A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

FishGeek, your tank looks great, better than mine. :D
But I am not a Marine Hero. Besides, I was in the Army :rolleyes:

Alan, I have been posting since they invented computers but this forum is relatively new. :cool:
Before computers I posted in magazines. Magazines are made out of paper which is the same thing we make trees out of. :rolleyes:

 

[Brew12]

I honestly thought you were saying this was the case. Thanks for the explanation.
Our definitions of Immune are different but similar. Definitely you have uber healthy fish.
I saw some of your posts (6000+ posts is hard to wade through!) that described situations where you introduced disease but couldn't see a step by step daily log with pictures of the fish or your other residents.

I do want to clarify something that makes Paul's system so amazing. When a person become immune to something, odds are we will remain immune for life. A fish will lose their immunity approximately 6 months after their last exposure to a parasite or pathogen. His system wouldn't work nearly as well if he didn't regularly introduce parasites into his system.

Its not a method that would work for me right now, so I QT the heck out of everything. However, if I could do what he does, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I do want to clarify something that makes Paul's system so amazing. When a person become immune to something, odds are we will remain immune for life. A fish will lose their immunity approximately 6 months after their last exposure to a parasite or pathogen. His system wouldn't work nearly as well if he didn't regularly introduce parasites into his system.

Its not a method that would work for me right now, so I QT the heck out of everything. However, if I could do what he does, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The life cycle of ick is much longer than that though correct? So would that no be a consideration? Once an ick tank always an ick tank, pathogens aside.
And yea it's been a bit since I looked at those.
So once a velvet tanks always a velvet tank?

 

[alanbetiger]

I'll agree to disagree about introducing pathogens on purpose to make for a healthier fish.
Having said that here's that free Regal Tang that had a few spots of Ich on Day 1 straight in the DT a few weeks ago. Fins are slowly re growing but doing good. I didn't quarantine. But I didn't add it straight into my display because it would help with immunity to the rest of my tank....

 

[Brew12]

The life cycle of ick is much longer than that though correct? So would that no be a consideration? Once an ick tank always an ick tank, pathogens aside.
And yea it's been a bit since I looked at those.
So once a velvet tanks always a velvet tank?

The studies I have seen show that parasites like ich and velvet in a closed system will stop being viable after around 4 years. So, in terms of the average hobbyist, yes once and ich tank, always an ich tank. In a system like Paul's where it has been running for 40+ years, not at all.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The studies I have seen show that parasites like ich and velvet in a closed system will stop being viable after around 4 years. So, in terms of the average hobbyist, yes once and ich tank, always an ich tank. In a system like Paul's where it has been running for 40+ years, not at all.

Sorry I lost you. Not at all?

 

[Brew12]

Sorry I lost you. Not at all?

In a tank that has been running for 40+ years he would have had to have introduced a minimum of 10 new strains of Ich to his system to keep his fish immune.
Had he not introduced new strains his tank would be ich free and his fish would have lost their immunity.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'll agree to disagree about introducing pathogens on purpose to make for a healthier fish.
Having said that here's that free Regal Tang that had a few spots of Ich on Day 1 straight in the DT a few weeks ago. Fins are slowly re growing but doing good. I didn't quarantine. But I didn't add it straight into my display because it would help with immunity to the rest of my tank....

Uh. I woulda qt that. Even In an ick management tank I would at least done a passive qt.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

In a tank that has been running for 40+ years he would have had to have introduced a minimum of 10 new strains of Ich to his system to keep his fish immune.
Had he not introduced new strains his tank would be ich free and his fish would have lost their immunity.

Ah got it. And we assume he's adding ten new strains of ick over the course of 6 years approximately. Plus other pathogens and parasites in order to remain immune.

No offense. But that gets a bit far fetched.

 

[Brew12]

Ah got it. And we assume he's adding ten new strains of ick over the course of 6 years approximately. Plus other pathogens and parasites in order to remain immune.

