A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[davidcalgary29]

The only thing that seems to be apparent is there is no system that will satisfy everyone.

I've started five builds (all still running) over the past eight months, and quarantined all incoming livestock with the exception of my last tank, a used (dry) Reefer 350. I've been attacked, randomly -- and that's fine! -- for encouraging quarantine, so decided to give the non QT approach a try. To cut the story short, I've just lost every fish but one in that tank, as I managed to grab an angry goby and throw into a hospital tank with copper. And yes, it was a disease, but most of the fish showed no symptoms at all except the last survivor, a juvie niger trigger that was covered with something right before it died. It wasn't ich, and probably not velvet, it didn't look like brook, and it was not neobenedenia flukes (I gave the dead trigger a FW dip -- nothing). Yes, ammonia was at 0. Yes, I only fed frozen and live foods. Yes, the live rock had been in a fallow system for three months before I added it to my own (it was from a tank breakdown from someone who was moving, and kept it clean enough that it didn't come with any hitchhikers or nuisance algae).

People should also realize that the only legal treatment option open to private owners in Canada is copper or hypo. We can't legally use or get prazi, or chloroquine phosphate, or anything else everyone else uses. I've heard that a few people have gotten prescriptions from vets for drugs, but that's just not an option if you don't live in a big city.

I didn't lose one fish to disease in all the other tanks where I used QT protocols. I'm going to go back to quarantine. Period.

 

[Righteous]

I think what he is saying is why do people let fish fight off stuff themselves yet we treat dogs/cats/humans/livestock and so on. Everything has an immune system but practices are very different. I would say it is because they are fish. If I lose a fish I will be sad but go to work and continue but if my dog suddenly died I would be in tears and call in sick. Also bringing a fish to the vet is not common practice so people are left to being their own vet.

FYI, you don’t really have to lock a fish in a small box to treat it. There is nothing saying you can’t use a large roomy tank with natural looking decor and quality foods. I am sure most QT procedures could be improved upon though may not be spouse friendly. For example, Paul touched on this saying use bricks instead of white pvc which fish hate.

I honestly get sad when my fish die. I really do. I get bumbed for a couple days.

Letting immune systems fight off stuff is a balancing act I think. There are known pathogens that are so harmful and so difficult for the immune system to deal with we generally use prophylaxis. In humans we have measles for instance, or small pox. Those needed world wide campaigns of vaccination in order to deal with them.

Velvet for instance may be such a pathogen at least for our aquariums. I don’t know for sure though, and we don’t have a ton of data to go on, mostly common sense, our basic understanding of the parasite life cycle, etc. I believe I have seen stories of people who have had velvet in their tanks with fishes that heal and survive. But we definitely know that it can completely wipe out a tank. We just don’t always know why the scenarios differ. Its so hard to really tell sometimes because there are so many confounding factors, and people aren’t always clear about what happened.

So I think that’s basically what the discussion has been revolving around.

For the record if I saw a fish completely covered in velvet, I wouldn’t add it to my tank. If I saw a fish with Ich spots, I would (and have) rather than initially place it in a hospital or QT tank.

 

[Shooter6]

Oh I see. I thought the thread was about QT fish before adding them to a DT not dog worms. Its good to have your dog checked for worms when you buy one but I would not lock it in a kennel for 2 months to see if its sick.

I added 5 tangs to my tank over 3 months ago including a Gem tang. The next day they all had spots all over them except for the Clown tang. Ich I guess. The Clown tang with no spots constantly swam into the wave makers and died within a week. With good nutrition, garlic and vitimans all the rest cleared up and are thriving. The Purple tang had the hardest time shaking it. It took him about a mounth. Its been over 3 months now. Documented in my 900 build thread. I almost went for a reef safe ich treatment but didnt. I think ich is everywere. A good healthy fish in a good inviroment will have a great immune system and fight off infection. Oh, just like humans.

Do you give your dog heartworm protection/ flea protection meds? ( anti parasite) or do you just say we'll you didnt die from fleas yet so your immune system must be strong enough to keep them away? That's what your promoting others to do with their fish.

