A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[moretor1]

Doesn't seneye automatically calibrate itself with their little nh3 and ph slide?

https://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye_Products/seneye_slide_NH3_pH

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

I think seneye has dealt a fatal blow to these made up stories, to be honest. I don't think Brandon will accept even Seneye results now if calibrated correctly;

Analyzing Hanna Ammonia checker Hi784, chemistry and performance

Which Hach version you thinking of? You only need two if it's freshwater. One version, Hach hides some reagents in the cap. What does seawater need? Citrate? Hach ammonia salicylate sodium salicylate 54-21-7 40-50% sodium nitroferricynade 14402-89-2

www.reef2reef.com

If it's not calibrated to a known definitive amount such as calibration flood set at a specific number and such, and you are adjusting calibration based on your own numbers, then it will not be accurate or usable. Especially if your calibrating it based on the numbers it's incorrectly calibrated on.

I have salt water that I mixed and weighed at to be 1.025. but not verified by other means. I now adjust the refractometer to what should be 1.025 based on the water I just made. This will definitely cause issues and be uncontrolled now. Results aren't accurate.

Now if I have calibration fluid, I can test to verify first then check the salt water and adjust future salt mix measurements. Even then could be slight variations in mix but will be able to tell. Now if you have other tests that can verify you can adjust based on those. But only if those are calibrated as well.

Everything needs a definitive base line to calculator or verify accuracy. You can make your own but if you are adjusting to your own parameters and not to actual parameters it is a false reading as you don't know how far off things really are.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I feel like a lot of the hate this thread recieves is due to the whole "skip" part.

There is no hate or issue with choice of words. Most of us have just reached a tipping point with Brandon’s claims, cooption of science and obfuscation when confronted with fact.

As for Seneye calibration - Brandon feels any positive ammonia reading is an error and therefore has user “calibrate” by adjusting trim to make that reading zero. See thread attached above.

I am going to assume by your comments that you are not really aware of Brandon’s position on many things.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Doesn't seneye automatically calibrate itself with their little nh3 and ph slide?

https://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye_Products/seneye_slide_NH3_pH

I was reading just now that the slides are calibration itself but, if you don't have a source to test if the slides are doing so correctly, then it still may not be accurate. Read where some people's slides had issues and this was an issue. But again, I know little about seneye itself and learning it just now. Lol. So take it with a grain of salt.

 

[moretor1]

If it's not calibrated to a known definitive amount such as calibration flood set at a specific number and such, and you are adjusting calibration based on your own numbers, then it will not be accurate or usable. Especially if your calibrating it based on the numbers it's incorrectly calibrated on.

I have salt water that I mixed and weighed at to be 1.025. but not verified by other means. I now adjust the refractometer to what should be 1.025 based on the water I just made. This will definitely cause issues and be uncontrolled now. Results aren't accurate.

Now if I have calibration fluid, I can test to verify first then check the salt water and adjust future salt mix measurements. Even then could be slight variations in mix but will be able to tell. Now if you have other tests that can verify you can adjust based on those. But only if those are calibrated as well.

Everything needs a definitive base line to calculator or verify accuracy. You can make your own but if you are adjusting to your own parameters and not to actual parameters it is a false reading as you don't know how far off things really are.

Not really related but randy does have a good article on diy calibration fluid,

that said I would make sure your scale for measuring salt is calibrated

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Not really related but randy does have a good article on diy calibration fluid,

that said I would make sure your scale for measuring salt is calibrated

Why I buy calibration fluid lol. I made the mistake of buying premade salt without testing in my other pico. Needless to say it was all freshwater. I now test before adding to make sure lol. Was not a fun experience.

 

[Lasse]

If it's not calibrated to a known definitive amount such as calibration flood set at a specific number and such, and you are adjusting calibration based on your own numbers, then it will not be accurate or usable. Especially if your calibrating it based on the numbers it's incorrectly calibrated on.

I have salt water that I mixed and weighed at to be 1.025. but not verified by other means. I now adjust the refractometer to what should be 1.025 based on the water I just made. This will definitely cause issues and be uncontrolled now. Results aren't accurate.

Now if I have calibration fluid, I can test to verify first then check the salt water and adjust future salt mix measurements. Even then could be slight variations in mix but will be able to tell. Now if you have other tests that can verify you can adjust based on those. But only if those are calibrated as well.

Everything needs a definitive base line to calculator or verify accuracy. You can make your own but if you are adjusting to your own parameters and not to actual parameters it is a false reading as you don't know how far off things really are.

I was reading just now that the slides are calibration itself but, if you don't have a source to test if the slides are doing so correctly, then it still may not be accurate. Read where some people's slides had issues and this was an issue. But again, I know little about seneye itself and learning it just now. Lol. So take it with a grain of salt.

