Advice for a complete supplement dosing that utilizes Kalkwasser

[arking_mark]

So you tried that mix and it precipitate?

Not yet. Was confirming everything with @Lou Ekus, as I didn't want to waste anything.

 

[arking_mark]

Or you could just do AWCs like previously discussed and not have to worry. Seems like you’re over complicating things.

I've already started that, but want to complete the approach for a complete Kalkwasser based dosing that includes trace.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

I've already started that, but want to complete the approach for a complete Kalkwasser based dosing that includes trace.

Isn’t the water changes keeping up with the consumption of trace? If so it would be fairly easy to increase them somewhat. Like Randy said, this approach should be sufficient for a good while.
If there’s not a drop adding more elements would be superfluous and potentially could lead to problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've already started that, but want to complete the approach for a complete Kalkwasser based dosing that includes trace.

There's really no such thing as a perfect "complete" trace element supplement since the demand for different trace elements vary a lot tank to tank. Since they come with foods, water changes, and other supplements (intended or not), and are used differently by different organisms, a one size fits all may not fit all.

I used only limewater (kalkwasser) for calcium and alkalinity, and while some trace elements that I never added as a supplement for in short supply (e.g., manganese), others were plentiful (e.g., zinc).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Isn’t the water changes keeping up with the consumption of trace? If so it would be fairly easy to increase them somewhat. Like Randy said, this approach should be sufficient for a good while.
If there’s not a drop adding more elements would be superfluous and potentially could lead to problems.

No, water changes cannot maintain all trace elements at natural levles, unless the new water is far above NSW levels. That is because some deplete rapidly.

The additions may be adequate for the organisms, since we do not know how much of what is really required, but cannot maintain NSW levels of elements such as manganese.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

No, water changes cannot maintain all trace elements at natural, unless the new water is far above NSW levels. That is because some deplete rapidly.

The additions may be adequate for the organisms, since we do not know how much of what is really required, but cannot maintain NSW levels of elements such as manganese.

Right! That stands to reason. Thanks for the correction.

 

[arking_mark]

Isn’t the water changes keeping up with the consumption of trace? If so it would be fairly easy to increase them somewhat. Like Randy said, this approach should be sufficient for a good while.
If there’s not a drop adding more elements would be superfluous and potentially could lead to problems.

I don't think AWC isn't a great way to supplement a tank unless you are using ASW with elevated parameters. The math is pretty straightforward. If you are 50% deficient for something and do a 50% water change, you will still be 25% deficient. I don't think anyone would use AWC for Ca/Alk/Mag replenishment.

However, the I'm not sure the trace elements are well understood in reefing. Many of them may not play a significant role and/or their needed quantities may be far less then their presence in the water. So AWC would be sufficient.

Again, the goal here was to basically come up with a supplement approach that used Kalk for Ca/Alk but still provided all the other major and minor trace ions/elements like Triton Core 7, Red Sea Care, and TM.

 

[arking_mark]

There's really no such thing as a perfect "complete" trace element supplement since the demand for different trace elements vary a lot tank to tank. Since they come with foods, water changes, and other supplements (intended or not), and are used differently by different organisms, a one size fits all may not fit all.

I used only limewater (kalkwasser) for calcium and alkalinity, and while some trace elements that I never added as a supplement for in short supply (e.g., manganese), others were plentiful (e.g., zinc).

Agreed. I'm not looking for perfect, just something equivalent to the high quality products put out by the big boys.

I have the components I need from TM...just figuring out the simplest way to dose them.

I like everything ULM and was going for full automation. Right now, 4 times a day I get Alk readings. Shortly after, I have a schedule window for ATO. If Alk & Ph are below 8.5dkh and 8.3 then I tipoff with Kalk otherwise it tops off with RODI. The ATO dosing window ensures that no more than a .25 dKH change can occur. Since Ph is constantly monitored, if that gets to 8.3, it switches to RODI.

Still tweeking the numbers, but for my 400L tank, 3600ml of saturated Kalkwasser would raise tank dKH by 1. So I'm dosing at a rate of 60ml/min for 15 minutes, 4x a day.

I'm thinking of just moving to a much slower dosing rate and eliminating the ATO dosing window. The reason for the window is a safety precaution in case the float valve misfunctions or my Ph readings are bad.

 

[arking_mark]

Ok. Here is the Kalkwasser based dosing regime that will provide equivalent All-for-Reef supplements.

