I can show you they spawned. I just got a pr of clowns last week(at the insistance of wife and kids), so when they get sexually mature they will spawn. The male wrasses I have nightly go into nuptial displays, so they are conditioned to spawn, just don't have a partner. I have a starry blenny that in the evenings turns his whole body white while keeping his head dark, which is a nuptial display, but he doesn't have a partner. I have a male huchtii anthias that would go into a nuptial display with a female parvirostis anthias, until she transitioned into male.

The lifespans of the wrasses and anthias also don't reach 25yrs, so around 5-8yrs is more like it. But when my clowns and marine bettas do if your still around I'll gladly let you know.

You've only been keeping fish for nine years?

 

[alanbetiger]

Tank has only been set up for 1.5 years so you'll have to wait another 23 years...Being a student and moving countries multiple times does not offer the opportunity to have a long lasting system.
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong Paul. But it might help with some confusion.
Do you use the word Immune as a very broad sense of the word really meaning "Healthier". The innate immune system such as skin barrier. Not the adaptive immune system which requires previous exposure to make specific antibodies. If your fish were truly Immune and gained an adaptive immune response to infection you should be able to transfer them straight into another system and they still wouldn't get sick. On that note personally I don't think stimulating the adaptive immune system with disease makes anyone healthier. Someone who lived through whooping cough (I picked something less deadly than The Plague ) isn't healthier to someone who has never been exposed. Yes the second exposure to the survivor will do better than someone's first exposure.
Also contaminated environment or bacteria. There is no way for any tank to be sterile, hopefully we all know this. Without some form of bacteria the nitrogen cycle will not exist. Life would not exist. Maybe you mean pathogenic vs non pathogenic bacteria/parasites? Adding known pathogenic organisms such as Brook or Ich doesn't sound like an ideal situation. What is sounds like you read some of your posts is that you are advocating adding everything known to man nonpathogenic and pathogenic organisms into your tank. By doing that your fish will be Immune.

I do not mean this sarcastically at all. But to even have a physical tank last 40+ years is amazing. By that I mean the silicone seams, the literal tank itself. There will be numerous people who will not be able to even attempt your 25 year timeframe simply because their tank seams failed them. I'll be happy if my seams last 10 years. Transferring everything into a new tank will disrupt something and cause a restart.

 

[Humblefish]

Paul, both pairs of fish below were in my care for many years, were QT'd and spawned regularly. They still continue to spawn in their new homes.

They spawn too!

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Wait, so what are "we" trying to say? QT'd fish can't be healthy? QT'd fish won't spawn?

 

[eatbreakfast]

You've only been keeping fish for nine years?

Saltwater, yes. Freshwater, as long as I can remember. I got hired at an LFS in the fall of 2007, and knew next to nothing about saltwater. But I love fish and can't learn enough about them.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Paul, both pairs of fish below were in my care for many years, were QT'd and spawned regularly. They still continue to spawn in their new homes.

They spawn too!

This reminds me, I also have a pr of cleaner shrimp and a pr of blood shrimp that always have a clutch of eggs.

 

[mcarroll]

The answer has more to do with genetics[...]

What if I said bacteria were even responsible for a lot of genetics? Especially where genetics "meet the pavement".

What if I also said food (and other materials we ingest) is integral with their responsibility?

And the point of that link was that as of four years ago – 2013...a small amount of time even on the internet – even scientists were saying that the role of bacteria in life is vastly underestimated. It seems likely that you and I both still do.

Your quote earlier also referred to peanut allergy, BTW.

• Are peanut allergies just genetics?
• Or are peanut allergies a side-effect of ingesting the residues from fumigation treatments that non-organic peanuts are routinely subjected to?
• Or is it the ingesting of the fungus that grows on peanuts* when they don't adequately fumigate or if they're stored improperly?
• Or are kids already-susceptible to all this in the first place because they have been compromised by e.g. antibiotics use, NSAID's**, or other events which can potentially allow bad belly things (or other bad belly things) to happen? (just a few examples)
• Or is it some/all of these things in combination?

