A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[Shooter6]

With those two damsels, I learned never to pick up fish within days of their arrival at the store. Wait at least a week even if you have to prepay. That way, they have a chance to recover from the store delivery before they are stressed again. Make the LFS feed them before they are bagged!

The lfs tanks are likely to be a source of contamination as any where else along the supply chain. When was the last time you saw your lfs empty and sterilize their tanks that you buy fish out of? Probably never happens!

 

[Sebastiancrab]

The lfs tanks are likely to be a source of contamination as any where else along the supply chain. When was the last time you saw your lfs empty and sterilize their tanks that you buy fish out of? Probably never happens!

I think you can assume there is contamination from one end of the supply chain to the other. My best LFS runs copper in their tanks all the time.

 

[Righteous]

Dilution/ die off from failure to find host. Vs a box of water that the parasite can explode in.
2 cyst burst releasing 1million babies. 1 burst in the ocean, 1 in your aquarium. How many of those 1 million in the ocean will find a host, vs in your aquarium......

This may indeed be the case, but I’ve never seen any data with regard to that.

Here’s another possibility. Most aquariums are velvet free (unlike the ocean). Fish then either lose temporary immunity or never develop any. Therefore when a fish with velvet is added, in addition to the extreme high load of free swimmers in a small tank, we have massive casualties. In the ocean, constant low level infection may provide resistance.

Here’s an experiment that showed that antibody response to velvet could inhibited parasite infectivity.

Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response - PubMed

The dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum, which causes amyloodiniosis or 'marine velvet disease', is one of the most serious ectoparasitic diseases plaguing warmwater marine fish culture worldwide. We report that tomato clownfish Amphiprion frenatus develop strong immunity to Amyloodinium...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[MnFish1]

My post was deleted, even though I gave a valid analogy. I assume it offended someone, so I'll apologize to however it was .

If your post is deleted - they send you a message. If you didnt get a message it probably was a mistake when you clicked send

 

[MnFish1]

This may indeed be the case, but I’ve never seen any data with regard to that.

Here’s another possibility. Most aquariums are velvet free (unlike the ocean). Fish then either lose temporary immunity or never develop any. Therefore when a fish with velvet is added, in addition to the extreme high load of free swimmers in a small tank, we have massive casualties. In the ocean, constant low level infection may provide resistance.

Here’s an experiment that showed that antibody response to velvet could inhibited parasite infectivity.

Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response - PubMed

The dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum, which causes amyloodiniosis or 'marine velvet disease', is one of the most serious ectoparasitic diseases plaguing warmwater marine fish culture worldwide. We report that tomato clownfish Amphiprion frenatus develop strong immunity to Amyloodinium...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Its widely known and accepted that the danger of parasites in tanks - as compared to the wild is the much higher level of parasites that can multiply - and quickly overcome the fish' defenses. There is not even a doubt about it.

Its certainly true that immunity can lessen parasite severity. Thanks for the article - its been widely known for decades that this is active in Cryptokaryon, and assumed in Oodinium and other parasites. Its a matter of stocking density - and immunity. For example - if you take a fish - (healthy - non-immune) and put it in a 10 gallon tank with 1 cryptokaryon or one oodinium. The fish would likely be fine. If you took 9 healthy fish and 1 infected with oodinium- the likelihood of a wipe out would be hight

 

[MnFish1]

Why is it though that Marine Velvet isn’t a major problem in the worlds oceans? We do know it is endemic, it just doesn’t cause ocean wide massive loss of life. Where it is seen to cause massive losses, is in farm rearing and the aquarium trade. So something that is being done in those two areas are causing fish to be more susceptible. I think a primary hypothesis and an area we definitely need to understand better, has to be, how are fish immune systems effected by captivity. Additionally how are these pathogens and parasites also effected by these artificial systems, possibly making them more virulent.

Some aquarists may be doing things that tip the scale in their favor. So it may be that certain husbandry practices that we have yet to understand lead to why some people really need to be cautious and others seem to have no problems.

However, if it was as simple as you MUST QT or all your fish will be wiped out by velvet, well then we wouldn’t see the majority of hobbyists unaffected, even assuming amazing luck.

As a small data point, I happened to be waiting at the LFS and another customer started a conversation. He mentioned that even though he loves the store, he suggested I QT everything because he always loses 10% of fish from there, and he thinks they have pathogens in their system. I nodded my head because I wanted to be polite, but this is the same store where I have never once received a fish that died from a disease or caused a noticeable outbreak in my tank.

So what can we take from that? To me it means we have a single control; ie the source of the fish. Something either of us were doing besides where we get out fish, was leading to very different outcomes. If their systems contained velvet, or brook or ich... shouldn’t I be affected too?