FYI

Calibrating The Seneye Free Ammonia Sensor

I am currently engaged in a project with @taricha that needed free ammonia measurements. The Seneye device seemed like a good low cost option. What I want to share is the calibration data. The Seneye ammonia sensor uses a gas permeable film that is embedded with a pH indicating dye. When free...

www.reef2reef.com

'
Sincerely Lasse

 

[moretor1]

Why I buy calibration fluid lol. I made the mistake of buying premade salt without testing in my other pico. Needless to say it was all freshwater. I now test before adding to make sure lol. Was not a fun experience.

Yeah I need to make some calibration fluid myself but I have 0 clue where my jewelry scale has gone

I typically end up calibrating my refractometer with rodi ever so lightly on the high end of 0

Also is it just me or is RO water ever so slightly salty?
My only real experience drinking it was when we had a vacation home in New Port richey

 

[moretor1]

Has anyone thought of reaching out to seneye about how they calibrate their slides?
If their claim is that their slides eliminate the need for calibration in their systems then I would imagine they are calibrating with much more precise (and expensive) equipment than any of us are using

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

FYI

Calibrating The Seneye Free Ammonia Sensor

I am currently engaged in a project with @taricha that needed free ammonia measurements. The Seneye device seemed like a good low cost option. What I want to share is the calibration data. The Seneye ammonia sensor uses a gas permeable film that is embedded with a pH indicating dye. When free...

www.reef2reef.com

'
Sincerely Lasse

Ok so the slides are technically pre calibrated and correct then? So should be good straight out of the box correct? No adjustments needed?

 

[MnFish1]

If it's not calibrated to a known definitive amount such as calibration flood set at a specific number and such, and you are adjusting calibration based on your own numbers, then it will not be accurate or usable. Especially if your calibrating it based on the numbers it's incorrectly calibrated on.

I have salt water that I mixed and weighed at to be 1.025. but not verified by other means. I now adjust the refractometer to what should be 1.025 based on the water I just made. This will definitely cause issues and be uncontrolled now. Results aren't accurate.

Now if I have calibration fluid, I can test to verify first then check the salt water and adjust future salt mix measurements. Even then could be slight variations in mix but will be able to tell. Now if you have other tests that can verify you can adjust based on those. But only if those are calibrated as well.

Everything needs a definitive base line to calculator or verify accuracy. You can make your own but if you are adjusting to your own parameters and not to actual parameters it is a false reading as you don't know how far off things really are.

This is a bit off topic - but it's not a great idea to do what you're doing. Instead, you buy for a very small amount of money - a calibration solution for your refractometer. IF you made an error weighing, etc when you made your own standard, you could have a major problem

 

[Lasse]

Ok so the slides are technically pre calibrated and correct then? So should be good straight out of the box correct? No adjustments needed?

No that thread say the total opposite - they are not correct direct from the box. His experiment show that it only show around 28 % of the real concentration.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can cross a street without looking both ways, but why would you?

 

[MnFish1]

There is still a myth out there with some where pulling live rock out to another tank means you still need to see the colors on a chart or test for it to be ready. In a sense skipping the cycle is meaning you don't have to wait for the bacteria to populate as it has already been previously achieved. I believe this is more else Brandon's point. With skip cycling. Not talking about using dry rock but using pre established live rock in a new system.

There is no myth out there. IMHO. It is totally possible (though unlikely as already mentioned multiple times) - for errors to happen after transferring an old tank to a new tank - which results in ammonia, etc issues. Thus, even though it's 'rare', it's prudent when one has a 200 gallon tank with 20,000+ dollars of coral, etc. to monitor chemistry for a couple days afterwards (along the lines of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure). If you want to take it to extremes, in reality - those that are testing alkalinity, Ca, PO4 Nitrate more than 2-3 times/week are probably most often getting 'normal' results and are wasting their time and money. But - they know if their corals are using more alkalinity, and Ca etc. Skip cycling a large tank involves several steps - its sometimes difficult to do it as fast as one would like to - meaning its possible that things to change/die/etc. Again - most people with large tanks probably have the experience to do it without any issue. It is impossible for anyone to state with 100% certainty (IMHO) - that there will not be a problem with a given tank change, i.e. skip cycle. Thus - testing for ammonia, etc after a skip cycle in a larger system would be stupid NOT to do - given the potential risks.

I believe there are also work threads out there talking about tanks that have had problems with this method - mostly when moving old sand with the rock to the new tank.

By the way - I think I read you writing something along the lines of if you increase the bioload in a tank the bacteria on the rocks will rapidly increase and there will be no ammonia issue (if you didn't I apologize). In reality - if you markedly the bioload (lets say you have 3 tangs in a 50 gallon and you add 5 more), You may very well have an ammonia issue. Likewise - if you're doing a skip cycle - lets say a 20 gallon to a 100 gallon tank, and add only your old rock into the new tank, but multiply the bioload by 3, its entirely possible that your rock may take days to make up for the increased bioload.