I don't have many answers, but those are all legit questions. Saying "that's just genetics" doesn't really get it done anymore...at least not since 2013.

* from the fungus link:

Peanuts are susceptible to a number of disease problems that can result in yield losses. These include southern stem rot (Sclerotium rolfsii), white mold (Sclerotinia minor), fungal leaf spots, rust, root knot nematode, and TSWV. Contamination from a toxin-forming fungi (Aspergillus spp.) can occur in storage when peanuts are improperly cured.

** from the NSAID link:

Q. What are the risks of taking NSAIDs?
A. As with all drugs, there is the potential for an allergic reaction to NSAIDs. Symptoms might include hives, facial swelling, wheezing and skin rash.

There is the potential for gastrointestinal bleeding (bleeding in the stomach or elsewhere in the digestive tract) associated with all NSAIDs. The risk of bleeding is low for people who use NSAIDs intermittently. The risk of stomach problems goes up for people who take them every day or regularly, especially for people who are older than 65, people with a history of stomach ulcers, and people who take blood thinners or corticosteroids (prednisone). Alcohol use can also increase the risk of stomach problems.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, both pairs of fish below were in my care for many years, were QT'd and spawned regularly. They still continue to spawn in their new homes.

Bob, the mandarins are great to spawn but not the clownfish as they will spawn in a damp paper towel that has been rubbed with a potato chip to add some salt. I assume your clowns will also reach 26 years old but they will probably not respect you. Shrimps also, you can't get them to stop spawning but that shows they are healthy.

Wait, so what are "we" trying to say? QT'd fish can't be healthy? QT'd fish won't spawn?

No we are saying quarantined mandarins, shrimp and clowns will spawn in Bob's tank as he knows what he is doing.

Saltwater, yes. Freshwater, as long as I can remember. I got hired at an LFS in the fall of 2007, and knew next to nothing about saltwater. But I love fish and can't learn enough about them.

I also love fish. I just bought a pound of cod and a pound of lemon sole for dinner tonight. I started keeping fish in 1952 but that was before they invented water so we kept them in damp sawdust.

The lifespans of the wrasses and anthias also don't reach 25yrs, so around 5-8yrs is more like it. But when my clowns and marine bettas do if your still around I'll gladly let you know.

OK I will be waiting but I am sure I will be deaf, blind and probably dead in 25 years so I won't now if I am wrong or not. But I am sure Humble will wake me up to tell me.

Get out of the 70s, Dude... they haven't been plants for quite some time. (JOKING!)

Lionfish, Ok, but remember that bacteria were called plants for 47 million years and were just called prokaryotes since the 70s. So as far as I am concerned, they are still plants.

Ed, I don't know that much about peanuts except what I said. Growing up I never heard of anyone allergic to peanuts, now it seems everyone is allergic to them.
I also know that I have been keeping salt water fish continuously since 1971 and I killed more fish than StarKist tuna. I also have spent about 300 hours underwater so I learned a few things. (Things that many Noobs try to discredit)
I learned how to keep my fish immune, Yes Allen, even from Bubonic Plague, velvet, crushed velvet and everything else. I can put any fish in my tank with any disease and he and the rest of my fish will be fine. In all those years I am sure I added everything. Try that with a tank full of quarantined fish.
Immune fish by nature would be healthier because having a fully functioning immune system is part of a fishes philosophy.
I could not keep a natural tank if I didn't have immune fish because I feed live foods, parasites and all and I add mud from the sea along with all sorts of living creatures for the diversity they bring.
I myself want to be immune from as many diseases as I can because I have been to many places in the world, some of which have malaria and al sorts of things. In the Army I became immune from those things because of the 30 or 40 shots I got before I went there. I could have went there in a bubble so I would not come in contact with anything but I prefer to be immune from those diseases and parasites.
So with 65 years of fish keeping I kind of know what I am doing and I have made all the mistakes and cured all the diseases many years before most people have been born. My knowledge, right or wrong came about by doing things, not quoting scientific studies, many of which I disagree with as most scientists do not keep fish tanks and they certainly don't participate in studies that last many years because the money runs out.
Am I the best fishkeeper? Certainly not and I never said I was. But my fish are immune, they will always be immune and all of the paired fish will spawn. It is just natural for them.
This thread was not a thread to justify quarantining or not, do what you want as both systems work, they just work differently. I believe that in the future none of us will have to quarantine because either they will develop vaccines for fish diseases or all of us will learn how to get our fish immune.
Have a great day and I really do love all of you guys and I am enjoying this conversation.

