Alkalinity not tied to Dosing!

[ScottF83]

Hello all

Sorry for yet another alkalinity thread but I'm completely baffled by some recent readings.

I recently added a large Sps colony (about 1 ft wide by 8" by 8") which you can see to the right of the attached picture.

Since then, I just cannot get the alkalinity to settle. Even with the large montipora and a bunch of Sps frags, I didn't have these drops in alkalinity.

I use the Triton Core 7 balling method and was previously dosing 40ml of a combined stage 3 (the alkalinity parts 3a and 3b). Over the past three weeks I've been cranking it up.

At 100ml, my Alkalinity was at 6.1 dKh and slowly increased over the week to 6.5 dKh. I felt that I'd found the right level and could hone it to a target of 7.0 dKh.

However, two days have passed and it's suddenly dropped to 5.9 dKh!

Calcium was 470 ppm on 25th Jan but I've stopped dosing this for a week to try and reach the equilibrium area illustrated in Randy's article.

Nitrate is flat at 0.50 ppm

Aquarium is a 6x2x2ft with around 750 liters

Test is a Hanna Checker with a new bottle of reagent

I write this thread having spent many hours reading the fabulous articles by Randy, so I'd like to think I have some grasp of the basics and advanced.

Any advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated! I'd like to get this under control before my corals are damaged by low and fluctuating alkalinity

Many thanks
Scott

 

[Flippers4pups]

I'm not going to be much help with Triton, but it sounds on the surface it's precipitating out, possibly at the time of dosing. Me personally would double check your DKH with a different test kit and see if it's way off from the hannah.

You might try using kalkwasser In your ATO top off and see if it helps.

 

[ScottF83]

I'm not going to be much help with Triton, but it sounds on the surface it's precipitating out, possibly at the time of dosing. Me personally would double check your DKH with a different test kit and see if it's way off from the hannah.

You might try using kalkwasser In your ATO top off and see if it helps.

It's just balling by another name so hopefully that doesn't put people off :)

I should've mentioned that my pH is normally between 7.9 and 8.1

And also that I had used Randy's HCl method of testing alkalinity to confirm a reading I had a week ago in an attempt to verify the large drops I've been seeing.

 

[ScottF83]

And that I measure Alk at the same time each evening which is 6pm. Lights run from 9am to 9pm with chaeto in the sump under a hydroponic LED timed to be on between 10pm and 6am

 

[Homebrewer]

If you've read all those articles, I doubt I can be of any help.

However, just curious, are you testing at the same time every day and when are the tests conducted with respect to your dosing times? Not saying that is the answer, just wondering if it could be contributing a bit to the variability.

 

[ScottF83]

If you've read all those articles, I doubt I can be of any help.

However, just curious, are you testing at the same time every day and when are the tests conducted with respect to your dosing times? Not saying that is the answer, just wondering if it could be contributing a bit to the variability.

Sorry I got in with that info as you were typing your post :)

Yes same time each evening to try and give it a fair result. A dose isn't happening at that time and I always test from the same place in the display whereas the dose happens to the sump; so should be fully mixed?

 

[Flippers4pups]

And that I measure Alk at the same time each evening which is 6pm. Lights run from 9am to 9pm with chaeto in the sump under a hydroponic LED timed to be on between 10pm and 6am

We are very similar on many points. Alk testing and chaetomorpha light schedule, just not the Triton.

I hand dose alkalinity when needed and have always used kalkwasser in my ATO reservoir. Alkalinity stays consistent at 10.5 for me.

Look into kalkwasser. Not saying to just dump it in, but do some research on it in conjunction with Triton.

 

[ScottF83]

We are very similar on many points. Alk testing and chaetomorpha light schedule, just not the Triton.

I hand dose alkalinity when needed and have always used kalkwasser in my ATO reservoir. Alkalinity stays consistent at 10.5 for me.

Look into kalkwasser. Not saying to just dump it in, but do some research on it in conjunction with Triton.

I'll definitely look into it. Not something I've ever used before.

Frustrating though as this should work! :(

 

[JPK]

I apologize if this has been addressed above or is not relevant in your situation.

