A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[Paston1]

Decided to do this type of cycle in my new build (monster thread section). Pulling 2 rocks from current established tank. Will add vitamin c and d3 into the sump along with some flakes. It will have 4-7 days at best.

getting a couple imported box of coral….who knows what’s on it but foresure bacteria. 4-6 clams, goni, sps, and my trademark euphyllia baby

pack it with damsels, blennies, wrasse, and gobies 2-4 days after coral arrive.

my thinking is based on Redfield ratio. Using the live rock adds established bacteria. The vitamins are the carbon source, phyto plankton are the nitrate and phosphate needed. Now just need 3-7 days for it to complete. Now we before we think phyto is a issue, seeding 1G of each copepod the first day the salinity is matched. This way can dose phyto on day one. Will also have macro in the sump on day 1-2 of the tank running so soak up the excess nitrates, phosphates and carbon.

I have a feeling that with coral in the tank before fish, it will use ammonia as well as the preferred nitrogen source.

Last time I did something like this was a 100% rock change same day and left the rock with Prodibio in a vat for 4 days. The live stock in the tank was gem, sailfin, purple and eel. Nothing died and no immediate shocks. Yes the sand was live but I think the coral themselves are doing more then we see.

I wanted to do this well before reading this and to show my local reef buddies it’s doable, plus hate water changes and these new cycles always result in “water change to reduce nitrates”

 

[KrisReef]

Decided to do this type of cycle in my new build (monster thread section). Pulling 2 rocks from current established tank. Will add vitamin c and d3 into the sump along with some flakes. It will have 4-7 days at best.

getting a couple imported box of coral….who knows what’s on it but foresure bacteria. 4-6 clams, goni, sps, and my trademark euphyllia baby

pack it with damsels, blennies, wrasse, and gobies 2-4 days after coral arrive.

my thinking is based on Redfield ratio. Using the live rock adds established bacteria. The vitamins are the carbon source, phyto plankton are the nitrate and phosphate needed. Now just need 3-7 days for it to complete. Now we before we think phyto is a issue, seeding 1G of each copepod the first day the salinity is matched. This way can dose phyto on day one. Will also have macro in the sump on day 1-2 of the tank running so soak up the excess nitrates, phosphates and carbon.

I have a feeling that with coral in the tank before fish, it will use ammonia as well as the preferred nitrogen source.

Last time I did something like this was a 100% rock change same day and left the rock with Prodibio in a vat for 4 days. The live stock in the tank was gem, sailfin, purple and eel. Nothing died and no immediate shocks. Yes the sand was live but I think the coral themselves are doing more then we see.

I wanted to do this well before reading this and to show my local reef buddies it’s doable, plus hate water changes and these new cycles always result in “water change to reduce nitrates”

Please take photos of the steps taken along the way. This is going to be interesting!

 

[Paston1]

Please take photos of the steps taken along the way. This is going to be interesting!

Monster Build - New build 60x60x26

Started new build with 60x60x26 from glass cages. I do not have a opinion yet as I do not have a product. 1. they are responsive 2. Not overly proactive in updates unless a delay. *2 means little to me as long as 6-8 week deadline is met but they had tornados on week one so have a week delay...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

Decided to do this type of cycle in my new build (monster thread section). Pulling 2 rocks from current established tank. Will add vitamin c and d3 into the sump along with some flakes. It will have 4-7 days at best.

getting a couple imported box of coral….who knows what’s on it but foresure bacteria. 4-6 clams, goni, sps, and my trademark euphyllia baby

pack it with damsels, blennies, wrasse, and gobies 2-4 days after coral arrive.

my thinking is based on Redfield ratio. Using the live rock adds established bacteria. The vitamins are the carbon source, phyto plankton are the nitrate and phosphate needed. Now just need 3-7 days for it to complete. Now we before we think phyto is a issue, seeding 1G of each copepod the first day the salinity is matched. This way can dose phyto on day one. Will also have macro in the sump on day 1-2 of the tank running so soak up the excess nitrates, phosphates and carbon.

I have a feeling that with coral in the tank before fish, it will use ammonia as well as the preferred nitrogen source.

Last time I did something like this was a 100% rock change same day and left the rock with Prodibio in a vat for 4 days. The live stock in the tank was gem, sailfin, purple and eel. Nothing died and no immediate shocks. Yes the sand was live but I think the coral themselves are doing more then we see.