Here I am last week holding a lobster "teaching" a bunch of 4 year olds about sea life. No one argued with me.

 

[mcarroll]

Wait, so what are "we" trying to say? QT'd fish can't be healthy? QT'd fish won't spawn?

Excellent questions!

I think the thread is (still) talking about immunity.

"We're" trying to say, in a nutshell, that QT can have a negative impact on immunity. And that dysfunctional immunity why almost nobody has fish that survive – let alone spawn.

I think "others" are trying to say QT is a necessity in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Paul seems to have more breeding fish per square foot than anyone. Do "others" find that instructive? Nope. Impressive? Nope. Even that becomes a simple point of contest instead of a point of persuasion. A sure way to sideline the conversation....in a thread other than this one.

For many this seems like a discussion that needs no new input. QT = The Way. That's it. It's a complete (if circular) equation where the immune system plays a bit part or gets no regard whatsoever.

It's interesting for me to re-remember that this hobby was literally invented in 1852.

That's more than 160 years ago.

The reports in 1852 were to detail the ability to keep marine critters alive for >19 months in a tank.

With just enough exceptions to prove the rule: Our hobby's ability to keep fish alive has barely progressed from 1852 – any fish that live longer than 19 months are still a rarity today.

How are folks who can keep and breed seemingly any fish doing it differently from all those folks who can't?

QT is not the (only) difference even if you're using QT....or Paul would be unable to do the things he does without QT.

 

[Areseebee]

Excellent questions!

I think the thread is (still) talking about immunity.

"We're" trying to say, in a nutshell, that QT can have a negative impact on immunity. And that dysfunctional immunity why almost nobody has fish that survive – let alone spawn.

The big issue with this is that this is all being inferred based on numerous assumptions and no real data. It's basically an elaborate story inferred from a very narrow experience. Also you are making a classic mistake in the "nobody has fish that survive", you are comparing people with decades of experience with everyone else. Most of the people you see posting about disease and death are not comparable from an experience stand point. The experts, on both sides, have fish that survive and once again there's no meaningful data to suggest otherwise.

 

[justingraham]

Like can't we all just get along?

Can't we qt a fish and then feed it the live food? Give it the best of both sides?

I understand what Paul is trying to say about immunity but I also believe his fish are just healthy fish.

Also kinda hard to compare humans to fish two different entities.

Also how do I make my corals immune to red bugs and aefw? Or is immunity only for fish and humans? Corals aren't cool enough.

Look I'm relatively new to the hobby compared to Paul but velvet is out there and I don't want it in my tank so I qt'Ed my fish. But I feed exactly what Paul does and my anthias do there dance and my clown tries to get some from his reflection. And my gobbies burrow in the same hole.

Is my tank immune prolly not but I don't think I want to find out either.

 

[alanbetiger]

I did say my current tank was only running for 1.5 years (moved house and even though I transfered 4-5 year old fish I would consider this a restart), but have been keeping marine tanks since 1998. I'd still consider myself a noobie though and don't think anyone can stop learning.
Where I'm coming from isn't about whether or not to quarantine. It's whether or not to add known pathogens on purpose to cause 100% immunity. I don't THINK Paul's fish are immune because he's added everything under the sun into his tank. I think they are healthier because of his nutrition. Not exposure to pathogens.

 

[Humblefish]

I assume your clowns will also reach 26 years old but they will probably not respect you.

She respects her mates less than me, as she's killed 2 of them now in 14 years. ;Meh