ACI Kalkwasser Method.... I've watched this video and read a few articles, still not sure the exact method.

[Shooter6]

You need to keep the kalk in suspension. You are dosing a sort of slurry in that method.

Not necessarily. People do as described, dosing full saturation. Which the 6 tbs to 5 gal would be, with a little precipitation of excessive kalk.

Slurry would be adding more kalk then will desolve into that 5gal, then keeping it in suspension while dosing it.

I do the slurry dosing, but on a continuous 24hr dose schedule.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I figured that would ruffle some feathers.

I'm not here to advocate for the method, just share what I've been told. I am testing it. I've always been open of my failures. If this becomes the next one, I'll be more than happy to share.

The method of using a kalk slurry is fine, even if I think it suboptimal. The comments about hydroxide alk are simply wrong, however.

 

[jhuntstl]

The method of using a kalk slurry is fine, even if I think it suboptimal. The comments about hydroxide alk are simply wrong, however.

Ya I'm not sure what to think about the science claimed behind the technique. Definitely not here to argue. I am but a simple carpenter who's about to go sizzle his brain working in the summer heat.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ya I'm not sure what to think about the science claimed behind the technique. Definitely not here to argue. I am but a simple carpenter who's about to go sizzle his brain working in the summer heat.

Reefers, including some well known reef authors, have long misunderstood hydroxide dosing, but the effect is exactly and perfectly understood by chemists. It's not open to having different opinions or hypotheses or such things. It is simple and factual chemical science.

I discuss it in detail here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

and in summary here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

There is no aspect of reef aquarium chemistry more important than calcium and alkalinity. Many of my previous articles have described various aspects of these systems in detail. In reading those articles, aquarists will note one pervasive theme: that maintaining appropriate levels of each are...

www.reefedition.com

The calcium ions in the solution obviously supply calcium to the tank, and the hydroxide ions supply alkalinity. Hydroxide (OH–) itself provides alkalinity (both by definition and as measured with an alkalinity test), but corals consume alkalinity as bicarbonate, not hydroxide. Fortunately, when limewater is used in a reef tank, it quickly combines with atmospheric and in- tank carbon dioxide (CO2) and bicarbonate (HCO3–) to form bicarbonate and carbonate (CO3—):

OH– + CO2 → HCO3–

OH– + HCO3– → CO3— + H2O

Once in the aquarium at an acceptable pH, there is no concern that the alkalinity provided by limewater is any different than any other carbonate alkalinity supplement. The hydroxide immediately disappears into the bicarbonate/carbonate system. In other words, the amount of hydroxide present in aquarium water is really only a function of pH (regardless of what has been added), and at any pH below 9, it is an insignificant factor in alkalinity tests (much less than 0.1 dKH). Consequently, the fact that alkalinity is initially supplied as hydroxide is not to be viewed as problematic, except as it impacts pH (see below).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Apparently, the ACI folks have additional chemical misunderstandings that should convince folks to pay no mind to their chemical “explanations” of what happens in reef aquaria.

Potassium Hydroxide Dosing??

OK, KOH and Ca(OH)2. There is nothing special or particularly useful about potassium hydroxide. There are very few situations where I'd use it. Maybe none. Hydroxide in any form (sodium, potassium, calcium) is a way to boost alkalinity and also pH. It has about twice the pH raising effect...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Shooter6]

I think there may be some confusion or mixing of the aci statements.

I tried to post this earlier but I don't think it did so I'm trying to put the same info here. Like I said in that post I am not defending their statements, only trying to clear up a few things.

When he said raised alk but dropping calcium, it was not dosing kalkwasser. I believe that statement was said in regards to his dosing potassium hydroxide.

That dosing the potassium hydroxide raised alk tremendously, but not calcium. And that that could cause calcium to need to be dosed separately as a calcium reactor wouldn't be able to since it's controlled via alk measurements. Same would apply to kalk dosing.