I wanted to do this well before reading this and to show my local reef buddies it’s doable, plus hate water changes and these new cycles always result in “water change to reduce nitrates”

Let us know how it works out. Good luck. But - most definitely - it would be rare if you added that much filtration capability up front that there would be any changes. (i.e. I think the coral and live rock will support it). I do not see any relationship of these things to the 'Redfield Ratio' though. I am curious how/why are you dosing vitamin D?

Good luck!!

 

[Paston1]

Let us know how it works out. Good luck. But - most definitely - it would be rare if you added that much filtration capability up front that there would be any changes. (i.e. I think the coral and live rock will support it). I do not see any relationship of these things to the 'Redfield Ratio' though. I am curious how/why are you dosing vitamin D?

Good luck!!

Bacteria needs carbon:nitratehosphate I forget the amount but know they use it.
phyto 106:16:1
Bacteria 32:6:1

If I spike the carbon input before fish arrive that will allow the nitrates and phosphates to convert and repopulate rather quickly. Same as when ghost feed a tank it’s just recycling the nutrients to feed that bacteria. phyto contains a good amount of this thankfully to assist in the process basically 3 bacteria for every phyto (I have 8 cultures 1G a piece to be dosed in the tank. )prefer to spike this option while waiting for the delta cargo. We are talking 40-60 maybe 100-150 coral pieces day 1 from the ocean though so it will have lots of bacteria on it. That bacteria should save the day for round 1 of fish probably 20 but maybe 30-35. The clams and coral will remove the nitrate as it’s presented and skip the ugly phase.
Best water for coral is fresh made salt so capitalize on that. Use that coral to offset the fish output and allow my established bacteria to grow as well as the coral bacteria.

dangers I see is not matching alk perfectly and getting a BJD event lol. That’s why importing before pulling from my my high ends.

have debated some of the hammers that are on massive frag disks though to also go over.

 

[MnFish1]

Bacteria needs carbon:nitratehosphate I forget the amount but know they use it.
phyto 106:16:1
Bacteria 32:6:1

If I spike the carbon input before fish arrive that will allow the nitrates and phosphates to convert and repopulate rather quickly. Same as when ghost feed a tank it’s just recycling the nutrients to feed that bacteria. phyto contains a good amount of this thankfully to assist in the process basically 3 bacteria for every phyto (I have 8 cultures 1G a piece to be dosed in the tank. )prefer to spike this option while waiting for the delta cargo. We are talking 40-60 maybe 100-150 coral pieces day 1 from the ocean though so it will have lots of bacteria on it. That bacteria should save the day for round 1 of fish probably 20 but maybe 30-35. The clams and coral will remove the nitrate as it’s presented and skip the ugly phase.
Best water for coral is fresh made salt so capitalize on that. Use that coral to offset the fish output and allow my established bacteria to grow as well as the coral bacteria.

dangers I see is not matching alk perfectly and getting a BJD event lol. That’s why importing before pulling from my my high ends.

have debated some of the hammers that are on massive frag disks though to also go over.

Here is my question - not really a disagreement. How are you measuring C:N? Since there aren't any tests for those (i.e. N is not the same as nitrate, and P is not the same as phosphate?

Second where did you get the data that suggest that bacteria 'need' a certain C:N? From what I've seen it varies considerably depending on what bacteria you're talking about.

Lastly - lets pretend that N in the Redfield ratio is Nitrate and PO4 is the P. This would imply that a tank would do just as well with a Nitrate of 16 and a phosphate of 1 as as a tank with a nitrate of 160 and a phosphate of 10. (Both are 16:1)

Note - I have no disagreement with your plan - I think it will work. I just don't think there is any way you can accurately relate it to the Redfield ratio?

 

[Paston1]

Here is my question - not really a disagreement. How are you measuring C:N? Since there aren't any tests for those (i.e. N is not the same as nitrate, and P is not the same as phosphate?

Second where did you get the data that suggest that bacteria 'need' a certain C:N? From what I've seen it varies considerably depending on what bacteria you're talking about.

Lastly - lets pretend that N in the Redfield ratio is Nitrate and PO4 is the P. This would imply that a tank would do just as well with a Nitrate of 16 and a phosphate of 1 as as a tank with a nitrate of 160 and a phosphate of 10. (Both are 16:1)

Note - I have no disagreement with your plan - I think it will work. I just don't think there is any way you can accurately relate it to the Redfield ratio?

Agree on relating as current tank runs high nitrate to the point of last test in the 40’s but I chalk that up to co2 and phophsate from cal reactor.

it’s based from carbon dosing to remove the nitrate and then with vitamins to help absorb the elements. Will have to dose quickly but beats a water change lol.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree on relating as current tank runs high nitrate to the point of last test in the 40’s but I chalk that up to co2 and phophsate from cal reactor.

it’s based from carbon dosing to remove the nitrate and then with vitamins to help absorb the elements. Will have to dose quickly but beats a water change lol.