I’m not suggesting voodoo as @MnFish1 calls it, but I understand that criticism. Lots of people jump to “I do this so it must work” when it could be some other thing altogether. Cause and effect are hard to disentangle. But there’s clearly plenty of evidence that knowledge is missing in this regard in our hobby.

One last thing. I’m a scientific person. I don’t tend to like anecdotal evidence alone, and I approach most things with skepticism. But when generating a new hypothesis, one of the best things to look at is actual scientific research in the fields of inquiry. In this case there is a lot of research about the animal immune system. Nothing, and I repeat nothing will save any fish from any pathogen without an immune system. Take away a fishes immune system, and a hundred different opportunistic bacteria, viruses, parasites in any one of our tanks will quickly end that fishes life.

Now - give an example of something that 'we' do that destroy's a fish' immune system. I know the standard dogma, copper, stress, etc. But - I was just curious as to what you were referring.

 

[Righteous]

Its widely known and accepted that the danger of parasites in tanks - as compared to the wild is the much higher level of parasites that can multiply - and quickly overcome the fish' defenses. There is not even a doubt about it.

That definitely sounds like good common sense. I just don’t know that there is any hard data or experiments that identify what level of parasite activity versus what level of immunity cause definite problems. Immunity is one of those things that’s basically impossible to measure for a hobbyist (anyone got lab grade equipment able to measure antibody levels?) Anecdotal evidence suggests some people are able to deal with some level of velvet. It’s just very unclear.

 

[Shooter6]

I think you can assume there is contamination from one end of the supply chain to the other. My best LFS runs copper in their tanks all the time.

I agree, the copper levels at the lfs are probably at suppression levels like one of the ones here.

I've started ordering fish direct from the collectors to shorten the contamination chances and run a strict qt protocol.

 

[Vyper]

I am still fairly new to the hobby. Only been doing it around a year and a half. I have paid up for quarantined fish to only get ich. I have bought from some of the best coral places to only bring home every hitchhiker possible. I have learned that it is hard to watch your favorite fish die due to a fish improperly quarantined. Unfortunately like so many things in life if you want it done right you have to learn to do it yourself. I am learning to quarantine and refuse to roll the dice anymore.
i have been curious how one would fair with only aquacultured fish straight from the source. Maybe avoid the stuff ever being introduced to our fish.

 

[Shooter6]

If your post is deleted - they send you a message. If you didnt get a message it probably was a mistake when you clicked send

Oh I got the message sent lol

 

[Righteous]

Now - give an example of something that 'we' do that destroy's a fish' immune system. I know the standard dogma, copper, stress, etc. But - I was just curious as to what you were referring.

I would say stress and copper yes definitely, and I wouldn’t necessarily refer to that as dogma. Both of those things have a lot of experiential data showing just how they effect immune system functioning.

In terms of other things we do, I would say the primary one is an environment that is artificial compared to the ocean. As much as we mimic things with live rock, etc, an entire biome is impossible to replicate. Fish have evolved for millennia in order to survive in the ocean. They may not always be adapted for captivity. In fact we know this in the hobby, since when breeding fish in captivity we often see evolutionary changes that take place that make them stronger survivors for captive systems.

Another aspect is diet. There’s also a ton of data that shows that diet is critical for immune function. That includes microbiomes that play a part in triggering / training / and also modulating immune function.

I’ll again refer anyone that is interest in this book on the immune system. It’s complexity is astounding. And again, when talking fish disease we MUST talk immune system if we eventually want to learn to deal with diseases, since it’s in the end, the only thing that cures disease. (Medicine only makes it easier for the immune system to function)

 

[Shooter6]

This may indeed be the case, but I’ve never seen any data with regard to that.

Here’s another possibility. Most aquariums are velvet free (unlike the ocean). Fish then either lose temporary immunity or never develop any. Therefore when a fish with velvet is added, in addition to the extreme high load of free swimmers in a small tank, we have massive casualties. In the ocean, constant low level infection may provide resistance.

Here’s an experiment that showed that antibody response to velvet could inhibited parasite infectivity.

Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response - PubMed

The dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum, which causes amyloodiniosis or 'marine velvet disease', is one of the most serious ectoparasitic diseases plaguing warmwater marine fish culture worldwide. We report that tomato clownfish Amphiprion frenatus develop strong immunity to Amyloodinium...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Again. I think the simple answer is the concentration of any parasite in an aquarium is going to be ridiculously higher then the ocean.
If a gallon of ocean water and a gallon of infected aquarium water were measured the aquarium will be massively higher in concentration of parasites.
No look at it in this regard, most people can survive 1-2 bee stings ( velvet parasites) if the same person was trapped in a room with thousands of angry bees they will likely die. Same with fish trapped in an aquarium.
Remember in the ocean a fish that is infected with a few parasites will shed them in a few days. ,in an aquarium they are continually getting reinfected by a continually growing number of parasites

 

[Righteous]

This all started with a question about why some yotubers don’t quarantine. I think as a community we need to practice more of this… saying “I don’t know”.

