Advice for a complete supplement dosing that utilizes Kalkwasser

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Red Sea, Triton, Tropic Marin have a complete dosing regiment based on 2-part dosing and achieving ionic balance.

Originally I went with Triton method and the simplicity that I can dose based on Alk. With my GHL KH Director, I was easily able to ULM the whole thing.

However, due to high indoor CO2, I want to switch up to a Kalkwasser based dosing regime.

The best solution I came up with with some help from these forums was:
1. Kalkwasser (ca/alk/ph)
2. Brightwell Magnesion-P (Mg)
3. Tropic Marin K+ Elements (Barium, Boron, Chrome, Cobalt, Iron, Copper, Manganese, Nickel, Strontium, Zinc)
4. Tropic Marin A- Elements (Bromine, Fluorine, Iodine, Lithium, Molybdenum, Selenium, Vanadium)

When the tank demand is high enough where Kalkwasser can't keep up with Ca/Alk, I'll add 2-part or Tropic Marin Carbocalcium.

For my Kalk complete 4-part, I would like to ULM it with automation. If I make the assumption that trace elements are consumed relative to Ca/Alk (ala Triton). I should be able to use my PH probe, Salinity Probe, and KH Director to fully automate dosing.

The rough formula for TM All for Reef is 140g of Carbocalcium, 12ml of Bio-magnesium, 800ml RODI, and 100ml TM A-, and 100ml of TM K+. This amounts to 8000mg/L of Ca, 1360mg/L of Mg, and the TM recommended balance of trace ions/elements (which should be good enough).

Since Kalkwasser is 800mg/L Ca or 10% of the TM All for One formula concentration, for each ml of Kalkwasser, I should dose .01ml of TM A-, .01ml of K+, and .006ml of Magnesion-P (which is mixed to a recommend solution strength of ~22.7 mg/L of Mg).

Checking my math dosing 10 liters of my 4-part would give us 8000mg of Ca, 100ml of each TM Elements, and 60ml of Magnesion-P Solution (1362mg Mg). Looks right.

Automation will consist of incremental dosing of above when ph is below 8.4, Alk is below 8.5, salinity is above 1.024, and sump is below max water hight. Otherwise, it will dose either RODI water if salinity is above 1.024 or ASW if salinity is below 1.024.

A kalk stirrer and 1 liter dosing container should allow me to minimize maintenance.

Advice sought:
1. Is there a better supplement combo for dosing that gives ph boost as well as all the major/minor ions/elements?
2. Are my dosing calculations right?
3. Can the Magnesion-P, TM A-, and TM K+ be combined into a single additive?
4. Any way to make this more ULM?
 

Orm Embar

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
467
Reaction score
297
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Tropic Marin sells a complete supplement that I use called All-For-Reef, which is calcium formate (balanced Ca and alk), magnesium, and trace elements. You can create your own through Bulk Reef Supply's kits for much cheaper using cry calcium formate and Tropic Marin's magnesium, A-, and K+ additives.

The thing I don't know is if you can add the magnesium and supplements to kalkwasser and have everything still remain soluble. I would think that adding magnesium would cause some degree of precipitation, and I don't know if the additives would be soluble as kalkwasser has a much higher pH than dissolved calcium formate.

I will say that I really like 1-part dosing, although my calcium has crept up over time and I will be switching to a pure alkalinity supplement (with some trace additives sporadically) until my calcium comes back down from 500 down to 420, at which point I will go back to 1-part.

Hope this helps!
 

Phil D.

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,355
Reaction score
1,440
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I've ben using Aquaforest Component 1-2-3 Balling method and have had great results. My Ca is solid at 460, Alk at 8.8 and Mag at 1375. My corals really love it.
 

elysics

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,492
Reaction score
1,482
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You could just switch out the sodium carbonate from the 2 part for sodium hydroxide, instead of going for calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) and get the ph boost without mixing up methods. Dr. Farley has made a recipe for doing just that in a thread somewhere.