The reason I was wondering about vitamin D is that its a fat-soluble vitamin - I was wondering how you were dosing it?

 

[WestonNanos]

When swapping live rock from an established tank into a new tank, would it help , hurt, or have no effect to start cycling dry rock in the new tank with bottled bac and a fish?

Sorry, at work, havent had time to dive into all of the info and examples in this thread.

Also, really appreciate all of the @brandon429 threads, great stuff!

 

[Sean_B]

is a "skipped cycle" recognized as simply a new tank with new inhabitants? superficially, it doesn't seem like a legitimate conclusion to state a cycled tank can be instantaneous when it hasn't really gone through a cycle? Adding a full quantity of seasoned, microbiome packed Live Rock that presumably has no die off is, in my humble opinion the equivalent of an extremely large water change, which I see as a principle example for tank stability/quick fixes in many other threads.

I plan on "seasoning" some Live Rock at least 6 months before I set my tank up. what would my expected cycle be with that mentality? would my tank even cycle? would that be considered a "skipped cycle". I simply see it as taking the necessary steps. I've read a lot of great information on successful reef tank keeping, mostly on this site, now it's just a matter of using some common sense and connecting the dots.......................

#still learning

 

[Paston1]

The reason I was wondering about vitamin D is that its a fat-soluble vitamin - I was wondering how you were dosing it?

I take their food, let it thaw. Let the excess liquid out and then add the pill. Swirl it around a bunch. Let it sit for 30 minutes the. Pour phyto in the jar and ghost to the tank.
Everyday I do this and vitamin c pill. Once a week b12. Will stop once the reef plus from seachem arrives as it has these vitamins in it along with traces.

 

[Paston1]

is a "skipped cycle" recognized as simply a new tank with new inhabitants? superficially, it doesn't seem like a legitimate conclusion to state a cycled tank can be instantaneous when it hasn't really gone through a cycle? Adding a full quantity of seasoned, microbiome packed Live Rock that presumably has no die off is, in my humble opinion the equivalent of an extremely large water change, which I see as a principle example for tank stability/quick fixes in many other threads.

I plan on "seasoning" some Live Rock at least 6 months before I set my tank up. what would my expected cycle be with that mentality? would my tank even cycle? would that be considered a "skipped cycle". I simply see it as taking the necessary steps. I've read a lot of great information on successful reef tank keeping, mostly on this site, now it's just a matter of using some common sense and connecting the dots.......................

#still learning

More due to the fact of you want to push the envelope. Well I do at least. I strongly don’t like the “old methods” or the “new methods” pushed by the big stores.

I think about how many coral are added to new water day 1 of a show. Well they can use ammonia as a nitrogen source per studies. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2020.0620

i don’t plan to use live rock as much as I plan to use lots of coral. 1 - 2 rocks from a tank and tossed in. Bacteria can multiply quickly. Lots of coral can reduce element and nutrients in the water.

for me this is about proving in a week you can jam a tank and also avoid a water change. When your tank is high water volume, water changes are more a job then a maintenance. 20% change is over 100G. That’s a last resort for me and because nitrate is high at the end of the cycle. Well coral and clams use that so why not test it. Granted it all comes down to filtration as well. Natural filtration (microfauna, livestock, clams) should win the day over man made (socks, skimmer, gfo, GAC, etc) imo. But I’m that guy who wants to do what others don’t or say can’t be done. Worst case I kill some stuff, best case prove to myself and others it can be done.

 

[Paston1]

When swapping live rock from an established tank into a new tank, would it help , hurt, or have no effect to start cycling dry rock in the new tank with bottled bac and a fish?

Sorry, at work, havent had time to dive into all of the info and examples in this thread.

Also, really appreciate all of the @brandon429 threads, great stuff!

Can’t hurt but the thread is to prove it’s not needed. To me that’s insurance.

it’s been said in 7 days of using live rock you are fully cycled, it’s just not used or talked about as much. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work just others bash it because it’s not their way or style.

to me live rock and live sand do better than a bottle ever will. If you can spare rock or sand you have what you need already.

 

[MnFish1]

When swapping live rock from an established tank into a new tank, would it help , hurt, or have no effect to start cycling dry rock in the new tank with bottled bac and a fish?

Sorry, at work, havent had time to dive into all of the info and examples in this thread.

