A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[brandon429]

Nice blend of ideal practices

 

[ScottB]

While I have been judicious in my sourcing, I have not run "proper" QT on fish for the last 11 years. I know my DT has ich at a "managed" level. The outbreaks come around every couple of years. I do lose about 10-15% of my fish population on average each year. Sometimes it is an old fish, sometimes a newer fish. Very hard to find any pattern.

My frag system has tons of fish but no obvious ich or fish fatalities aside from jumpers. There has been no concerted effort at "isolation" as fish and corals have moved back/forth repeatedly. Chemistry and nutrient levels are similar. The environmental differences really come down to the presence of rock, sand and relative flow. I do have a lot of rock in the frag sumps but none in the lit tanks. Flow is crazy high.

I find this difference in infection/mortality very intriguing.

 

[Reef and Dive]

It is not avoided because of the work. It is avoided to keep your fish healthy. OMG I have said that 500 times.

The LFSs in my town receive new fish every single week. Tons. Who buys? The same reefers.

Sorry, but the idea thay copper and medications are lesive and reduce fish health (over many years) doesn’t come any close to the massive amount of fish that die within weeks or months because of extremely simple parasites (crypto, brook etc)…

They don’t get any close to the opportunity of living the “promised long life”. And examples of success here and there IMHO do not justify the massive failures I see around here (and no doubt it does in many places) every single day.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I sat down tonight and tried to crunch some numbers:

Since 2015, I've quarantined on the order of 14,000 fish (granted 8k were cichlids). During this time, no epizootic metazoan or protozoan infections got through except in two cases:

1) A group of Curacao deep sea fish that I didn't quarantine because I was "afraid" it might stress them - lost $2k in fish before I got the Cryptocaryon under control. Luckily, I kept them in a closed system so there was no transfer to my main fish collection.

2) 7 adult bonnetheads and 2 spotted eagle rays - put them right into the DT because I didn't have space in any QT. Guess what fish later needed to be treated for gill flukes, losing two fish? Luckily, the flukes they had were species-specific so it didn't transfer to other fish in the system.

I've used a full quarantine process any time I'm mixing new fish with an existing population for the past 35 years. I find that it stops about 80% of the issues in the new fish themselves, and has fully protected existing populations during that time.

Some highlights -

No fish lost to Neobenedenia
No fish lost to medication use except fenbendazole, which I won't use any longer - no copper issues!
No instances of protozoans in our main marine system for the entire time

Jay

 

[Squidz]

I didn't.
Currently doing a copper treatment in a qt tank and lost 7 fish after introducing some neon gobies.
I probably will now. Too heartbreaking.

 

[Righteous]

Ultimately we're all left with anecdotes on both sides, and little hard data. For instance in my 20 years of aquarium experience, and no QT, I haven't experienced a single deadly disease outbreak even though I have never QT'd. But there's so many possible reasons that might be possible like where I buy my fish, to how I treat them, to pure blind luck. So, unless someone does a controlled experiment, no matter how many fish someone deals with, it's going to be comparing apples to oranges, and gut instincts. Someone would need to do an experiment where the same batch of fish are split between QT and not, all variables controlled, to tell if there's a significant difference... and importantly that experiment would need to be repeated many times over. I don't know of any such research that's been conducted.

Some of the variables that need controlling include:

species of fish
age of fish
collection method
physical health before acquisition
length of shipping
size of QT and DT systems
health of biological filter systems
other species in tank
live rock / vs none
age of tank
experience of aquarist
the list goes on....

At the moment I don't believe anyone can definitively say that one method is for certain superior to another. There are valid hypotheses on both sides. It's also possible that the overall difference is negligible, or comes down to what your goal is. Perhaps you've got lots of cheap fish in a DT, and you're choosing not to QT a very expensive fish... or maybe it's the other way around.

Anyway, I think if we all just keep posting our anecdotes (myself included) we're not going to get very far, because we've probably all seen the same thing on both sides, and heard the same stories. Instead we should agree that neither argument is crazy, has valid reasoning, and needs more analysis.