I have had this issue happen to me twice for different reasons. During these issues I kept raising my alk dos with no or negative affect on actually raising my alk.

First time is when I was running triton, i discovered that the alkalinity solution had precipitated on the bottom of the reservoir for some reason, so there was a thick white shell on the bottom, however this was before the more concentrated triton core 7 system

2nd time I had been dosing alk and CA at different times, but in the same portion of my sump via a Neptune dos. The CA and Alk had still been precipitating underwater inside my sump, I found a huge while lumpy shell that covered most of the sump’s baffle.

On both of these cases, solving the precipitation issue seemed to solve my stability issues.

Hopefully this helps,

Jason

 

[ScottF83]

I apologize if this has been addressed above or is not relevant in your situation.

I have had this issue happen to me twice for different reasons. During these issues I kept raising my alk dos with no or negative affect on actually raising my alk.

First time is when I was running triton, i discovered that the alkalinity solution had precipitated on the bottom of the reservoir for some reason, so there was a thick white shell on the bottom, however this was before the more concentrated triton core 7 system

2nd time I had been dosing alk and CA at different times, but in the same portion of my sump via a Neptune dos. The CA and Alk had still been precipitating underwater inside my sump, I found a huge while lumpy shell that covered most of the sump’s baffle.

On both of these cases, solving the precipitation issue seemed to solve my stability issues.

Hopefully this helps,

Jason

That is interesting as I do find that the containers are always trying to precipitate. I bought large containers of each part purely because I was starting my new tank and wanted to remove a variable (i.e. Settle an item on my to do list!)

But yes, I find they are always crystallising and I try my best to shake these up before adding to the smaller dosing containers.

I spread my dosing out and ensure they never ever happen at the same time, and I'm not actually dosing calcium or magnesium at the moment to try and achieve an equilibrium.

The dosing containers are only a liter each so they stay as fresh as possible and don't appear to be precipitating... And nothing in the sump...

That said, you've planted a seed of doubt in my mind as to the actual concentration of additive making it into the sump!

 

[TMB]

My advice is to not worry too much about small changes in alkalinity. Your Alk only changed a few 1oths over a week and your last dosing adjustment was to increase by 25%?!?! You're likely heading for a crash by making drastic changes (just my opinion).
An easy way to find your baseline is to set your doser to say 100ml (I'm assuming your auto dosing), and then hand dose daily a tiny bit if you feel an adjustment is really necessary. then after a trend is established, go ahead and adjust the auto dosed quantity.
Also, you should not be using your auto dossing to raise your levels. Instead set a base dose, and hand dose over a few days to your desired levels. It's perfectly ok to dose just Alk, or just Calcium to adjust either to where you want, then you can go back to balanced dosing.
Once you find your baseline number, it should get easier.
Also, remember that you added a huge colony/consumer, it would be expected that consumption will increase. I know you know that, just reminding you to be patient, and not get to acting too fast. Alk of 6 or even 5.x will not hurt your SPS. Fast changes will.

 

[ScottF83]

My advice is to not worry too much about small changes in alkalinity. Your Alk only changed a few 1oths over a week and your last dosing adjustment was to increase by 25%?!?! You're likely heading for a crash by making drastic changes (just my opinion).
An easy way to find your baseline is to set your doser to say 100ml (I'm assuming your auto dosing), and then hand dose daily a tiny bit if you feel an adjustment is really necessary. then after a trend is established, go ahead and adjust the auto dosed quantity.
Also, you should not be using your auto dossing to raise your levels. Instead set a base dose, and hand dose over a few days to your desired levels. It's perfectly ok to dose just Alk, or just Calcium to adjust either to where you want, then you can go back to balanced dosing.
Once you find your baseline number, it should get easier.
Also, remember that you added a huge colony/consumer, it would be expected that consumption will increase. I know you know that, just reminding you to be patient, and not get to acting too fast. Alk of 6 or even 5.x will not hurt your SPS. Fast changes will.

Yes that was my main worry. The alkalinity getting so low to cause damage. And the large increases came from not at all knowing my new baseline and seeing increases having no effect (I had small increases in prior weeks cut off in the screenshot).