No offense. But that gets a bit far fetched.

Not offended at all. I think that is part of what makes his system so amazing. The science backs it up though.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Not offended at all. I think that is part of what makes his system so amazing. The science backs it up though.

I think that depends on what side of the table it's viewd from.

Ten types of ick. And a plethora of other pests and viruses.

Personally I like to stand on the table.

 

[Paul B]

I have no idea how many strains of ich I have added and I don't know if you can even figure that out. I do think that ich is in my system and the parasites are sampling some slime from my fish and reproducing nicely ,but I also think they are frustrated that they can't really infect my fish and can't hang on in their gills where they can really have a good meal. I don't feel bad for them but I always want them in my system and as long as I add a fish every year or so and collect mud and amphipods like I always have my fish have no fear of losing their immunity.
I have about 22 fish and they are always dying of old age because they won't live forever. I lost a bangai cardinal this year because their natural lifespan in the sea is only about 3 years. I still have her mate but he is well over the life span for a bangai and he is slowing down and developing cataracts. When he goes,I will replace him.

 

[Areseebee]

Not offended at all. I think that is part of what makes his system so amazing. The science backs it up though.

I think as far as the actual science goes it ends at "the adaptive immune system exists".

 

[eatbreakfast]

As the parasite goes through it life cycle after the initial blooms it should remove them all at some point then. Might take time but with no additions is should remove them I would think. Similar to the cycle of the other bugs in the case of ick. Pathogens are a bit different. Wouldn't those be removed more effectively if your correct?

So a qt for 72 days (for example) with a confirmed pathogenic illness should remove it no?

Sorry for the delay.

In theory, yes, ozone should be able to be used for qt, but it would depend on tank volume, flow, and a few other factors.

I think that the majority of hobbyists are reluctant to add a few hundred dollars more on qt.

Paul's "treatment" of obviously diseased fish is interesting as well. Diatom filters can pretty effectively pull out parasites in their freeswimming form.

 

[Paul B]

Of course we are getting along. We are talking about fish, not space shuttles or Supermodels. I eat fish almost every day. Besides, Humble can probably take me in a fair fight because I am older then dirt.

Most Noobs (I am not really talking about you Humble, but your still a Noob :D) make too much out of this. It doesn't matter what strain of parasites you have or how long their life cycle is or what books they read. All creatures have an immune system, even parasites, and they need to be in contact occasionally to become immune from them. I don't know if any of you SCUBA dive but if you do, bring a microscope with you the next time you do and you will see the sea is filled with parasites and fish encounter them every 17" they swim. (I guessed at that distance, it could be 19")
Also in the sea fish eat mostly smaller fish or pieces of smaller fish after a larger fish chops them up for the,. Those prey fish are filled with parasites in their gut. (cleaner fish "live" on parasites) Fish are designed to deal with those parasites because they get them at every meal. A fishes kidney is huge and that's where most of it's immunity occurs unlike us who have bone marrow, lymph nodes and emergency medical rooms.
Fish are better suited to process parasites then us because they live in water and parasites can swim better then they can fly so we don't encounter as many parasites and the diet of most Americans is potato chips and beer so they have little to be concerned about when it comes to parasites.
But if you eat fresh fish a lot, not Mrs Pauls Fish Sticks you can see the parasites and worms very often in freshly caught fish. The guy in the fish market cuts them out if he sees them but they are there in most fish. They are a normal, natural part of fish and don't harm them. They enhance their immunity.

Fish are not delicate but reading these forums you would think we would have to go to church and make a Novena every time we put one in our tank.
Fish just want to be in a natural setting, I know as I can read their mind. They do not like pristine, crystal clear water with nothing floating in it especially small fish who are planktonfores. (I can't spell that and spell check has no Idea)
My smaller fish sit all day watching for tiny particles and they sample the ones that look like Tator Tots.
They want meaty food with bacteria in it, preferably something that was in the sea this century and not something dry, processed, pasteurized flattened and put in a can that reads "Dolphin Safe" with a shelf live in four years.