 

[PanchoG]

There are pluses and minuses to both approaches, and there isn't a "should" or a "shouldn't" to it. Whether some YouTube personalities do or don't quarantine is irrelevant to whether you choose to QT or not.

The choice to QT or not is a calculated risk. If you don't QT, you're basically relying on your sources to give you relatively clean fish, and on the health of your tank to give fish the environment they need to thrive and not succumb to diseases. That might include feeding heavier, providing special foods, or giving your fish some extra TLC. And of course, if all that fails, you could lose your entire population.

If you do QT, you're likely keeping the risk to your overall tank lower, but you might be spending time and money on something that isn't necessary. You also might stress out new arrivals more than is necessary, and you might lose fish in your QT that would have survived if you had put them into your DT straightaway.

There is no absolute wrong or right answer and it's always a choice you're going to have to make yourself, but statistically you're probably better off QT'ing than not.

This is the correct answer.

I personally do not QT anything.

 

[Shooter6]

Here is the facts. ALL public aquariums qt and medicate all their livestock. Every SeaWorld livestock pass trough a qt and medication procedure. This is for a very good reason. The BEST option is to setup a qt/med protocol for all livestock and follow it religiously!
If you choose not to, that is fine FOR YOU, but you should NOT promote others to do so too. YOU choose to gamble, but like a drug addiction should not be trying to get others to use with you.

I am not shaming anyone for choosing not to qt/med their livestock, BUT I do HAVE TO call them out for trying to convince others to do the same, as they know they are constantly at risk of a complete wipe out! And are setting others up for the same failure!!

 

[Righteous]

Just to put to bed the whole “if you don’t QT fish your don’t care about them” …

Im assuming those of us that have kids let them outside… let them go to school etc etc. I for instance encouraged my son to play in the dirt, and put things in his mouth. But I also made sure he had all his vaccines. And I also made sure if he got Strep throat I gave him antibiotics.

The safest thing perhaps would be to keep children sheltered. Not send them to school where kids sneeze and wipe snot all over the place. But there’s a lot of evidence that kids in too sterile of environments ultimately suffer more from autoimmune or immune deficiency issues.

So again it’s a balance. We’ve got a lot more guidance and science about this in our own lives, and with our children, and heck even with dogs. Aquariums are much more complicated, which is why it’s a challenging hobby.

 

[Billldg]

No offense - It is a discussion board right? I haven't seen anyone 'talking bad' about any other person's method in this thread. People are having a discussion.

About the behavior of parasites in the tank vs. the ocean - the danger of parasites causing much more severe disease in a tank as compared to in the open sea - is a concept much studies and proven in biology. Not just in fish, but humans, other mammals, fish farms, etc. The more 'crowded' an area is, the more likely spread of a parasite (or disease) is to occur. Thats not a theory, its a fact

Specifically in fish tanks, where there are lets say 10 fish, and an 11th is added with CI or velvet, etc. The parasites drop off the first host. In the ocean, those parasites would be widely dispersed - and not usually cause a problem. In a tank, it becomes a downward cascade - with each fish subsequently getting the parasite adding more and more and more to the tank - that at times, even the most healthy fish will succumb. (its the concept of the LD50).

There is no clean evidence that I have seen that adding parasites to a tank does anything but risk problems - especially if the fish in that tank are not in top shape (which is usually the case after long shipments, etc). In fact, I don't know how anyone following that theory has any clue which, if any, parasites they are adding.

UMMM!!!! Did I say anyone was saying anything offensive?

If so, please specify.

 

[Righteous]

I am not shaming anyone for choosing not to qt/med their livestock, BUT I do HAVE TO call them out for trying to convince others to do the same, as they know they are constantly at risk of a complete wipe out! And are setting others up for the same failure!!

Would you call out others that allow their children to play in the dirt and perhaps get worms?

Perhaps you think it’s dangerous. The science however says it’s the best way to prevent auto immune disease.

I think the missing element here is if your calling someone out, you better have a lot of facts and science on your side, not anecdotes or “everyone does it”.

Everyone used to take mercury and lead elixirs for health. Radium was also a common medicine (now known to be radioactive and cause cancer)

So just be careful whom you call out and why. And instead of calling people out, maybe we can all be humble and ask questions and learn.