My thought process was to find a level on the doser whereby the alkalinity rises slowly to the target; the scales having been tipped slightly into net increase. Thereby avoiding large additions and increases.

I thought I had cracked it :)

On reflection, that is a large increase... I've literally just changed it tonight (I'm in London and UK time).

I'll set it back to 100ml until I've read all the advice here.

What is the absolute minimum dKh to accept during this tuning in?

 

[Stigigemla]

When something is strange about the tank its best to check the values.
Temperature.
Salinity. Is Your refractometer calibrated?
KH.
Ca.
Mg. Magnesium has a role in making it possible to have such high Ca and kH value. If the Magnesium is to low they will precipitate.

 

[ScottF83]

When something is strange about the tank its best to check the values.
Temperature.
Salinity. Is Your refractometer calibrated?
KH.
Ca.
Mg. Magnesium has a role in making it possible to have such high Ca and kH value. If the Magnesium is to low they will precipitate.

Temp and Salinity are via Profilux which was calibrated two weeks ago. The temperature is rock solid at 25c, and salinity is 1.0259.

Kh as shown via Hanna but verified via HCl method and a new vial of reagent.

Ca tested by Triton as 477 ppm on 18th Jan and by me via hanna Checker as 470 ppm on 25th Jan

Mg tested by Triton as 1546 ppm on 18th Jan

 

[TMB]

I hope I didn't come off harsh in my first reply. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

I've seen numbers lower than 5.5, and although I do not recommend that, don't let it cause panic.
You should not be trying to use the dosser to raise the levels, that's a sure recipe to over shoot the number and have a spike.
Instead, just leave your 100-110 number in there and hand dose like 10 or 20 ML per day until you reach your desired levels.
You can also use a reef calculator like this -http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html to help you decide the hand dose amount.
I know the Core7 is not there, but I bet using the B-ionic number will be close.

 

[TMB]

Not sure why that didn't come up as a link, hopefully this works for you.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

 

[ScottF83]

No dosing happened in the time between my setting it to 125ml and reducing back to 100ml. So it's back to the 100ml it has been this week.

From suggestion above about white precipitate lumps, I checked sump and it's clear. However, the dosing container had a layer of white snow on the bottom!

I've now mixed this up and will test daily to see if this has a positive effect.

How can I stop this happening in the container?

Dosing happens four times a day at 1am, 6am, 1pm and 6pm

 

[ScottF83]

I hope I didn't come off harsh in my first reply. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

I've seen numbers lower than 5.5, and although I do not recommend that, don't let it cause panic.
You should not be trying to use the dosser to raise the levels, that's a sure recipe to over shoot the number and have a spike.
Instead, just leave your 100-110 number in there and hand dose like 10 or 20 ML per day until you reach your desired levels.
You can also use a reef calculator like this -http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html to help you decide the hand dose amount.
I know the Core7 is not there, but I bet using the B-ionic number will be close.

Absolutely not, I appreciate your time and input

As above, I have returned it to 100ml where I had it previously and have stirred up the container. Seems I do have a precipitation problem in there.

Thank you for the link, will try it now

 

[ScottF83]

I had seen this calculator before during my readings of Randy's articles :) I just didn't know which product to choose

Assuming I've chosen the correct b-ionic equivalent, it's suggesting just 5ml more than my current.

Though with a pinch of salt as we're not sure of the exact equivalent

I'll keep at the 100ml level for a few days and let you guys know the results.

I really do appreciate your inputs, everyone.

Any advice on stopping it precipitating within the container greatly received!

 

[TMB]

You can safely raise the level of Alk by 1 DKH per day. I don't like moving it that much and would shoot for increasing it by .5 per day.
After thinking about it some, I would also just use a product with a known value to raise Alk, such as baking soda.
If you leave your dosser where it is and use the calculator, it says you would use 22.5 grams of baking soda to raise your Alk by 1 DKH.
Cut that in half and 11 grams should be a safe addition in 1 day, and should land you around 6.5 DKH.
Continue adding the 11 grams until you get to where you wan to be.