Secondly the kalk dosing is done via apex and ph probe. The apex is programmed to dose during lights out, to match average evaporation rate BUT only if ph drops below the designated level. I believe he said 8.29. Therefore if ph raises to that or above, the kalk dosing is stopped until it lowers again.

2 seperate dosing methods that seem to be getting combined into a bit of confusion.

He also runs a calcium reactor on his systems so he has at least 3 things coming together.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think there may be some confusion or mixing of the aci statements.

I tried to post this earlier but I don't think it did so I'm trying to put the same info here. Like I said in that post I am not defending their statements, only trying to clear up a few things.

When he said raised alk but dropping calcium, it was not dosing kalkwasser. I believe that statement was said in regards to his dosing potassium hydroxide.

No, absolutely not true. He specifically described that it is unbalanced because it provides one calcium and two hydroxides.

Seriously flawed reasoning, but no misunderstanding that he means potassium hydroxide.

 

[Shooter6]

No, absolutely not true. He specifically described that it is unbalanced because it provides one calcium and two hydroxides.

Seriously flawed reasoning, but no misunderstanding that he means potassium hydroxide.

Ic. I know he was stating the change in the two different parameters happens from dosing potassium hydroxide. But I never saw he said it also occurs from kalkwasser.

 

[Semisonyx]

I’d like to think the ACI guy means well, but his blatant lack of knowledge of basic chemistry coupled with his ego and lack of humility towards admitting his likely misunderstanding of his marine biologist/chemist friend (or that said mystery friend’s explanation could be wrong) makes him look like a total muppet.

What’s worse is all the once respected reefers turned youtube shills who take their turn on this village bicycle of ignorance and disregard how the advice of their video or its guest could likely destroy the livestock in the tank of a newbie who thinks this methodology is the missing secret, but will follow it anyway because they trust the content creator without researching and learning the facts and science.

That being said, I think ACI’s method may just be a case of “task failed successfully”. It works, but their understanding of why it works is completely flawed. I used to be able to put kalk in the topoff and keep up with alk demand on my 40g and 58g. On a 180g sps tank? Not so much, so I use Randy’s classic 2 part and recently decided to dose a saturated kalk solution 24/7 at the rate of about half gallon/day after checking pH in my tank for the first time in 25 years with a probe from a carx build. My evap averages 1 gallon a day, so with a demand of 1.25dkH/day, no way kalk alone can keep up. However, if I were an aquaculture facility with a warmer environment, constant outside air, and doing gallons of water changes a day via bagging and shipping corals, I could probably easily replace my lost water volume with 2x evap of saturated kalk and a concentrated high salinity drip (to retain salinity) plus a hydroxide of my choice and a during key periods to reduce pH dips and keep it high and stable.

Perhaps the idea is that if pH is high and stable, alk will naturally fall in an acceptable range for SPS. If you said you were dosing an alk supplement that was high in Borate and your alk spiked when first introducing kalk before it leveled out, I could possibly buy that. Ca skyrocketing or plummeting? Unlikely. Hydroxide scraping and searching the system for carbonate? Ugh.

Either way this is a more advanced technique for advanced reefers who are bored with nothing better to do, but have the experience to know how to tweak it to get what they want, not for the new reefer who needs to learn basic stability of alk/Ca, and I wish there were more honest disclaimers about that in these videos. Chasing pH is a great way for a newbie to nuke their tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FYI, I got an email response from Chris at ACI. He seems to have some misunderstanding of what I have said and think (not sure if he even read my whole email), and I asked for a clarification of whether he stands by his comment that kalkwasser is not balanced because it contains one calcium and two hydroxides.

 

[jhuntstl]

I'm a month into testing this myself. I don't dose my full evaporation at night like the ACI guy. I have an opposite light cycle frag tank, so I dose 24/7 at 12ml/hour. My controller's pH probe is set to turn on my peristaltic at 8.3 and off at 8.4. I dose out of a 20g brute.

I started increasing kalkwasser dosing on 6/21. I was at 7.4dkh.

