A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

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Paul B

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Brandon my Buddy. I have to disagree with your disagreement. Humblefish is a friend of mine. I spoke to him yesterday and I have great respect for his fish curing ability. But Humblefish also does not own an old quarantined tank and as we have found out, neither does anyone else.

He will also inherit my tank when I croak as long as he runs it as I do. :rolleyes:

The oldest, healthy tanks were never quarantined or drugged so quarantining is arguably not the best way. It could be but being there are no old, healthy such tanks, we can't tell. :)

New tanks, Yes, quarantine. But when you learn how to keep fish healthy on their own, which will take a few years, do that as healthy fish have no problems with disease.

I know I am not supposed to mention my tank but no scientific study lasts for 50 years and if it did, and the experiment was successful, I think the scientists would condone that method even if they didn't understand or agree with it. ;)
 
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Durhamreefer

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I bought my first clownfish 25 years ago and still have it. I have never quarantined a fish. Might be just luck. Do what you feel is necessary.
And I thought my almost 14 yo (still breeding) pair were nearing retirement. I'm going to have to start considering an addendum to my Will...
 

Paul B

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Either way there is still no guarantee that your fish will never get some sort of disease if its QT or not..
This is of course true. But if my tank got ich tomorrow and crashed I would still call it am success as no tank quarantined or not ever reached that.

So how long does a tank have to run disease free to be called successful. I always said it will take fifty years so now I am done no matter what happens to my tank. :)
 

Paul B

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And I thought my almost 14 yo (still breeding)
This guy is also still spawning and is about 30 :)

"Soon" I will call this fish and his mate a success but I have heard of some of them living to 40 years old so he is close. In a couple more years I will call that a success. :cool:

 

Hot2na

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" Neobenedenia flukes are best controlled by hyposalinity."...yay ...we finally got the lights to come on....that's why my protocol is 1.009 for 10 days and 3 days of fenbednazole...not 72 days of drugs
 
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ying yang

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Maybe there should be a "Health" forum where healthy fish and tanks are. Where people can learn ways to keep fish healthy without resorting to un natural, complicated methods. Where the fish never get sick and just live out their life without any mention of disease or discomfort. Where the fish die of old age and maybe spawn along the way.

The foods that successful non disease tanks eat along with the methods used such as aquascaping form health and maybe non chemical water conditioners such as algae scrubbers, skimmers etc.

In new to saltwater and reading/ researching over last 5 years i have come to decision most saltwater fish will be diesesed so all fish need qt/ medication ( maybe from all the stock in tanks at wholsalers and all the shipping/ moving in bags/ stress etc then i change my mind and think yeah fish get stressed and get ill just like we do as humans but we can improve our health if stress goes down and in right environment so i often get confused what correct course of action should be but decided on observation tank but first 2 clownfish had what i think flukes,and didnt put blennie or wrasse in observation and they flashing on rocks occasionally and wrasse had slight red mark on body but maybe from diving under sand near rock rubble or maybe start of uronema idk.
But if there was a section of this forum on how to do " natural" things to keep fish healthy i would be interested in this.
As i say im new here,maybe there lots threads already on this so if there is then i will find as time goes on.
All i know for certain is that " to qt or not to qt and what qt means for us all is hot topic " ha ha

Edit: top 2 sentences from paul b,i tried to do quote but delete most of what he said at start out.um not good with tech so failed lol
 

Bars

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Most people 'on here' do not quarantine - based on several polls. Some people are zealous in their defense of QT and some are zealous in their defense of not QT'ing. Very few people define 'what QT means' - i.e. with observation only, observation and treat for disease, prophylactic treatment, etc. Then there is the 'duration question' - 1 week 2 weeks 4 weeks - etc.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not active enough to really know what the main consensus is here. My statement was purely based on the occasional disease/what's wrong with my fish thread where people made it seem like the OP was throwing kittens in a river by not QT'ing.
 

WVNed

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Any science that describes outliers that don't fit in the current operating theories as luck is pretty pitiful in my opinion.

It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier. It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg. Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed. Same thing happens in home aquariums.

When I have more time, I’m going to run some data analysis on fish diseases posts here: quarantined versus not, and compare outcomes...I did a quick look last fall and I think the results are going to be profound.

As I said, quarantine isn’t a panacea, but if you are buying standard pet store fish, it is always going to be less riskier than not quarantining.

Proactive quarantine won’t resolve handling issues (cyanide, etc) Uronema, internal bacterial issues like Mycobacterium, or Mycosporidians, but it does resolve the majority of external protozoan and metazoan issues that have the greatest risk of creating an epizootic in the displays.