BTW, when we talk about the the fish disease forum, it's important to take note that this forum includes users from all experience levels, and also users aren't always forthcoming on what they've been doing in regards to husbandry practices... so I always take posts there with a grain of salt. (speaking of people admitting after pages and pages their tank wasn't even cycled, for instance)

 

[MnFish1]

Seems to me that trying to calculate fish disease incidence by seeing how many posts there are in the fish disease forum is an extremely poor method:
1) - people use different methods of 'QT'
2) - There is no comparison as to who used QT and who did not
3) - by definition there are going to be lots of posts there about 'fish disease' - I wouldn't expect someone would post pictures of their geraniums in the fish disease forum

 

[BanjoBandito]

PLOP n' DROP - YOLO.

Just kidding, but it's fun to yell and watch reefers clutch their pearls.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

I hope to convince at least some of you that the decision to not QT has nothing to do with dice or chance one day.

It has everything to do with how you establish your system from day one. It has everything to do with how you run it everyday.

You have got to be kidding! In the last few months, I have brought home two groups of damsels from two different LFS's recently only to have them die from velvet within three days in my QT tank! I lost half my fish in my freshwater tank due to ick and not doing quarantine. It has NOTHING to do with your established tank. If you want to play games with losing everything go to it!

 

[Paul B]

the fish disease forum needs work 24x7 for correcting non qt disease

I am sure this is totally true. The problem with this and all like threads is we can't pit quarantine against non quarantine. It is not that simple. For an example if you start a new tank with dead rock, and ASW, your fish will probably get sick. Even if I did that, they would get sick. Even if you quarantine them, they will most likely get sick either then or a few weeks later. They will get sick because fish in such a tank probably owned by a noob will be severely stressed. We can't read the expression on fish like we can on Angelina Jolie but I personally have been starring at fish for 70 years in tanks and in the sea so I know what fish are thinking.

When we (people with old healthy, immune tank systems) don't mean we take a fish from a store and throw it in any tank. The tank needs certain parameters and by that I don't mean chemical parameters.

I mean a tank with first of all some age on it. If the rocks are clean, white and barren, that is not a healthy tank (Yes I know MN you disagree)

If you SCUBA dive, and I have been diving for almost over 50 years and not like a tourist, you will see that fish like to do a few things. One is hide and when they hide, you can't see them as they are totally hidden and not in a white 1 1/4" PVC elbow from Home depot. They hide in a rough rock where they can barely fit so a moray eel doesn't slip in next to them. The fish does not know there are no moray eels in your tank and they don't want to see your kitchen, your cat or your annoying neighbor. They want to be totally enclosed.

Another thing a fish needs is the "correct" food. Just because it comes in a fancy bag with a picture of a whale shark on it doesn't make it the correct food. Fish in the sea don't eat that. They eat mostly whole fish with the guts and bones. They don't eat pellets, flakes or freeze dried.

I know I keep saying it but they need "living" gut bacteria and not just because you sneezed on it. This is very important and the main reason fish get sick. Like OMG it is not that hard.

When I see the tanks some people put fish in I am amazed the thing lives 2 days. We are killing the fish, even if we quarantine or offer up tea leaves to the moon.

Even Jay who I have an awful lot of respect for puts fish into a very large, "established" tank like the ocean. Those fish will not get sick no matter what he does although it is different in a small home tank.

I volunteer here at a public New York Aquarium who has one of the largest tanks in the US and the fish are never sick.

It is the tank, how it is decorated and the food along with bacteria, viruses and parasites that fish 100% need to be immune. Anything less and you need to quarantine.

Fish immune systems have no problem at all keeping fish totally healthy as long as we replicate their home as much as we can. Almost All sick fish were in a tank that was not natural with the food as I suggested.

So don't group me or anyone else with an immune tank with all the people with sick fish because they are not using the system that we are proposing.

Now I know 15 people will say, "well I feed worms and my tank is 2 years old and the fish died of uronoma, ick, gout etc".