A lot of people (some making videos on the internet, or selling products) want to be seen as experts. So they tend to act like they have all the answers. The truth is, especially with regard to fish disease in the aquarium, we just don’t know everything.

So when making comments, I like to bring up more questions so that people can think about the things they themselves don’t know.

What’s not helpful is simply stating “this is the way”. Or “I had this happen, anyone who doesn’t do what I do is stupid”

Instead we need to keep sharing knowledge and keep questioning everything.

 

[Righteous]

Again. I think the simple answer is the concentration of any parasite in an aquarium is going to be ridiculously higher then the ocean.

I don’t think there are any simple answers. Unless someone has done the science I can’t be convinced. I do think it’s a valid point, but it’s just not “simple” nor does it lead to any obvious clear decision about QT process or not.

 

[Billldg]

I am curious as to why we are going down this rabbits whole. The saying to each their own comes to mind. I will never talk bad about people that don't QT...BUT!!! I will always QT my fish, or buy, from vendors that fully QT the fish. Its what I want to do for my fish. Some others feel that QT'ing fish is cruel and such. We all have our passion when fish come to mind, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it simply means we are passionate.

 

[Shooter6]

This all started with a question about why some yotubers don’t quarantine. I think as a community we need to practice more of this… saying “I don’t know”.

A lot of people (some making videos on the internet, or selling products) want to be seen as experts. So they tend to act like they have all the answers. The truth is, especially with regard to fish disease in the aquarium, we just don’t know everything.

So when making comments, I like to bring up more questions so that people can think about the things they themselves don’t know.

What’s not helpful is simply stating “this is the way”. Or “I had this happen, anyone who doesn’t do what I do is stupid”

Instead we need to keep sharing knowledge and keep questioning everything.

Simplest answer to the original question is a combination of laziness,ignorance, and lack of care!
This is answering why the youtube experts don't practice qt.

On a side note anyone getting frags from these type of reefers runs the risk of infecting their system if they don't qt the frags too.
Coral qt is the best choice as it gives you time to catch a whole host of parasites that could destroy your ecosystem.
You are the creator of your ecosystem, and should aim to make it as pure as possible. Once you introduce parasites you are no longer the creator, just the janitor...

 

[Shooter6]

I don’t think there are any simple answers. Unless someone has done the science I can’t be convinced. I do think it’s a valid point, but it’s just not “simple” nor does it lead to any obvious clear decision about QT process or not.

I'd say you don't want to be convinced to qt, as dilution is an extremely simple concept to understand. My bee example is an exact analysis that has the same outcome.

 

[Righteous]

@MnFish1 Another interesting issue, is that it’s not just about what we do to “destroy” an immune system, but can also be about properly modulating the immune system.

An immune system is like an army. And any army causes casualties. An animal with the strongest immune system will end up destroying its own body. So the immune system is a balanced system with things that modulate when and how it reacts.

Auto immunity, allergies, are things that happen when the immune system is too aggressive. Science is finding that often this happens when the immune system has not properly been trained, along with other genetic factors.

The science does show though that if you were to raise fish in a 100% sterile environment (this is I’m sure not really possible), almost certainly they would be worse off. So a question isn’t just what should we avoid to not destroy an immune system, but what should we do to encourage a stable and healthy immune system. And often the answer when you dig is to challenge the immune system even more.

 

[Shooter6]

I am curious as to why we are going down this rabbits whole. The saying to each their own comes to mind. I will never talk bad about people that don't QT...BUT!!! I will always QT my fish, or buy, from vendors that fully QT the fish. Its what I want to do for my fish. Some others feel that QT'ing fish is cruel and such. We all have our passion when fish come to mind, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it simply means we are passionate.

One is better for the life of the fish we keep. Maybe not better for the individual keeping them but for the living animal

 

[Righteous]

I'd say you don't want to be convinced to qt, as dilution is an extremely simple concept to understand. My bee example is an exact analysis that has the same outcome.

I would love to be convinced!! I am just not convinced by anecdote and analogy. The system is too complex, and with to many variables.

You may in fact be correct. But I’ll always be skeptical until I see solid research data and science.

I’d also ask what kind of QT should I be convinced of? Are we talking two display tanks, are we talking hospital tanks? Are we talking adding things with low or high stolevels? Are we talking expensive or sensitive fish? Clownfish with strong mucus coats? All these things play into the decisions.

Its why this hobby is hard. Trying to boil everything down to one simple answer just can’t cut it.

My method has been to focus on immune system and fish health rather than heavy QT procedures. That includes also inspecting fish health as best as possible prior to adding the fish. And also understanding the source of the fish, and how long they have lived at the LFS.

I wouldn’t tell any hobbyist that’s how they should do it. But I will share what I learn and I try and learn from others experiences as well and be open minded.