Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would it be feasible to alter a Kalk mix say with something to bump the alkalinity to offset this a bit @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

You could with a little bit of sodium acetate, or if you are willing to take a small hit to calcium potency, sodium hydroxide.

 

[Lasse]

I am not sure if we will see a growth benefit of pH stability @ 8.3 but we have another extremely stable system which is also in peak health @ 8.1 ph so it will be nice to see how both compare to eachother over a longer period of time.

This is interesting because after have seen a lot of reef aquariums - my gut says me that around 8.1-8.15 is the optimal value

Sincerely Lasse

 

[R33f_Hacker]

Hi everyone,
@Lasse I read that you are using the triton core 7 base elements. How do you like it? I have been using Red Sea foundation abc and trace elements. Looking to make a change. Any suggestions are appreciated. 160g system Ftl and frag. My dosing seems very high 270ml a day of alk just to keep it at 8.8 ish. No ph problems at all 8.1 in am 8.3 night. Dosing is spread out throughout the day

thanks!

 

[Lasse]

I have run full Triton now for nearly 5 years- What I think about it? The answer is - I have not changed and will not change in the future - it works for me - but remember - no car is better than its driver.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[R33f_Hacker]

Thanks, I am with you on that. So would the base elements cover the same as foundation and trace colors from red sea? I cldnt find documentation on the elements

 

[Lasse]

The base elements contain som traces of other substances but the method does not contain any mixed substances. Instead is build on no WC and regular ICP tests. After the result of the ICP test - you dose singular substances instead for a mix - like colour a-c as an example. This was the reason why I chose Triton when I started my new aquarium 6 years ago, The one I had before crashed mostly because that the consumption of traces did not match the mixed substances I dose to that aquarium. I did an overdose of iodine and potassium that killed most of my fishes.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

Related to this thread @Randy Holmes-Farley would love to hear your take on the chemistry points discussed, as it relates to this discussion. ReefDudes convo last Friday night around this very topic starts around 19:00. (If you think this would be better on its own thread, my appologies and I'll move) Thx

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure his pH calibration is correct (maybe, maybe not), and the drawback to pH above 8.6 or so is that abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on pumps, heaters, etc. At his "highest pH of 8.96" (if accurate), I think that magnesium hydroxide may begin to precipitate.

But I certainly think high pH is a fine thing to explore just like high alk.

His comments about excretion of H+ are basically correct, if corals actually use bicarbonate and not carbonate .

 

[ReefChasers]

A promised update 3 months later:

So the topic of slamming kalkwasser into the system to stabilize and raise pH has been talked a lot about lately in this thread and elsewhere and after employing such a strategy for the past 6 months I feel the need to post some updates!

First of all -- does the strategy work??? Yes it certainly does! Things seem to respond well to elevated levels of alk and calcium as we all know and increased pH leads to fast growth.

HOWEVER -- there is such a thing as "too much". Talk about people running 8.5-8.7 pH is crazy. In my experience its not even very good for the aquarium overall. Let me say that I do not mean it will hurt the livestock, its just that at such a high level of super saturation precipitation does become a major issue.

Precipitation can have deleterious effects on coral health. Mainly a build up of heavy "debris" that arnt so easily taken away by flow makers. These debris build up on frag plugs, around the base of the corals or in some cases directly on top. The debris trap additional organics and detritus and overall this will hurt the health and perterb growth in my experience.

So, we decided at this point that the saturation level of the water (9dkh 450 calcium 8.4 pH) was good but not great because it was simply too high).


We began a strategy to back off the Kalkwasser a bit and bring the Calcium and Alk down (aiming for 8.4 dkh 410 calcium 8.2 ph). This involved getting a Calcium Reactor in the equation (we have had the calcium reactor for our 1200 gal acropora system since we began but it wasnt being used much due to the pH drawbacks).

It took a few weeks to ease the numbers down. The calcium reactor even running at very low (40 liters per day out of a possible 350L) certainly put a dent in the pH and hurt a little of our stability.

Now our pH swings a bit more than 0.1 (more like 0.15 now) so our daily is looking like 8.2 min 8.35 max

Our calcium has come down to around 410 and alk dkh is fluctuating around 8.5 min to 9 max.