2 years is one 5th the age of a common hermit crab and doesn't mean anything.
If you have to start a "new" tank, new water and new rock. Decorate it as I propose and quarantine. At least for a while because that tank is not going to be healthy
(I know MN)

Hey Paul B how do you add new fish into your system?
Do you every buy over the internet and have them shipped to you? how would you introduce them into your system?

I have only added one fish from the internet. A copperband about a year ago and he or she is fine.

You can see her here.


To add a fish to my system, I open the bag and put the fish into a small container. I test the water in the container for salinity and temp.

I pour some water from my tank into that container until those parameters are close. This normally takes about 15 minutes unless the thing is in almost fresh water which will take a little longer.

I keep that container covered so as not to stress the fish to much.
Then depending on the fish I will pick it up with my hand or a net and put it in my tank.

Then I will go out for linguine and clams knowing full well that fish will never get sick and neither will any of my other fish.

In a day or so that fish will start to eat and become part of the community.
Very Rarely, with in a week or so, that fish "may" disappear. Not from disease but who knows. Maybe the fish got a heart attack, maybe something bit it, maybe it had some affliction that didn't show up, maybe it ate a bad clam. Even people die without warning.

My own Dad dropped dead at 47 years old while he was standing talking to my Mom. He was a boxer and never sick.
Not every fish will live in a tank. But it is very rare for me to lose a fish. If it lives a week, it will most likely die of old age or jumping out.

 

[Jeffcb]

I am sure this is totally true. The problem with this and all like threads is we can't pit quarantine against non quarantine. It is not that simple. For an example if you start a new tank with dead rock, and ASW, your fish will probably get sick. Even if I did that, they would get sick. Even if you quarantine them, they will most likely get sick either then or a few weeks later. They will get sick because fish in such a tank probably owned by a noob will be severely stressed. We can't read the expression on fish like we can on Angelina Jolie but I personally have been starring at fish for 70 years in tanks and in the sea so I know what fish are thinking.

When we (people with old healthy, immune tank systems) don't mean we take a fish from a store and throw it in any tank. The tank needs certain parameters and by that I don't mean chemical parameters.

I mean a tank with first of all some age on it. If the rocks are clean, white and barren, that is not a healthy tank (Yes I know MN you disagree)

If you SCUBA dive, and I have been diving for almost over 50 years and not like a tourist, you will see that fish like to do a few things. One is hide and when they hide, you can't see them as they are totally hidden and not in a white 1 1/4" PVC elbow from Home depot. They hide in a rough rock where they can barely fit so a moray eel doesn't slip in next to them. The fish does not know there are no moray eels in your tank and they don't want to see your kitchen, your cat or your annoying neighbor. They want to be totally enclosed.

Another thing a fish needs is the "correct" food. Just because it comes in a fancy bag with a picture of a whale shark on it doesn't make it the correct food. Fish in the sea don't eat that. They eat mostly whole fish with the guts and bones. They don't eat pellets, flakes or freeze dried.

I know I keep saying it but they need "living" gut bacteria and not just because you sneezed on it. This is very important and the main reason fish get sick. Like OMG it is not that hard.

When I see the tanks some people put fish in I am amazed the thing lives 2 days. We are killing the fish, even if we quarantine or offer up tea leaves to the moon.

Even Jay who I have an awful lot of respect for puts fish into a very large, "established" tank like the ocean. Those fish will not get sick no matter what he does although it is different in a small home tank.

I volunteer here at a public New York Aquarium who has one of the largest tanks in the US and the fish are never sick.

It is the tank, how it is decorated and the food along with bacteria, viruses and parasites that fish 100% need to be immune. Anything less and you need to quarantine.

Fish immune systems have no problem at all keeping fish totally healthy as long as we replicate their home as much as we can. Almost All sick fish were in a tank that was not natural with the food as I suggested.

So don't group me or anyone else with an immune tank with all the people with sick fish because they are not using the system that we are proposing.

