A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[fishybizzness]

You have got to be kidding! In the last few months, I have brought home two groups of damsels from two different LFS's recently only to have them die from velvet within three days in my QT tank! I lost half my fish in my freshwater tank due to ick and not doing quarantine. It has NOTHING to do with your established tank. If you want to play games with losing everything go to it!

I respectfully disagree. There are too many examples of successful non quarantine tanks that people are willing to share for it not to be a successful method. I truly believe that there are alot more non quarantine reef keepers on this and other forums that choose to not disclose their methods for fear of being insulted and ridiculed. I myself was on r2r asking for help when I started out. I was losing fish for no apparent reason and was at the point of quitting. My turnaround came after adding a quality uv to my system and feeding fresh, homemade foods. I have a Atlantic surgeon fish that was added after I changed methods over 4 years ago and though it shows a spot or 2 occasionally, they don't last for more than a day or 2. I also have a 2+ year old Atlantic blue tang that is as healthy as can be. These methods don't work for everyone but they do work for alot of people.

 

[Bugeater281]

Im in the middle on this subject. I have everything I need to qt fish including copper and a Hanna checker. And an extra tank large enough to house my fish if something did happen and the main tank needed to go fallow. Qting is a lot of work, and personal I don’t have the time to constantly be running and caring for a qt tank all the time. But if it’s needed, I make time. I originally lost a lot of fish to many issues. But I’m also better at inspecting fish and watching them eat before I take them home now
What I now do though, I recently bought a 2 spot tang. Tang looked super healthy, however there was definitely ick in the display tank he was in. He went straight to qt.
When I purchased my purple tang. He was alone in his tank. He looked super healthy. So I put him in my smaller system that has no fish(he’s was tiny) I watched him for four months with no signs of parasites, ick ect. He doubled in size. He was then moved to the display.
I just bought a filefish last night. He looked super healthy, was aquacultured. And what really surprised me, was the petco I got him at, had mollies in every tank. A saw zero ick or sign of parasites on any fish in that store. Yet the two spot tang who was also from petco(a different one), the tank looked like crap.

Personally, ick doesn’t scare me much, while velvet, internal parasites, Brooke, and flukes scare me more(and in that order).

 

[MnFish1]

I truly believe that there are alot more non quarantine reef keepers on this and other forums that choose to not disclose their methods for fear of being insulted and ridiculed.

Every survey taken on R2R suggests that people who follow a strict quarantine protocol with medication are way in the minority. So IMHO - there is no reason to think people are being insulted or ridiculed. IMHO some people who do not quarantine want to create a 'voodoo' type atmosphere that suggests that if you do xxx you do not need to QT. IMHO - most people are successful without QT, with flake food, live food, mud, a new tank, an old tank, dry rock, live rock, etc etc. One issue is that the people (and this happened ONCE to me) - who have bought a fish and put it into a thriving tank, have had all of their fish wiped out in a week. For me - I believe it was velvet. But - I also added a bunch of larger fish at one time (Moorish idols) - which broke my rule of a 'low stocking density'.

 

[Lasse]

I truly believe that an established reef tank with many corals everywhere can minimize the risk for parasite caused disease - if the parasite have a "free living stage" For corals - parasites are food as much as other small living things. As an example - in my tank I have three large clams - they filtrate a lot of water every day and their filtration is as good as a diatom filter - i´m not very worried about parasite attack that can develop into diseases.

My e-dna analyze shows that I have one bacterial fish pathogen in my aquarium - however - never have any observed disease in this aquarium.

But - IMO - it is very important not to let any new fish going directly into my DT - I always have then in my refugium for 2 - 3 weeks before introduction into the DT

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shooter6]

My post was deleted, even though I gave a valid analogy. I assume it offended someone, so I'll apologize to however it was .

 

[fishybizzness]

My post was deleted, even though I gave a valid analogy. I assume it offended someone, so I'll apologize to however it was .

I wish I had read it. I must've missed that one

 

[DrZoidburg]

It was monkey see monkey do for millions of years until one got smart. Just read all the horror stories on here it out weighs the few youtubers.

 

[Kal93]

I hedge towards purchasing quarantined fish, but that's because I lost all my fish to a joint ich/bacterial outbreak following the induction of a Typhoid Mary.