6/27 - 9.4
6/29- 10
7/3- 11.8
7/6- 12.5
7/10- 11.8
7/14- 10.9
7/19- 11.7
7/20 - 11.5

Last I checked calcium was 440 on 7/4.

So far, so good. Happy coral. No stress that I've been able to notice. My pH is closer to NSW levels and very stable since I run my frag opposite light cycle.

I think I'll see a slow and steady drop in alkalinity over the coming months. At some point I'll have to supplement the kalkwasser or maybe even increase evaporation with fans. Assuming my tank doesn't come crashing down before then. =)

I'm finding this method much less stressful than maintaining a stable alkalinity. As long as I frequently clean and calibrate my pH probes, I feel confident in the dosing.

 

[Shooter6]

I’d like to think the ACI guy means well, but his blatant lack of knowledge of basic chemistry coupled with his ego and lack of humility towards admitting his likely misunderstanding of his marine biologist/chemist friend (or that said mystery friend’s explanation could be wrong) makes him look like a total muppet.

What’s worse is all the once respected reefers turned youtube shills who take their turn on this village bicycle of ignorance and disregard how the advice of their video or its guest could likely destroy the livestock in the tank of a newbie who thinks this methodology is the missing secret, but will follow it anyway because they trust the content creator without researching and learning the facts and science.

That being said, I think ACI’s method may just be a case of “task failed successfully”. It works, but their understanding of why it works is completely flawed. I used to be able to put kalk in the topoff and keep up with alk demand on my 40g and 58g. On a 180g sps tank? Not so much, so I use Randy’s classic 2 part and recently decided to dose a saturated kalk solution 24/7 at the rate of about half gallon/day after checking pH in my tank for the first time in 25 years with a probe from a carx build. My evap averages 1 gallon a day, so with a demand of 1.25dkH/day, no way kalk alone can keep up. However, if I were an aquaculture facility with a warmer environment, constant outside air, and doing gallons of water changes a day via bagging and shipping corals, I could probably easily replace my lost water volume with 2x evap of saturated kalk and a concentrated high salinity drip (to retain salinity) plus a hydroxide of my choice and a during key periods to reduce pH dips and keep it high and stable.

Perhaps the idea is that if pH is high and stable, alk will naturally fall in an acceptable range for SPS. If you said you were dosing an alk supplement that was high in Borate and your alk spiked when first introducing kalk before it leveled out, I could possibly buy that. Ca skyrocketing or plummeting? Unlikely. Hydroxide scraping and searching the system for carbonate? Ugh.

Either way this is a more advanced technique for advanced reefers who are bored with nothing better to do, but have the experience to know how to tweak it to get what they want, not for the new reefer who needs to learn basic stability of alk/Ca, and I wish there were more honest disclaimers about that in these videos. Chasing pH is a great way for a newbie to nuke their tank.

I dont understand why you think you would need a drip to maintain salinity?

As for your tank you do know you can increase evaporation right? On my 1200gal system I dose 3gal of kalk slurry, tm all for reef and redsea 3part. But I have in the past increased evaporation and dosed 5gal of kalkwasser on this system as well.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

FYI, I got an email response from Chris at ACI. He seems to have some misunderstanding of what I have said and think (not sure if he even read my whole email), and I asked for a clarification of whether he stands by his comment that kalkwasser is not balanced because it contains one calcium and two hydroxides.

More pls this is getting good....for learning/scientific reasons, not the entertainment

Question: do you recommend using a display tank full of fish and corals as a kalk reactor? I like a nice hazey tank the fish might too

 

[BanjoBandito]

It’s seems really strange that ACI is throwing out bad chemistry…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t want to keep cross posting to both threads, but this one relates to both:


I followed up my second email to them with a third that gives some possible scenarios that might cause calcium to decline when using kalkwasser when by itself, calcium should rise. Perhaps we can figure out why he observed what he did (calcium decline):


Here are some possibilities:

1. Dosing nitrate in any form adds alkalinity when it is consumed.
2. Dosing phosphate in some forms adds alkalinity (though typically much less than dosing nitrate)
3. Dosing amino acids may add alkalinity
4. Dosing silicate will add alkalinity
5. Replacing evaporation with tap water or other source water that contains alkalinity
6. Doing water changes with a mix that has relatively higher alk than calcium EVEN IF the water change water has higher calcium than the tank water. For example, if the new salt water is 430 ppm calcium and 11 dKH, and the tank is 420 ppm calcium and 7 dKH, water changes will tend to deplete calcium if alk is maintained.
7. Slow dissolution of substrate that contains a substantial amount of magnesium in the calcium carbonate, relative to the demand by corals, will tend to lower calcium if alk is maintained.
8. Slow release of alkalinity for artificial rock (cement) can boost alk and that may deplete calcium if alk is maintained.

 

[Crustaceon]

I'll go out on a limb and just say dumping a bunch of rapid ph increasing chemical into your tank all at once is probably going to cause a number of problems, not limited to precipitation and subsequent alkalinity/calcium stability issues. I've always been on the train of thought where gradual water chemistry changes are better than abrupt ones and I certainly wouldn't give up alkalinity stability in exchange for attempting to rapidly boost ph, which may or may not have any actual benefit. I stand by that. This is just my opinion and personal experience. Randy would be the man for the job here.

 

[Shooter6]

I'll go out on a limb and just say dumping a bunch of rapid ph increasing chemical into your tank all at once is probably going to cause a number of problems, not limited to precipitation and subsequent alkalinity/calcium stability issues. I've always been on the train of thought where gradual water chemistry changes are better than abrupt ones and I certainly wouldn't give up alkalinity stability in exchange for attempting to rapidly boost ph, which may or may not have any actual benefit. I stand by that. This is just my opinion and personal experience. Randy would be the man for the job here.

I dont understand where you are basing this comment from.

Who is it your referring to, dumping a bunch of ph rising chemicals into their tank for rapid ph increases? Where in the conversation did you hear anyone saying that? Did I miss a post with that info in it?

 

[Crustaceon]

The second post of the thread asking:

I’m trying to figure it out as well. Best I can tell, it’s dose your entire day’s evaporation at night with saturated kalkwasser kept in a closed container. I.e., if you evaporate 5 gals a day, get a 5 gal contained, fill it with RO water and 6 tbs per gallon of kalk, mix it up and dose it between lights out and lights on. Apparently this results in a higher pH boost than a kalk reactor.

Because... you know someone is going to read this and dump their tank's entire day's evaporation worth of kalk solution into their system before going to bed just because they got the assumption that they absolutely needed to compensate for nighttime ph swing, which would obviously be bad. I also have too many tangs in my tank.

 

[jhuntstl]

The second post of the thread asking:

Because... you know someone is going to read this and dump their tank's entire day's evaporation worth of kalk solution into their system before going to bed just because they got the assumption that they absolutely needed to compensate for nighttime ph swing, which would obviously be bad. I also have too many tangs in my tank.

If anyone were to do that, they'd only have themselves to blame.

 

[Semisonyx]

I dont understand why you think you would need a drip to maintain salinity?

As for your tank you do know you can increase evaporation right? On my 1200gal system I dose 3gal of kalk slurry, tm all for reef and redsea 3part. But I have in the past increased evaporation and dosed 5gal of kalkwasser on this system as well.

Somewhere in one of the multitude of videos he’s been in recently, he said something about dosing 2x his evaporation volume with saturated kalkwasser. If I had 1,000 gallon system and evaporated 5g a day, I couldn’t just add 10g of kalk. If I evaporated 5g and then also removed 5g to bagging corals, then I’d be able to dose 10g of kalk, but that would lower my salinity unless I also added something short of 3 cups of salt in a highly concentrated drip or toppff in order to replenish the salinity.

Yes, you can use a fan to increase evaporation, but that’s still 1x evap. The problem is that Chris has said many things that don’t quite add up or make sense. I’m all for him having a secret sauce recipe that works for him, but trying to sell others on it and not giving full and consistent disclosure of his methods and materials as well as using incorrect information is bad form.