Now I know 15 people will say, "well I feed worms and my tank is 2 years old and the fish died of uronoma, ick, gout etc".

2 years is one 5th the age of a common hermit crab and doesn't mean anything.
If you have to start a "new" tank, new water and new rock. Decorate it as I propose and quarantine. At least for a while because that tank is not going to be healthy
(I know MN)



I have only added one fish from the internet. A copperband about a year ago and he or she is fine.

You can see her here.


To add a fish to my system, I open the bag and put the fish into a small container. I test the water in the container for salinity and temp.

I pour some water from my tank into that container until those parameters are close. This normally takes about 15 minutes unless the thing is in almost fresh water which will take a little longer.

I keep that container covered so as not to stress the fish to much.
Then depending on the fish I will pick it up with my hand or a net and put it in my tank.

Then I will go out for linguine and clams knowing full well that fish will never get sick and neither will any of my other fish.

In a day or so that fish will start to eat and become part of the community.
Very Rarely, with in a week or so, that fish "may" disappear. Not from disease but who knows. Maybe the fish got a heart attack, maybe something bit it, maybe it had some affliction that didn't show up, maybe it ate a bad clam. Even people die without warning.

My own Dad dropped dead at 47 years old while he was standing talking to my Mom. He was a boxer and never sick.
Not every fish will live in a tank. But it is very rare for me to lose a fish. If it lives a week, it will most likely die of old age or jumping out.

I love linguine and clams. Sounds like your doing it right.

 

[Paul B]

I am making it tonight with a home made loaf of bread.

 

[WVNed]

You have got to be kidding! In the last few months, I have brought home two groups of damsels from two different LFS's recently only to have them die from velvet within three days in my QT tank! I lost half my fish in my freshwater tank due to ick and not doing quarantine. It has NOTHING to do with your established tank. If you want to play games with losing everything go to it!

No, I am not kidding

At all

A freshwater tank? Like this one that has had 300 feeder guppies for the lions dropped into it multiple times.

Actually I am a warlock and have used strong magic on my tanks so I can do things no one else can do.
Don't even try.

 

[Paul B]

Here is a perfect example. I just pulled this from another thread on this forum and it was just posted. This unfortunate new reefer is having dead fish problems and I do feel bad for him (or her).

Quote:
I completed the cycle about a week ago (took me 4 weeks and a half). Dosed 2ppm ammonia and all levels go to zero in less than 24 hours (except nitrates). I have a RO/DI system which I used to do a few water changes to drop nitrate levels before adding fish. Last week I added one clownfish first (acclimated the fish). It started gasping for air and then stayed at the bottom until it died (died within hours). Checked parameters and everything zero. Thought maybe fish was sick. Next day went to another lfs and they advised me to get 2 clownfish claiming that they don't like being alone. Got home acclimated for about 2 hours, added fish and both died again. One looked OK for about 3 hours swimming normally but then started to swim on the sand like scratching himself and got lethargic and stayed on the sand until it died. The other one died first. That one was gasping for air at the top and started losing strength until it died. Tested parameters and everything zero (alkalinity 1.022). I waited one week, adding 2 ppm ammonia every 2 days to make sure that the bacteria had something to eat. Again, all parameters down to zero in less than 24 hours. I bought a chlorine test which arrived this week.
End quote.

This tank is a month old. The owner dosed ammonia a couple of times. Ammonia in a tank with almost no bacteria is going to stay as ammonia no matter what the test kit reads. Even if I did this I would lose the fish.
We, for some reason read these forums and believe everything literally and do as someone posted and lose our fish.
Then we can blame not quarantining.

This particular situation is what I was talking about. A brand new tank. That tank has no bacteria even though according to test kits it is cycled. Cycled only means the tank has the capacity to process that dead shrimp or whatever was added to cycle the thing. Adding ammonia to such a tank will almost guarantee you will kill your fish.

His LFS is also very eager for him to buy more fish which of course will die.
I think we need a Health forum where people with immune tanks and never a disease issue can try to teach their methods without an arguement on quarantine.