Can you have a healthy system without QT? Sure, with a mature system (filter feeders), UV, low stress, and a healthy diet. My copperband had lympho when I introduced him into my system, but it disappeared after a few weeks (this was 6 months ago). I shuck a fresh oyster for him every morning, which could be helping his health/immune system, or be circumstantial.

 

[WVNed]

Kind of tired of the resentment. I find it humorous that something I have been doing for more than 10 years is considered by many to be impossible. I never quarantined my freshwater fish either and I started with them in 1984.

Keep your fish anyway you want. That's what I am going to do.

 

[czoolander]

One word............. Velvet

I did not QT before velvet and it was fine and everything good for my first 10 additions. 11th addition a healthy looking powder brown tang not so healthy he had velvet and wiped out my entire tank within 24 hours.

Knowing what I do now I really do not understand why people do not QT all fish its really quite easy to do and will save you heartache down the road if you get unlucky on a fish.

Everyone is free to do what they want with their tanks of course but I put my vote in for QT

 

[Righteous]

One word............. Velvet

Why is it though that Marine Velvet isn’t a major problem in the worlds oceans? We do know it is endemic, it just doesn’t cause ocean wide massive loss of life. Where it is seen to cause massive losses, is in farm rearing and the aquarium trade. So something that is being done in those two areas are causing fish to be more susceptible. I think a primary hypothesis and an area we definitely need to understand better, has to be, how are fish immune systems effected by captivity. Additionally how are these pathogens and parasites also effected by these artificial systems, possibly making them more virulent.

Some aquarists may be doing things that tip the scale in their favor. So it may be that certain husbandry practices that we have yet to understand lead to why some people really need to be cautious and others seem to have no problems.

However, if it was as simple as you MUST QT or all your fish will be wiped out by velvet, well then we wouldn’t see the majority of hobbyists unaffected, even assuming amazing luck.

As a small data point, I happened to be waiting at the LFS and another customer started a conversation. He mentioned that even though he loves the store, he suggested I QT everything because he always loses 10% of fish from there, and he thinks they have pathogens in their system. I nodded my head because I wanted to be polite, but this is the same store where I have never once received a fish that died from a disease or caused a noticeable outbreak in my tank.

So what can we take from that? To me it means we have a single control; ie the source of the fish. Something either of us were doing besides where we get out fish, was leading to very different outcomes. If their systems contained velvet, or brook or ich... shouldn’t I be affected too?

I’m not suggesting voodoo as @MnFish1 calls it, but I understand that criticism. Lots of people jump to “I do this so it must work” when it could be some other thing altogether. Cause and effect are hard to disentangle. But there’s clearly plenty of evidence that knowledge is missing in this regard in our hobby.

One last thing. I’m a scientific person. I don’t tend to like anecdotal evidence alone, and I approach most things with skepticism. But when generating a new hypothesis, one of the best things to look at is actual scientific research in the fields of inquiry. In this case there is a lot of research about the animal immune system. Nothing, and I repeat nothing will save any fish from any pathogen without an immune system. Take away a fishes immune system, and a hundred different opportunistic bacteria, viruses, parasites in any one of our tanks will quickly end that fishes life.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

I respectfully disagree. There are too many examples of successful non quarantine tanks that people are willing to share for it not to be a successful method. I truly believe that there are alot more non quarantine reef keepers on this and other forums that choose to not disclose their methods for fear of being insulted and ridiculed. I myself was on r2r asking for help when I started out. I was losing fish for no apparent reason and was at the point of quitting. My turnaround came after adding a quality uv to my system and feeding fresh, homemade foods. I have a Atlantic surgeon fish that was added after I changed methods over 4 years ago and though it shows a spot or 2 occasionally, they don't last for more than a day or 2. I also have a 2+ year old Atlantic blue tang that is as healthy as can be. These methods don't work for everyone but they do work for alot of people.

So it is fine to add a fish with velvet to your main tank?

 

[Righteous]

So it is fine to add a fish with velvet to your main tank?

Maybe someone else can chime in about velvet, but I have definitely added a fish with Ich (powder blue tang) and had the fish get better and had no transmission to a tank full of fish.

Parasite load may have some impact too? I don’t know.