1. Saturated Kalkwasser
2. 12g Bio-magnesium w/ 900ml of RODI and 100ml of K+
3. 900ml of RODI and 100ml of A-

For each ml of Kalkwasser dose .1ml of each of the Mag/K+ and A-.

@Lou Ekus @Randy Holmes-Farley Look right?

Recommended initial dosing for All-for-Reef is 5ml per 100L of tank and a maximum dosage of 20ml. This would translate to an initial 5ml each of Mag/K+ and A- and 50ml of saturated Kalkwasser and a maximum dosage of 20ml each of Mag/K+ and A- and 800ml of saturated Kalkwasser.

So for a 400L volume (my tank) recommended initial dosing would be 20ml of All-for-Reef. So for above, it would be 20ml each of Mag/K+and A- and 200ml saturated Kalk.

In my case since I'm monitoring Ph and Alk, I'm just limiting the raise in Alk by .25dKH per dosing...I'm dosing 4x a day. Per the reef calculator, it takes 900ml of Kalkwasser to have a .25dKH rise in my dKH.

Interestingly enough, the max dosage of All-for-Reef corresponds with a ~.25dKH increase. So I think I have everything lined up...

@Lou Ekus @Randy Holmes-Farley Thoughts on the overall approach?

 

[ReefBeta]

If your have separate solution for K+ and A-, why not use them directly? You won't even have to use bio mg. Just add mg once a week or after testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok. Here is the Kalkwasser based dosing regime that will provide equivalent All-for-Reef supplements.

1. Saturated Kalkwasser
2. 12g Bio-magnesium w/ 900ml of RODI and 100ml of K+
3. 900ml of RODI and 100ml of A-

For each ml of Kalkwasser dose .1ml of each of the Mag/K+ and A-.

@Lou Ekus @Randy Holmes-Farley Look right?

Recommended initial dosing for All-for-Reef is 5ml per 100L of tank and a maximum dosage of 20ml. This would translate to an initial 5ml each of Mag/K+ and A- and 50ml of saturated Kalkwasser and a maximum dosage of 20ml each of Mag/K+ and A- and 800ml of saturated Kalkwasser.

So for a 400L volume (my tank) recommended initial dosing would be 20ml of All-for-Reef. So for above, it would be 20ml each of Mag/K+and A- and 200ml saturated Kalk.

In my case since I'm monitoring Ph and Alk, I'm just limiting the raise in Alk by .25dKH per dosing...I'm dosing 4x a day. Per the reef calculator, it takes 900ml of Kalkwasser to have a .25dKH rise in my dKH.

Interestingly enough, the max dosage of All-for-Reef corresponds with a ~.25dKH increase. So I think I have everything lined up...

@Lou Ekus @Randy Holmes-Farley Thoughts on the overall approach?

I find it humorous that K+ elements does not contain the element K+. lol

Other than that, it seems OK, though I do not know if all of those ingredients are necessary or if the amounts present are sufficient.

 

[arking_mark]

If your have separate solution for K+ and A-, why not use them directly? You won't even have to use bio mg. Just add mg once a week or after testing.

I'm automating everything. So 3 dosing pumps instead of 4 is more efficient and cost effective. I am going ULM and don't want to do weekly testing...but will use occasional ICP testing in addition to my automated testing. I may end up getting a GHL Ion Director in the future. For now, I am looking for a good enough solution that can just use Alk measurements for major/minor/trace ion/element replenishment.

 

[arking_mark]

I find it humorous that K+ elements does not contain the element K+. lol

Other than that, it seems OK, though I do not know if all of those ingredients are necessary or if the amounts present are sufficient.

Agreed, but it is at least in line with what TM recommends. So probably good enough for an approach.

Anyway, I am just starting with Kalk, then adding the Mag supplement, then finally the trace. I'll ICP my water for the 1st couple of months to monitor and adjust supplements. Then occasional ICP testing to ensure the regiment is working. I'm sure I'll revisit this several times before I settle on what actually meets my tank needs.

 

[arking_mark]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Per one of your other threads: "The immediate pH spike is about 0.6-0.7 pH units for each 1.4 dKH added instantly to seawater."

Is it safe to raise my Alk by .25 in 15 minutes? This is my current max dose that I am delivering 4x a day. By my calculation this increases PH by ~.12 per dose.