Also, really appreciate all of the @brandon429 threads, great stuff!

it would depend on whether the 'new tank' is going to have a large amount of new inhabitants. If not - it would not hurt. It might help. If you are going to significantly (quickly) increase the bioload - I would add bacteria (like Fritzzyme). If you are going to be taking some time (i.e. more than 12-24 hours - IMHO it will help. If you're going to be adding new rock as part of the design and you're adding the same inhabitants (and any filtration?) I would not.

Some will disagree - I think adding nitrifying bacteria at this juncture no matter what is a CHEAP insurance policy.

 

[MnFish1]

I take their food, let it thaw. Let the excess liquid out and then add the pill. Swirl it around a bunch. Let it sit for 30 minutes the. Pour phyto in the jar and ghost to the tank.
Everyday I do this and vitamin c pill. Once a week b12. Will stop once the reef plus from seachem arrives as it has these vitamins in it along with traces.

I think in your original post you said vitamin D. so I was curious how you dose a fat soluble vitamin in your tank.

Will add vitamin c and d3

 

[WestonNanos]

it would depend on whether the 'new tank' is going to have a large amount of new inhabitants. If not - it would not hurt. It might help. If you are going to significantly (quickly) increase the bioload - I would add bacteria (like Fritzzyme). If you are going to be taking some time (i.e. more than 12-24 hours - IMHO it will help. If you're going to be adding new rock as part of the design and you're adding the same inhabitants (and any filtration?) I would not.

Some will disagree - I think adding nitrifying bacteria at this juncture no matter what is a CHEAP insurance policy.

thanks for the help. Basically I have an established tank running, and I have had a new, bigger tank with dry rock / rinsed sand / dr tims and a fish running for the past week (7 days). Tomorrow I am transferring everything from the established tank over to the bigger tank. As far as bioload, the new tank is 50 gal with one chromis, and I will be transferring over a pair of clown, tail spot blenny, cleaner shrimp, x2 nassarius x2 astrea.

 

[MnFish1]

thanks for the help. Basically I have an established tank running, and I have had a new, bigger tank with dry rock / rinsed sand / dr tims and a fish running for the past week (7 days). Tomorrow I am transferring everything from the established tank over to the bigger tank. As far as bioload, the new tank is 50 gal with one chromis, and I will be transferring over a pair of clown, tail spot blenny, cleaner shrimp, x2 nassarius x2 astrea.

assuming the parameters are pretty much the same - I would strongly think that there will be no problems with the transfer. Good luck - hope this helps

 

[WestonNanos]

assuming the parameters are pretty much the same - I would strongly think that there will be no problems with the transfer. Good luck - hope this helps

Helps very much, thankyou!

 

[LRT]

is a "skipped cycle" recognized as simply a new tank with new inhabitants? superficially, it doesn't seem like a legitimate conclusion to state a cycled tank can be instantaneous when it hasn't really gone through a cycle? Adding a full quantity of seasoned, microbiome packed Live Rock that presumably has no die off is, in my humble opinion the equivalent of an extremely large water change, which I see as a principle example for tank stability/quick fixes in many other threads.

I plan on "seasoning" some Live Rock at least 6 months before I set my tank up. what would my expected cycle be with that mentality? would my tank even cycle? would that be considered a "skipped cycle". I simply see it as taking the necessary steps. I've read a lot of great information on successful reef tank keeping, mostly on this site, now it's just a matter of using some common sense and connecting the dots.......................

#still learning

At the end of the day it depends on the rock your using and bioload its carrying before placed in new tank. Cured(no die off) live rock from ocean and even dry rock from established healthy tank should be fully sufficient and able and expected to carry biomass it was already carrying without skipping a beat. Your just adding new water.
Far as cycles and what I'd personally consider a cycle would be what our testing and monitoring shows us.
Some people cycle tanks using different methods. Ask 10 people you will probably get 7 different answers judging by the posts.
I choose to go with minimal feeding and measure nh3 with seneye. It allows us to see things on a much smaller more precise level.
Randy says we can cycle ammonia as an alternative to other methods.
So yes as insignificant as a cycle it may be to some. Testing and monitoring still showed nh3 cycling and stabilizing during first cpl feedings in first 24hrs. Using 2 yr old cured rock plucked from ocean.
Significant enough to raise concern? No not at all not even close to threshold of toxic levels.
I think its more about means and methods and each tank is different. We can take different methods and apply across the board though. Thats probably the biggest thing thats being overlooked.

 

[Paston1]

I think in your original post you said vitamin D. so I was curious how you dose a fat soluble vitamin in your tank.

I toss the pill in the tank. Nothing really fancy about it. It’s not the gel ones.