Jay
So what are my odds now at say 1000-2000 additions counting all rocks, inverts, macros, and fish? I am not counting the number of times but the number specimens added. I buy feeder shrimp and add them 200-300 at a time. I have added clean up crew animals 100 at a time several times.
Not only they but the water they came in went into the tank.
 

stanleo

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I think a healthy fish with a healthy immune system can fight off any disease or parasite that is in a tank. I think quarantining fish puts more stress on the fish and stress leads to a weakened immune system. Think about the journey they have already had before you bought them. They were taken out of their natural habitat, shipped sometimes 1000s of miles by truck or plane in too crowded and cramped containers. Sometimes kept in multiple locations before they end up in a small display tank at the LFS you bought them from. And after all that, we should bring them home, put them in yet another tank that is too small for them, and sterile, medicate them and bother them daily for weeks and then finally put them in their forever home? A tank that for 99% of fish owners is still too small for an animal that used to have the whole ocean to play in. I know if I went through all that, I would be pretty sickly too. A fish's best chance IMO is to be put straight into your DT that hopefully has a stable environment and left alone.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Any science that describes outliers that don't fit in the current operating theories as luck is pretty pitiful in my opinion.


So what are my odds now at say 1000-2000 additions counting all rocks, inverts, macros, and fish? I am not counting the number of times but the number specimens added. I buy feeder shrimp and add them 200-300 at a time. I have added clean up crew animals 100 at a time several times.
Not only they but the water they came in went into the tank.
Thanks for the input. I'm going to drop off this thread now - I need to focus on the acute health issues that are cropping up here.

Jay
 
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WVNed

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It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier. It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg. Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed. Same thing happens in home aquariums.
It appears to me that you or a friend have done a statistical analysis on the number of additions vs disease prevalence.

I was simply wondering the number where it approaches 100%
 

MnFish1

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I once had a few long chats with a hospital infectious disease specialist. I met him because my father caught a nosocomial infection that was very hard to treat while having his hip replaced. We talked about other things like how my co workers children kept getting MERSA.

While I found his points a view interesting and informative they did not change how my family went about our daily lives.

I find the same level of common sense I use with my family members and our other pets applies to my aquariums.
Well - that infectious disease specialist should have told you that MRSA in certain cities of the country (and most of the state of Michigan was endemic 30 years ago. Kids get staph infections. MRSA is basically the same 'bacteria' as staph aureus, its just resistant to penicillin -type drugs. So - if a doctor sees a skin infection and treats it with a usual drug, its not going to work if its MRSA -thus MRSA infections 'appear' to be worse. In fact - people do not develop immunity to staph - for the most part - staph lives on everyone's skin all day long - whether its MRSA or non MRSA. "As a result, the body does not develop long-term immunity and remains vulnerable to that particular staph infection throughout life."

There is no way you can 'prevent' staph from colonizing your skin - so you made the right decision to keep living your normal life
 

MnFish1

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This is of course true. But if my tank got ich tomorrow and crashed I would still call it am success as no tank quarantined or not ever reached that.
I disagree. It means that your method doesnt work. You have not had every inhabitant of your tank for 50 years.
 

WVNed

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It's okay. I am going to keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Those aren't even fish over there swimming around. They are little robots made in China I found on eBay.

I take them all out of the tank and recharge them every night.
 

Squidward

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Either way there is still no guarantee that your fish will never get some sort of disease if its QT or not.. you could follow it to the T and BANG!! fish gets ich or something else.. or it may never get anything, much the same if you dont opt to QT a fish. Nothing is ever a garentee
My tank's been running since 2019 with 30+ fish. No disease outbreak. So I can say proper qurantine can work.
 
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pseudorand

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notice who does all the work there, and who never does. Go read fifteen pages in, see who never does work there and who does

I certainly don't mean to disparage or discount Mr. Hendal's excellent work and support of our community on this form. I simply suspect that a proper QT procedure may be more complicated and/or require more practice than the average hobbyists (or at least me) is capable/willing to do. My personal best effort and good intentions to follow all the QT rules here and elsewhere on the internet have not resulted I good returns, and I wonder if there's not some third option that could better maximize fish survival.
 

Squidward

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I certainly don't mean to disparage or discount Mr. Hendal's excellent work and support of our community on this form. I simply suspect that a proper QT procedure may be more complicated and/or require more practice than the average hobbyists (or at least me) is capable/willing to do. My personal best effort and good intentions to follow all the QT rules here and elsewhere on the internet have not resulted I good returns, and I wonder if there's not some third option that could better maximize fish survival.
You could do TTM with prazipro. It takes 12 days. Pretty simple after a few tries. That's all I did for a successful ich-free tank. No need to measure copper.
 
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