And I don’t see anyone trying to convince anyone to do anything. I certainly haven’t. I only point out where knowledge is lacking especially when others attempt to say they know for certain one way or another.

 

[Tamberav]

Do you give your dog heartworm protection/ flea protection meds? ( anti parasite) or do you just say we'll you didnt die from fleas yet so your immune system must be strong enough to keep them away? That's what your promoting others to do with their fish.

Inagine if ich was transmissible to humans like fleas. Lol dang sure I wouldn’t let no ich get in. I don’t want to be scratching every time I put my hand in the tank!

 

[Shooter6]

Yo

Just to put to bed the whole “if you don’t QT fish your don’t care about them” …

Im assuming those of us that have kids let them outside… let them go to school etc etc. I for instance encouraged my son to play in the dirt, and put things in his mouth. But I also made sure he had all his vaccines. And I also made sure if he got Strep throat I gave him antibiotics.

The safest thing perhaps would be to keep children sheltered. Not send them to school where kids sneeze and wipe snot all over the place. But there’s a lot of evidence that kids in too sterile of environments ultimately suffer more from autoimmune or immune deficiency issues.

So again it’s a balance. We’ve got a lot more guidance and science about this in our own lives, and with our children, and heck even with dogs. Aquariums are much more complicated, which is why it’s a challenging hobby.

Your reef is full of bacteria, not sterile, your fish swim in their own poop water. BUT they don't need to or benefit from dealing with parasites. This is where you seem to be unable to see the separation. Your lumping in bacteria that surrounds us and them in daily life, with parasites, that you would not allow your child, dog or yourself to be inflicted with, and not cure.
This is what a qt/med treatment protocol accomplishes. It is not to sterilize your reef by any stretch of the imagination

 

[Tamberav]

I really never understood when people bring up virus and bacteria to compare to fish parasites.

A better comparison would be lice or pinworms. Gross. I am sure most people don’t let their kids keep those. My head itches just thinking about it.

 

[Shooter6]

Would you call out others that allow their children to play in the dirt and perhaps get worms?

Perhaps you think it’s dangerous. The science however says it’s the best way to prevent auto immune disease.

I think the missing element here is if your calling someone out, you better have a lot of facts and science on your side, not anecdotes or “everyone does it”.

Everyone used to take mercury and lead elixirs for health. Radium was also a common medicine (now known to be radioactive and cause cancer)

So just be careful whom you call out and why. And instead of calling people out, maybe we can all be humble and ask questions and learn.

And I don’t see anyone trying to convince anyone to do anything. I certainly haven’t. I only point out where knowledge is lacking especially when others attempt to say they know for certain one way or another.

Your refusing to accept science and continue to say prove it to me. People also only used to bath once a year, believing to bath opened them up to infections, then the plague hit wiping out a huge part of civilization. So your point is way off base. Again do you let any other pet or your kid to be infected with parasites, or curable disease? No and if they are you get them treated, unless your one of those anti vaccine or anti medicine religion people?

 

[Shooter6]

I really never understood when people being up virus and bacteria to compare to fish parasites.

A better comparison would be lice or pinworms. Gross. I am sure most people don’t let their kids keep those. My head itches just thinking about it.

This is exactly my point!

 

[Tamberav]

My cat doesn’t have worms or fleas but still has a immune system. They don’t get sick when I take them out on a leash and they play in the grass or eat a bug. They eat raw meat with organs and meat and bone and certainly bacteria that I grind and prep myself.

It’s not like they are living in a sterile bubble. They just don’t have any blood suckers on them.

My fish were QT but they still live in a bacterial soup and still eat fresh and live foods including worms every day. I don’t see how they could have a weak immune system just because they haven’t encountered velvet in awhile.

 

[Righteous]

Yo

Your reef is full of bacteria, not sterile, your fish swim in their own poop water. BUT they don't need to or benefit from dealing with parasites. This is where you seem to be unable to see the separation. Your lumping in bacteria that surrounds us and them in daily life, with parasites, that you would not allow your child, dog or yourself to be inflicted with, and not cure.
This is what a qt/med treatment protocol accomplishes. It is not to sterilize your reef by any stretch of the imagination

Im sorry, but the science doesn’t back this statement up. Parasites are all around us. Certainly there are a very many of them in dirt. IgE antibodies are part of the immune system that deal with these pathogens. And again, there’s a lot of evidence that exposure from the environment plays an important role in adapting the immune system to deal with them.