Fish also do not want to be in fake seawater that is changed every week. Older water is much better and healthier because all the things in seawater add substances to water, especially algae that everyone thinks is a curse. When this hobby started we used to treasure our old, green water and never change too much of it.
Look at fish in a new tank with all new water. Do they look healthy? Look harder. No, they don't. If new water was so good why do the fish look so bad, why do their colors fade? Why don't we change 100% of our water all the time? Try it and see if your fish keep texting you. ;Wideyed

 

[Paul B]

Paul's "treatment" of obviously diseased fish is interesting as well. Diatom filters can pretty effectively pull out parasites in their freeswimming form.

State of the art in 1964, but most Noobs never heard of it and would rather dose bleach, copper, Prizapro, corn starch, stump remover, DDT, Coppersafe, or dip in fresh water. Fish hate that. :eek:

 

[hartin461]

I love it. Thanks Paul.. One of the biggest gripes I have is to read all these post of someones fish has died in quarantine. Then they go on about geesh he was eating like a pig, I don`t know what happened. They treated for this and treated for that and moved the fish into several different containers, can`t imagine?
Love to start my day reading your post. Should be the new dailey devotion for reefing..;) Just a passing thought on QT, if the fish you have bought looks fine and you want to qt it then why not just put it in a separate tank and leave it alone for a period to see if it does develope something then treat as necessary? Just some ramblings, not approved by anyone..

 

[eatbreakfast]

Just a passing thought on QT, if the fish you have bought looks fine and you want to qt it then why not just put it in a separate tank and leave it alone for a period to see if it does develope something then treat as necessary?

Becaue they can still be carriers of pathogens. There are methods such as TTM that don't use medicines. And there are ways to filter pathogens in qt as well.

The vast majority of fish that get sick and die do so without any attempts to qt. No, qt is not perfect and some fish don't survive the process, but for most hobbyists a qt procedure will save far more fish than it will harm.

 

[Areseebee]

For every post about a fish dying in QT there's one dump and pray saying "never saw him again" or finding some backwards explanation for why it didn't work.

 

[Paul B]

For every post about a fish dying in QT there's one dump and pray saying "never saw him again" or finding some backwards explanation for why it didn't work.

That's true and you can't just dump a fish in a tank unless you run an immune tank. Most tanks are not immune and if you feed predominately dry foods, your fish will not be immune. If you quarantined everything, your tank is not immune, if your fish are not in spawning condition, your tank is not immune. If you never add foods with live bacteria, your tank is not immune. If you sterilized your water using bleach, copper, prozapro etc, your tank is not immune. There are some steps to go through to have an immune tank just like there are steps to go through if you want to quarantine.
Both systems will work, it just depends on you. I prefer a natural, healthy tank with spawning fish that have all the immunity they had in the sea. But in a confined tank, you can keep pathogens out of your tank, it's your choice.
I never have to worry about what I add to my tank and that includes live foods such as worms. You should not feed live worms or anything else to a quarantined tank because those foods carry harmful bacteria and possibly parasites. My system depends on live foods to keep the fish in excellent condition through those same pathogens the food supplies.
You also should never take anything from the sea and put it in a quarantined tank unless you quarantine it. That includes corals, crabs, shrimp, seaweeds etc.
You can search for quarantined tanks that crashed by disease by doing that.
My tank and system seems bulletproof as I don't have to worry about any of that and I do take all sorts of things from the sea and throw it in my tank. My tank was started with NSW that I collected in the East River next to Manhattan.
My purpose is not to argue, they are your fish, do what you want with them. I am just here to show another way that may be of interest to some hobbyists. A system that has worked flawlessly with not one fish dying from disease in about 40 years.

This was about where I collected water to start my tank.