Or switch back and forth between sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide to hold a particular ph value as some people do.
 

ReefBeta

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
1,427
Location
Seattle, US
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I'm doing the same. Use kalk as major dose, and use DIY all for reef to supplement when kalk can't catch up. So far I'm only dosing kalk, still have ~60% head room. But I don't plan to supplement mg or trace for the kalk part. I don't think it's necessary, just want to keep it simple. I will manually add some mg when necessary, after weekly testing. But so far there is no need.

But I think it's at least safe to do the DIY all for reef mix without adding the carbocalcium. And use that to supplement kalk for mg and trace.
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Tropic Marin sells a complete supplement that I use called All-For-Reef, which is calcium formate (balanced Ca and alk), magnesium, and trace elements. You can create your own through Bulk Reef Supply's kits for much cheaper using cry calcium formate and Tropic Marin's magnesium, A-, and K+ additives.

The thing I don't know is if you can add the magnesium and supplements to kalkwasser and have everything still remain soluble. I would think that adding magnesium would cause some degree of precipitation, and I don't know if the additives would be soluble as kalkwasser has a much higher pH than dissolved calcium formate.

I will say that I really like 1-part dosing, although my calcium has crept up over time and I will be switching to a pure alkalinity supplement (with some trace additives sporadically) until my calcium comes back down from 500 down to 420, at which point I will go back to 1-part.

Hope this helps!
You can't add the Mg and trace to Kalkwasser.
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I've ben using Aquaforest Component 1-2-3 Balling method and have had great results. My Ca is solid at 460, Alk at 8.8 and Mag at 1375. My corals really love it.
I'm specifically looking to use Kalk to boost ph.
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You could just switch out the sodium carbonate from the 2 part for sodium hydroxide, instead of going for calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) and get the ph boost without mixing up methods. Dr. Farley has made a recipe for doing just that in a thread somewhere.

Or switch back and forth between sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide to hold a particular ph value as some people do.
This could work, but would raise salinity over time. My automation that accounts for salinity should account for that...
 

Viking_Reefing

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,317
Reaction score
2,122
Location
Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Personally I would think that the easiest way of doing things would be to compliment the kalk dosing with automatic water changes to keep up with trace elements and dose Mg as needed if at all.
That should cover your needs and have the added benefits of water changes :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
66,527
Reaction score
62,817
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I used limewater (kalkwasser) for 20 years, and many of the things you are suggesting to add did not get depleted in my aquarium using 30% monthly water changes (1% daily).

There's no reason to select the Brightwell Magnesium, A DIY is cheaper and of higher assured purity.
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I used limewater (kalkwasser) for 20 years, and many of the things you are suggesting to add did not get depleted in my aquarium using 30% monthly water changes (1% daily).

There's no reason to select the Brightwell Magnesium, A DIY is cheaper and of higher assured purity.

I like this approach. I'm already doing incremental AWC. For my 34gsl AIO, I just did water changes with IO reef crystals that has elevated parameters to offset depletion.

@Randy Holmes-Farley So are you saying that Kalkwasser plus daily ~1% water changes will maintain Mg and trace ions/elements? I can run ICP tests initially to spot monitor.

I'm transitioning from a mature 7+ year old AIO 34gal to a reefer 525xl which holds about 100gal (108 tank volume + 20 sump volume - rock and sand). I'm going for ULM so Kalk plus 1% AWC is the simplest. I'm just don't want to monitor and individually dose Mg or trace and have dosing regiment that takes care of it.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
66,527
Reaction score
62,817
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I boosted magnesium in normal IO a bit to offset any demand so I never added it directly to the tank.

With that done, I only added iron and silicate as additives. Not everything was maintained, such as manganese. Although I never got around to adding it, the tank seemed fine.

Here's my article based on ICP showing what was and what was not maintained:

 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I boosted magnesium in normal IO a bit to offset any demand so I never added it directly to the tank.