Edit: and come to think of it, my confidence to do this was from dealing with Ich in a freshwater tank years prior. I got about a half dozen tetras that all broke out with it shortly after getting them in the tank. Those also all survived and healed. My tank was heavily planted and the environment was perfect for tetras (low pH, lots of hiding places in plants, etc)

 

[Sebastiancrab]

I respectfully disagree. There are too many examples of successful non quarantine tanks that people are willing to share for it not to be a successful method. I truly believe that there are alot more non quarantine reef keepers on this and other forums that choose to not disclose their methods for fear of being insulted and ridiculed. I myself was on r2r asking for help when I started out. I was losing fish for no apparent reason and was at the point of quitting. My turnaround came after adding a quality uv to my system and feeding fresh, homemade foods. I have a Atlantic surgeon fish that was added after I changed methods over 4 years ago and though it shows a spot or 2 occasionally, they don't last for more than a day or 2. I also have a 2+ year old Atlantic blue tang that is as healthy as can be. These methods don't work for everyone but they do work for alot of people.

Unless you are doing lots of microscopic samples of your water and fish, I don't see how anyone can know with 100% certainty whether they have introduced or eliminated a bug when you have no resultant fish deaths or illness. I am not saying that others may not have had a success with not quarantining. But it is also likely they are lucky. Why would they be afraid to share something useful? That does not compute. I don't like treating my fish with medication prophylactically but have been leaning towards a wait and see approach in quarantine. After so many losses, I am thankful my tank has not been wiped out. My motto is better safe than sorry.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

Maybe someone else can chime in about velvet, but I have definitely added a fish with Ich (powder blue tang) and had the fish get better and had no transmission to a tank full of fish.

Parasite load may have some impact too? I don’t know.

Edit: and come to think of it, my confidence to do this was from dealing with Ich in a freshwater tank years prior. I got about a half dozen tetras that all broke out with it shortly after getting them in the tank. Those also all survived and healed. My tank was heavily planted and the environment was perfect for tetras (low pH, lots of hiding places in plants, etc)

Fish with strong immune systems can live with or fight off Ich. It can also live in their gills.

 

[Righteous]

I don't see how anyone can know with 100% certainty whether they have introduced or eliminated a bug when you have no resultant fish deaths or illness.

I don’t believe this to be true. Parasites like Ich, brook etc can successfully be identified without a microscope.

Fish with strong immune systems can live with or fight off Ich. It can also live in their gills.

I think that’s basically the point that’s being made. Strong immune systems are whats important. In fact they must clearly be able to fight off velvet in the ocean, since it’s endemic and yet not causing massive loss of life.

Again the issue is that all QT is not the same. A perfect setup would be two display tanks, one where fish are first kept with cheap fish in case some pathogen causes major problems. You could call that QT, but it would also probably mean a system where fish are healthier, are less stressed and have healthier immune systems. On the other end is a barren QT tank with a PVC elbow, and copper medicated water. In that tank, the QT may actually result in the fish succumbing to the parasite due to stress causing immune disfunction.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

I don’t believe this to be true. Parasites like Ich, brook etc can successfully be identified without a microscope.



I think that’s basically the point that’s being made. Strong immune systems are whats important. In fact they must clearly be able to fight off velvet in the ocean, since it’s endemic and yet not causing massive loss of life.

Again the issue is that all QT is not the same. A perfect setup would be two display tanks, one where fish are first kept with cheap fish in case some pathogen causes major problems. You could call that QT, but it would also probably mean a system where fish are healthier, are less stressed and have healthier immune systems. On the other end is a barren QT tank with a PVC elbow, and copper medicated water. In that tank, the QT may actually result in the fish succumbing to the parasite due to stress causing immune disfunction.

Yes, I know some diseases can be identified without a microscope. I was making a general statement about verifying things as they are put in your tank. A biologist would nail what is going on before a disease becomes apparent and double check it when it isn't seen. With my recent 2 damsels, one died less than a day after being brought home with no sign of velvet. The second one died two hours later and had just started to show the white spots around the ends of his fins. That is the only way I figured out what killed them.

Also, just like people, some fish are more susceptible to bugs than others due to age, general condition etc. Fish are so stressed from the transportation and not protected from disease, it is a wonder we are able to bring anything home alive.

 

[Righteous]

Yes, I know some diseases can be identified without a microscope. I was making a general statement about verifying things as they are put in your tank. A biologist would nail what is going on before a disease becomes apparent and double check it when it isn't seen. With my recent 2 damsels, one died less than a day after being brought home with no sign of velvet. The second one died two hours later and had just started to show the white spots around the ends of his fins. That is the only way I figured out what killed them.