As an example, it’s been noted that avoiding peanut butter in very young children actually seems to increase the level of peanut allergies. It seems that training the immune system early is a better bet than avoiding peanuts all together because they might be dangerous. Allergies, btw, seem to be an overreaction of the IgE system, and are far far more common in developed nations with far more sterile environments.

Immunoglobulin E - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I still think if your going to attempt to debate and tell people they are wrong about a subject, you should have a large body of knowledge on that subject. The immune system is extremely complex. I could go into vast detail about adaptive versus innate immunity. The role of T-cells and B-cells, antigen-presenting cells, the major histocompatibility complex, etc etc.

But that’s the thing. I know enough to know these things are complicated and simple answers and simple arguments don’t do anyone any good.

 

[Righteous]

I really never understood when people bring up virus and bacteria to compare to fish parasites.

A better comparison would be lice or pinworms. Gross. I am sure most people don’t let their kids keep those. My head itches just thinking about it.

They all can be pathogens. Bacteria can and do live in guts and are extremely important for good health.

Parasites like brook are tiny multicellular organisms.

But in any case, a fish gets rid of them with an immune reaction. That’s why we talk about them in the context of disease, the same way fish heal from viruses or pathogenic bacteria.

 

[Tamberav]

Man I have terrible seasonal allergies and grew up on a hobby farm with tons of animals playing in the dirt and dander and catching frogs and snakes.

Science failed me and I blame genetics (thanks dad!).

 

[Righteous]

Man I have terrible seasonal allergies and grew up on a hobby farm with tons of animals playing in the dirt and dander and catching frogs and snakes.

I blame genetics (thanks dad!).

Its certainly part of the process! But have you solved the answer to who and why people get allergies? Because if you know for certain it’s only genetic and not environmental then you’ll make a killing.

 

[Shooter6]

Im sorry, but the science doesn’t back this statement up. Parasites are all around us. Certainly there are a very many of them in dirt. IgE antibodies are part of the immune system that deal with these pathogens. And again, there’s a lot of evidence that exposure from the environment plays an important role in adapting the immune system to deal with them.

As an example, it’s been noted that avoiding peanut butter in very young children actually seems to increase the level of peanut allergies. It seems that training the immune system early is a better bet than avoiding peanuts all together because they might be dangerous. Allergies, btw, seem to be an overreaction of the IgE system, and are far far more common in developed nations with far more sterile environments.

Immunoglobulin E - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I still think if your going to attempt to debate and tell people they are wrong about a subject, you should have a large body of knowledge on that subject. The immune system is extremely complex. I could go into vast detail about adaptive versus innate immunity. The role of T-cells and B-cells, antigen-presenting cells, the major histocompatibility complex, etc etc.

But that’s the thing. I know enough to know these things are complicated and simple answers and simple arguments don’t do anyone any good.

Your ignorance floors me. You are still lumping parasites in with bacteria ect. You really believe that your immune system fights off parasites, that you are constantly exposed to? Since your immune system is so strong, why don't you swallow tape worm eggs and then 30 days later get tested? Because you know dam well you will test positive for tape worms and require anti parasite meds! There is no science that will satisfy your need, for you to admit what is the best choice, even if you choose not to make it.
Answer me this why do ALL PUBLIC AQUARIUMS, SEAWORLD, RESEARCH FACILITIES ECT qt and medicate their fish and livestock accordingly?

 

[Shooter6]

They all can be pathogens. Bacteria can and do live in guts and are extremely important for good health.

Parasites like brook are tiny multicellular organisms.

But I’m any case, a fish gets rid of them with an immune reaction. That’s why we talk another then in the context of disease, the same way fish heal from viruses or pathogenic bacteria.

So they get rid of brook? Ich, velvet, tapeworms ect parasites? By immunity? No the parasites follow a life cycle. And are continually attacking the fish. Ich and velvet attack the gills as well as the skin.