How fast is it safe to raise Alk in a reef tank? Instantly vs say 30 minutes.

How fast is it safe to raise PH in a reef tank?
Instantly vs say 30 minutes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Per one of your other threads: "The immediate pH spike is about 0.6-0.7 pH units for each 1.4 dKH added instantly to seawater."

Is it safe to raise my Alk by .25 in 15 minutes? This is my current max dose that I am delivering 4x a day. By my calculation this increases PH by ~.12 per dose.

How fast is it safe to raise Alk in a reef tank? Instantly vs say 30 minutes.

How fast is it safe to raise PH in a reef tank?
Instantly vs say 30 minutes.

I think both of those (pH and alk from 0.25 dKH in 15 minutes by limewater) are OK. Remember that the local pH in a sump will rise even more, so high flow and high turbulence is desired there.

The limits of how fast is OK is more guesswork. I do not think the speed of alk rising is an issue in that immediate vs 30 min vs 2 his no different. With SPS corals, I wouldn't want to alter alk by more than about 0.4 dKH per day.

pH issues, IMO, have more to do with the extremes being bad than with moving around within the OK range, regardless of the rate.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

I do not care for the organic additives additives in RC. I prefer, and only used, normal IO (except once many years before this article when I ordered RC by mistake. lol)

Don't want to hijack the thread, but can you say more about this? Or point to an article or thread?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but can you say more about this? Or point to an article or thread?

Reef Crystals contains organic matter. Vitamins, for example. Also possibly an organic chelator of metals since it claims to neutralize heavy metals in tap water.

I prefer to make a large batch of salt water and use it over a period of 1-2 months. I do not want to stir or aerate it after it is made. I want it to settle clear. In still water, vitamins can be metabolized by bacteria, consuming O2 and possibly allowing production of hydrogen sulfide.

I also do not want artificial chelators binding the trace elements in my salt water and/or tank.

Since I see no other reason to prefer RC over normal IO, normal IO was the choice for me.

 

[arking_mark]

So I have some interesting results to start with.
Pre-dosing, I measured my Alk at 6.6dKH (GHL Director) and Ca at 463 (Hanna Checker).
After 2 doses of about 900ml each, my dKH has risen to 7.0 (as expected), and my pH has gotten the expected boost of about .14, but my Ca has jumped to 542ppm.

This rise in Ca makes no sense, as 1800ml of Kalkwasser should only raise up my Ca by a couple of ppm, so I'm guessing the Hanna checkers aren't as accurate as one would expect or human error. I'll rerun the test in the afternoon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I have some interesting results to start with.
Pre-dosing, I measured my Alk at 6.6dKH (GHL Director) and Ca at 463 (Hanna Checker).
After 2 doses of about 900ml each, my dKH has risen to 7.0 (as expected), and my pH has gotten the expected boost of about .14, but my Ca has jumped to 542ppm.

This rise in Ca makes no sense, as 1800ml of Kalkwasser should only raise up my Ca by a couple of ppm, so I'm guessing the Hanna checkers aren't as accurate as one would expect or human error. I'll rerun the test in the afternoon.

The Hanna calcium checker gives folks more problems than most, and it is freakishly sensitive to calcium in the blank, requiring distilled water to be sure calcium is low enough in the blank to not give false low readings in the tank sample.

 

[arking_mark]

So I have some interesting results to start with.
Pre-dosing, I measured my Alk at 6.6dKH (GHL Director) and Ca at 463 (Hanna Checker).
After 2 doses of about 900ml each, my dKH has risen to 7.0 (as expected), and my pH has gotten the expected boost of about .14, but my Ca has jumped to 542ppm.

This rise in Ca makes no sense, as 1800ml of Kalkwasser should only raise up my Ca by a couple of ppm, so I'm guessing the Hanna checkers aren't as accurate as one would expect or human error. I'll rerun the test in the afternoon.

One more thing to note is how fast the ph drops after dosing. Historically, I've been as low as 7.7 with a high of about 8. My goal for switching to kalkwasser was to nudge that up a little...keeping above 8 would be great. I'm getting about a .1 bump per dose and seeing a drop of about a consistent .01 drop per hr. Since I'm dosing 4x a day 6 hours apart, I'm seeing ~.06 swings with this dosing regime.

I may consider dosing a little slower and/or change up some automation and dose continuously...