Me and anyone with healthy fish could have told this poor guy those fish would have died and it bothers me that we let people do these things from lack of proper methods that could prevent such things from happening.

 

[Righteous]

I still think perhaps as @Paul B would be indicating, it’s not so much about QT’ing or not. There are situations like a brand new sparkly tank, sensitive fish from bad sources, etc where QT’ing performs a critical role.

But ultimately, we are talking about disease. And if we talk about disease, we MUST talk about the immune system. No medicine can save a fish from a virus, we don’t have anti-virals for fish. And even if we do treat fish with medicine, 95% of the work of healing that fish comes down to its immune system.

So perhaps where the disagreements come from is what is the first and foremost important aspect we should be paying attention to. Is it QT process, or health of fish, and lack of stress process. Like many things it can be a balance.

But we do hear a lot more about QT in this hobby and almost nothing about supporting a healthy immune system, and that probably gives new aquarists the wrong idea.

The fish does not know there are no moray eels in your tank and they don't want to see your kitchen, your cat or your annoying neighbor. They want to be totally enclosed.

This is so important. Almost every single fish I have added darts immediately for a hidden crevice and is invisible for usually at least an hour (except clowns, they’re pretty dumb, but really probably reliant on anemones for safety have a lessened stress response). That should tell us something about the needs of a fish in a new tank. You’ll also notice that a community of peaceful fish will acclimate a fish quicker, most likely due to signaling the tank is a safe space without predators.

One fish I lost was a foxface that I added even though it was very thin when I received it. The mistake I made was adding it first by itself (this was a tank reboot after a move, established live rock). Anyone with a foxface nows they camouflage rapidly when stressed. Well this poor foxface camouflaged and stayed hidden in the rocks for about 2 days, coming out to eat infrequently. He died 3 days later (no indication of any parasite).

Maybe the Rambo of foxface would have been fine. Fish have personalities, some, like us, are more easily stressed.

Anyway, I still think we need to all put more attention to our fish and what they are telling us. I take Dr Temple Grandin as an excellent resource on this, who’s published research in animal handling as it relates to stress and health, and who has significantly changed animal handling of livestock.

One final note. Imagine that immediately after birth, we quarantined our babies, fed them only formula, and gave them antibiotics. It’s sounds ludicrous, but that is sometimes the approach people take with fish. (Even with preterm infants, who’s immune systems are not ready yet, there’s a focus on parental attachment and breast milk for health. With full term infants, it’s well noted that infants blood sugar and body temperature regulates very quickly when placed on a parents chest after birth, a probable stress reducing response)

QT and and medicine are tools, and they are useful. But they need to be used properly and for the right purposes, and REQUIRE the proper attention to the fishes overall health and happiness first and foremost.

 

[MnFish1]

I mean a tank with first of all some age on it. If the rocks are clean, white and barren, that is not a healthy tank (Yes I know MN you disagree)

I have never recommended anyone keep a barren tank with white rocks, in fact, I have said - numerous times that the best way to keep corals is to try NOT to put 5 small frags in a 100 gallon tank and expect they will grow. The best way to avoid having 'the uglies' - is to put established live rock on top of less expensive base rock.

I'm not sure where you get the ideas about what 'MN' thinks, but you keep stating my 'opinions' - when in fact they are nearly the opposite.

I have never had a QT tank. I have no medications on hand - I have not needed them. I would rarely if ever use copper because I think in the end it shortens lives rather than improves lives (over the long-term).

My only disagreement with you has been the 'logic' of what you are saying as to the reason your tank is doing well. I have never said your tank wasn't doing well, that you have been lying, or any of the other straw-man arguments you bring up.

I can see reasons where just the under-gravel filter could help prevent CI, for 1. For 2, I can also see where having more 'things' in the tank may help with parasite loads (as there are also less 'sites' for them to attach (i.e. I do not believe CI attaches to GSP as well as it attaches to dry rock, for example.