Also, just like people, some fish are more susceptible to bugs than others due to age, general condition etc. Fish are so stressed from the transportation and not protected from disease, it is a wonder we are able to bring anything home alive.

Well again I think you’ve hit on the important point about stress. I just don’t think anyone has a simple answer to all this, and people have come to what works for them. We definitely need more knowledge in this area.

Here’s an example. My last two fish were a Spotted Mandarin and a Leopard Wrasse. Both fish appeared healthy. I ordered them both from Divers Den where I’ve had pretty good experiences with. Well the Spotted Mandarin was tiny! I thought he might be a goner due to a big crab catching him or something. He, however is doing great.

Not so great was the Leopard Wrasse. By the 3rd day he started to swim upside down and began acting erratically, and died shortly thereafter.

The cause? I’m almost certain it was a lack of sleep and stress. Unknown to me, Leopard Wrasse circadian rhythms are complex things. I noticed that he would go to bed under the sand at random times, coming out sometimes after lights out, not being out during the day during feeding etc, and it seemed pretty erratic. Well after consulting some experts here it seems that shipping them is super difficult. Being in a bag in the dark, and shipped across time zones really messes with them, hence why no one will insure the fish and they are always marked “expert only” (that really means no matter the expertise, they have a high death rate and we don’t want to pay for the loss) Apparently the only answer is to buy one from a local store where they have basically been the strong lucky ones and become acclimated to their new home, and had their circadian rhythms adjust. Basically your putting the cost and bad luck of them dying on the LFS. (whether such fish should even be in the hobby could also be debated)

In the case of the Leopard Wrasse, it’s perhaps possible to see the effects of stress in a more obvious manner. Other fish however, we may need to be a lot more sensitive with to realize what we are putting them through.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

With those two damsels, I learned never to pick up fish within days of their arrival at the store. Wait at least a week even if you have to prepay. That way, they have a chance to recover from the store delivery before they are stressed again. Make the LFS feed them before they are bagged!

 

[Shooter6]

Why is it though that Marine Velvet isn’t a major problem in the worlds oceans? We do know it is endemic, it just doesn’t cause ocean wide massive loss of life. Where it is seen to cause massive losses, is in farm rearing and the aquarium trade. So something that is being done in those two areas are causing fish to be more susceptible. I think a primary hypothesis and an area we definitely need to understand better, has to be, how are fish immune systems effected by captivity. Additionally how are these pathogens and parasites also effected by these artificial systems, possibly making them more virulent.

Some aquarists may be doing things that tip the scale in their favor. So it may be that certain husbandry practices that we have yet to understand lead to why some people really need to be cautious and others seem to have no problems.

However, if it was as simple as you MUST QT or all your fish will be wiped out by velvet, well then we wouldn’t see the majority of hobbyists unaffected, even assuming amazing luck.

As a small data point, I happened to be waiting at the LFS and another customer started a conversation. He mentioned that even though he loves the store, he suggested I QT everything because he always loses 10% of fish from there, and he thinks they have pathogens in their system. I nodded my head because I wanted to be polite, but this is the same store where I have never once received a fish that died from a disease or caused a noticeable outbreak in my tank.

So what can we take from that? To me it means we have a single control; ie the source of the fish. Something either of us were doing besides where we get out fish, was leading to very different outcomes. If their systems contained velvet, or brook or ich... shouldn’t I be affected too?

I’m not suggesting voodoo as @MnFish1 calls it, but I understand that criticism. Lots of people jump to “I do this so it must work” when it could be some other thing altogether. Cause and effect are hard to disentangle. But there’s clearly plenty of evidence that knowledge is missing in this regard in our hobby.

One last thing. I’m a scientific person. I don’t tend to like anecdotal evidence alone, and I approach most things with skepticism. But when generating a new hypothesis, one of the best things to look at is actual scientific research in the fields of inquiry. In this case there is a lot of research about the animal immune system. Nothing, and I repeat nothing will save any fish from any pathogen without an immune system. Take away a fishes immune system, and a hundred different opportunistic bacteria, viruses, parasites in any one of our tanks will quickly end that fishes life.

Dilution/ die off from failure to find host. Vs a box of water that the parasite can explode in.
2 cyst burst releasing 1million babies. 1 burst in the ocean, 1 in your aquarium. How many of those 1 million in the ocean will find a host, vs in your aquarium......