 

[moretor1]

There is no myth out there. IMHO. It is totally possible (though unlikely as already mentioned multiple times) - for errors to happen after transferring an old tank to a new tank - which results in ammonia, etc issues. Thus, even though it's 'rare', it's prudent when one has a 200 gallon tank with 20,000+ dollars of coral, etc. to monitor chemistry for a couple days afterwards (along the lines of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure). If you want to take it to extremes, in reality - those that are testing alkalinity, Ca, PO4 Nitrate more than 2-3 times/week are probably most often getting 'normal' results and are wasting their time and money. But - they know if their corals are using more alkalinity, and Ca etc. Skip cycling a large tank involves several steps - its sometimes difficult to do it as fast as one would like to - meaning its possible that things to change/die/etc. Again - most people with large tanks probably have the experience to do it without any issue. It is impossible for anyone to state with 100% certainty (IMHO) - that there will not be a problem with a given tank change, i.e. skip cycle. Thus - testing for ammonia, etc after a skip cycle in a larger system would be stupid NOT to do - given the potential risks.

I believe there are also work threads out there talking about tanks that have had problems with this method - mostly when moving old sand with the rock to the new tank.

By the way - I think I read you writing something along the lines of if you increase the bioload in a tank the bacteria on the rocks will rapidly increase and there will be no ammonia issue (if you didn't I apologize). In reality - if you markedly the bioload (lets say you have 3 tangs in a 50 gallon and you add 5 more), You may very well have an ammonia issue. Likewise - if you're doing a skip cycle - lets say a 20 gallon to a 100 gallon tank, and add only your old rock into the new tank, but multiply the bioload by 3, its entirely possible that your rock may take days to make up for the increased bioload.

To be fair Brandon has warned people not to overload tanks when skip cycling (me included)

Yes it will take time for the bacteria to grow for the increased bioload but I don't know many people who are going to transplant a tank and triple their bioload (unless its just a couple of corals) in a day let alone a week or two

And yes there is an inherent risk with your live rock dying off during the transfer, but that risk is also held whenever transferring anything from one system to another.
Unless allowed to dry out, a large majority of the bacteria would survive and the speed at which they multiply would be back to normal levels in less than 3 days imo

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

This is a bit off topic - but it's not a great idea to do what you're doing. Instead, you buy for a very small amount of money - a calibration solution for your refractometer. IF you made an error weighing, etc when you made your own standard, you could have a major problem

I think your confusing what Im doing vs what I say is bad to do lol.

I have store bought, I very the salinity is correct and verify that my refractometer is also correct by comparing to prebought calibration solution.

I was giving a bad example as what it sounded like Brandon was doing per interpretation with seneye lol.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

Below we fast forward from 1989 to 1994. The Reef Aquarium Vol 1 is newly released and quickly becomes the go to source for trusted information.

It surprises me that someone who has invested so much into cycling science has never stumbled across probably the most well known reference sources in the hobby.

I guess this is just emblematic of the internet age. Quality reference books like these and Tullocks Natural Reef Aquarium are relegated to hieroglyph status buried in dusty bookshelves or displayed as token background ornaments on a YouTube vloggers shelf.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

No that thread say the total opposite - they are not correct direct from the box. His experiment show that it only show around 28 % of the real concentration.

Sincerely Lasse

Well reading what you linked down further is what I got out of it and was discussing. Please just post or provide explanation rather than just pointing to a thread and stating FYI and reference the section.

I will read down in the weeds lol. But that is what I got out of it reading the replies and from seneye response.

 

[moretor1]

No that thread say the total opposite - they are not correct direct from the box. His experiment show that it only show around 28 % of the real concentration.

Sincerely Lasse

28% the real concentration of ammonia or ammonium?
The seneye tests for ammonia (nh3), at reef Ph levels you would expect to see a ratio of ammonia to ammonium of ~1:3 (according to Randy's article on reef alchemy)

If you are looking for ammonium levels and got 1/3 the expected amount but in ammonia then your ammonium would be accurate. Or vice versa

 

[MnFish1]

To be fair Brandon has warned people not to overload tanks when skip cycling (me included)

Yes it will take time for the bacteria to grow for the increased bioload but I don't know many people who are going to transplant a tank and triple their bioload (unless its just a couple of corals) in a day let alone a week or two

And yes there is an inherent risk with your live rock dying off during the transfer, but that risk is also held whenever transferring anything from one system to another.
Unless allowed to dry out, a large majority of the bacteria would survive and the speed at which they multiply would be back to normal levels in less than 3 days imo

The issue with the rock is the various inverts that may not survive - and again it's only a potential issue - but it is certainly riskier not to test than to test, IMO.

The problem is that (to my recollection) it has also been said that within a very short time - any shortage of bacteria will be mitigated. If mainly heterotrophs take over - that should be fairly quick - as the new 'bioload' produces waste.

But - we agree that there is an inherent risk with your live rock dying with any transfer. Which is why the statement that 'one never needs to check chemistries when doing a tank transfer/skip cycle' seems imprudent to me