So - maybe you'll do me a favor - and not write what 'I think'.

I will repeat another point which I feel strongly about. People here use words like 'cycled' and 'QT' without spelling out their definition of those terms. Then anyone that uses those words is lumped in with others who may have totally different protocols and meaning. IMHO - this is the reason for most of the back and forth arguments on this site - which never end.

 

[MnFish1]

Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not? A lot of “famous” people on youtube like reef dork, inappropriate reefer, and fish of hex dont quarantine their fish and they have proof of how successful their reef tanks are.

To get back to the OP - This is a typical quote around R2R. QT - what does that mean?
1) Observing the fish outside the DT for 1-4 months?
2) Observing the fish at the fish store for a time to be sure its as healthy as it can be?
3). Putting the fish in a QT tank with prophylactic dip?
4). Putting the fish in QT with a dip, copper and prazipro?
5). Some other variation.

So when we debate 'QT' seems like we shoudl be making sure we're talking about the same thing. More than 60-70 percent of people do not 'QT', and more than that do not use prophylactic medication, if they do some form of observation. So - it seems to be the 'rule' that people here do not QT (at all).

How can it be that there is so much variation in success?

1. Where did you get your fish?
2. Were they healthy?
3. What is your stocking density? If you put 1 clownfish in a 100 gallon tank - it is going to be highly unlikely that they will generate enough 'CI' - to cause a problem. The fish will likely become immune, etc
4. Do you get your fish from 1 source or 10?

IMHO, if you get your fish from a reputable source, they are healthy at the time, they have not just been shipped in from a 2 day air flight from Malaysia, and you're using a reasonable stocking density - most people will be successful - QT or not.

I personally do not care what anyone does or doesn't do. Aside from what I do - it seems to me that the most 'science' relates to the importance of SOME biosecurity protocol - and following that protocol religiously. And - if you don't 'QT' - be prepared to treat with medication.

My reading of multiple posts on the 'fish disease forum' usually start with 'I usually QT', but I got a fish from a friend - and just dropped it in. Or I saw a fish I just had to have - it did't look healthy - but I bought it - thinking I could save it. I had a tank with sick fish - 'what shoudl I do' - followed by multiple answers - that the OP doesn't follow. This is usually followed by 'well all the fish died'.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[MnFish1]

It has NOTHING to do with your established tank. If you want to play games with losing everything go to it!

I believe that what you're saying makes sense (at least part of it) - I am not a big fan of the idea that an 'established' tank means much (if anything) - unless one is using @Lasse's method. An established tank may have (or not) some items from the fish's natural environment. The varieties of fish may or may not have anything to do with the fish's natural environment. Ditto for bacteria, types of algae, currents, lighting, etc. I personally do not believe that the length of time correlating with success in this hobby has anything to do with diversity in the tank - but more likely the 'experience' of the tank owner.

 

[Righteous]

So when we debate 'QT' seems like we shoudl be making sure we're talking about the same thing.

it seems to me that the most 'science' relates to the importance of SOME biosecurity protocol

I agree and think these are important and easily glossed over points. For some reason in this hobby, QT of new fish additions became synonymous with barren hospital tank where multiple prophylactic medications get used, and I think that’s a bulk of the confusion for new aquarists.

As for bio security, I would say the need or lack thereof is related to a ton of variables, like age of tank (agree with Mn above comment though), biodiversity, health of specimens, experience of aquarists, size of systems etc etc. Quarantine can definitely prevent the spread of parasites and pathogens. But is that always the end goal? A point @Paul B makes is that introducing those pathogens purposefully can have a positive effect (think inoculation or vaccination). It is debatable however how risky that is and it’s success depends so much on a very many factors. One size just doesn’t fit all.

And for what it’s worth, it feels like @MnFish1 and @Paul B arent really all that far off from each other… but a lost gets lots in communication sometimes.

 

[Forty-Two]

Regardless of the merits of the approaches discussed - I can say that it’s a very informative thread. Thanks for sharing your experiences