With that done, I only added iron and silicate as additives. Not everything was maintained, such as manganese. Although I never got around to adding it, the tank seemed fine.

Here's my article based on ICP showing what was and what was not maintained:

Greate article. Do you recall if you were using IO Reef Crystals?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
66,527
Reaction score
62,817
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Greate article. Do you recall if you were using IO Reef Crystals?

I do not care for the organic additives additives in RC. I prefer, and only used, normal IO (except once many years before this article when I ordered RC by mistake. lol)
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So I just found this on BRS...

10 Liter DIY All-For-Reef Kit - Tropic Marin - Bulk Reef Supply

Which has the formula I found elsewhere on R2R. So what I'm basically doing is replacing the Carbocalcium (Calcium Formate?) with Kalkwasser. Since kalkwasser has 1/10 the concentration of Ca as Carbocalcium I'm just adjusting the amount of Mg and Trace I'm using to match.

However, based on @Randy Holmes-Farley advice, I think I'm going to just start with just Kalkwasser and my incremental AWC and occasionally run ICP tests until I'm comfortable. If I find ions/elements are getting depleted, I'll add the other components based on the above to my regiment.

With my automation, I feel that overdosing Kalkwasser shouldn't be a concern.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
66,527
Reaction score
62,817
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That's an OK plan. I am not certain if it is "better" than not using it, since TM doesn't say exactly what is in it and some things may not be needed, but I expect it will be fine.
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That's an OK plan. I am not certain if it is "better" than not using it, since TM doesn't say exactly what is in it and some things may not be needed, but I expect it will be fine.
I just want to thank @Randy Holmes-Farley and the Reef2Reef community for all the great information and discussions!
 
OP
OP
arking_mark

arking_mark

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Potomac
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There might be a snag in the plan as I was trying to get to just dosing 2 supplements: Kalk and All for Reef without Carbocalcium.

Just doing my due diligence...

All for Reef recipe without the Carbocalcium may not work. Meaning mixing 800ml of RODI water with 12g of Bio-magnesium with 100ml of A- and 100ml of K+ will cause the trace elements to precipitate out of solution. Just waiting to hear back from @Lou Ekus.

I have also asked if trace A- or K+ could be added to Kalk and/or the Bio-magnesium solution.

Just to make it clear. Kalkwasser is 10% the strength of All for Reef with regard to Ca/Alk.

DIY All for Reef minus Carbocalcium is:
800ml RODI
12g of Bio-magnesium
100ml of A-
100ml of K+

So to make it easy for each ml of Kalkwasser, I would dose .1ml of All for Reef without Carbocalcium.
 

ReefBeta

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
1,427
Location
Seattle, US
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There might be a snag in the plan as I was trying to get to just dosing 2 supplements: Kalk and All for Reef without Carbocalcium.

Just doing my due diligence...

All for Reef recipe without the Carbocalcium may not work. Meaning mixing 800ml of RODI water with 12g of Bio-magnesium with 100ml of A- and 100ml of K+ will cause the trace elements to precipitate out of solution. Just waiting to hear back from @Lou Ekus.

I have also asked if trace A- or K+ could be added to Kalk and/or the Bio-magnesium solution.

Just to make it clear. Kalkwasser is 10% the strength of All for Reef with regard to Ca/Alk.

DIY All for Reef minus Carbocalcium is:
800ml RODI
12g of Bio-magnesium
100ml of A-
100ml of K+

So to make it easy for each ml of Kalkwasser, I would dose .1ml of All for Reef without Carbocalcium.

So you tried that mix and it precipitate?
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

  • I currently have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 64 36.8%
  • Not currently, but I have had feather dusters in my tank in the past.

    Votes: 59 33.9%
  • I have not had feather dusters, but I hope to in the future.

    Votes: 25 14.4%
  • I have no plans to have feather dusters in my tank.

    Votes: 26 14.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
Back
Top