It seems now that the system is happier than ever. Corals are looking very well, growth is nice and most importantly the precipitation debris issue has been resolved!

So i guess I am finding for our tanks that sometimes less is more and the people who are saying "just pump kalk who cares about the numbers" are frankly off base IMO. It is a crude strategy and it does work to some extent (for example if you cant keep any corals alive then it might be a place for you start) but its not ideal.

Dialing in the numbers to hold a just "slightly elevated" dkh/ca and a natural pH seems to be the best results overall.

A lot of science out there does suggest more dkh and more ca is "good" but i dont know that they have really examined when high is too high or at what point the negatives outweigh the positives. Randy has certainly given us a lot of great info over the years about super saturation and precipitation and I advise everyone to read and re read those articles and remember 8 points of calcium is more than you think it is!

Our averages for this week are 8.19 low and 8.36 high around 8.25 average pH. Our alk is 8.5-9 and calcium lower at 410 -- so far this has been our best result yet. (Even tho we had more stable pH at a higher number previously).



Our biggest improvement overall came from raising our tank temps to 82 degrees rather then all this other stuff. We used to run it at 78 which sometimes was more like 76. I am a firm believer in the increased temps and its the easiest change we made that had the most positive results.

There is also a scientific study I read recently which suggests (but does not prove) that increased temperature helps to relieve stresses related to pH swings. Average temp in study was 82min 84high and this was the natural temps of the water where the acropora was collected.

There could be other factors at play which would halt precipitation such as increased nutrients, increased magnesium or other unknowns so each system may be pretty unique in this regard but you'll know the problem when you see it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the update!

 

[Biologic]

A promised update 3 months later:

So the topic of slamming kalkwasser into the system to stabilize and raise pH has been talked a lot about lately in this thread and elsewhere and after employing such a strategy for the past 6 months I feel the need to post some updates!

First of all -- does the strategy work??? Yes it certainly does! Things seem to respond well to elevated levels of alk and calcium as we all know and increased pH leads to fast growth.

HOWEVER -- there is such a thing as "too much". Talk about people running 8.5-8.7 pH is crazy. In my experience its not even very good for the aquarium overall. Let me say that I do not mean it will hurt the livestock, its just that at such a high level of super saturation precipitation does become a major issue.

Precipitation can have deleterious effects on coral health. Mainly a build up of heavy "debris" that arnt so easily taken away by flow makers. These debris build up on frag plugs, around the base of the corals or in some cases directly on top. The debris trap additional organics and detritus and overall this will hurt the health and perterb growth in my experience.

So, we decided at this point that the saturation level of the water (9dkh 450 calcium 8.4 pH) was good but not great because it was simply too high).


We began a strategy to back off the Kalkwasser a bit and bring the Calcium and Alk down (aiming for 8.4 dkh 410 calcium 8.2 ph). This involved getting a Calcium Reactor in the equation (we have had the calcium reactor for our 1200 gal acropora system since we began but it wasnt being used much due to the pH drawbacks).

It took a few weeks to ease the numbers down. The calcium reactor even running at very low (40 liters per day out of a possible 350L) certainly put a dent in the pH and hurt a little of our stability.

Now our pH swings a bit more than 0.1 (more like 0.15 now) so our daily is looking like 8.2 min 8.35 max

Our calcium has come down to around 410 and alk dkh is fluctuating around 8.5 min to 9 max.

It seems now that the system is happier than ever. Corals are looking very well, growth is nice and most importantly the precipitation debris issue has been resolved!

So i guess I am finding for our tanks that sometimes less is more and the people who are saying "just pump kalk who cares about the numbers" are frankly off base IMO. It is a crude strategy and it does work to some extent (for example if you cant keep any corals alive then it might be a place for you start) but its not ideal.

Dialing in the numbers to hold a just "slightly elevated" dkh/ca and a natural pH seems to be the best results overall.

A lot of science out there does suggest more dkh and more ca is "good" but i dont know that they have really examined when high is too high or at what point the negatives outweigh the positives. Randy has certainly given us a lot of great info over the years about super saturation and precipitation and I advise everyone to read and re read those articles and remember 8 points of calcium is more than you think it is!

Our averages for this week are 8.19 low and 8.36 high around 8.25 average pH. Our alk is 8.5-9 and calcium lower at 410 -- so far this has been our best result yet. (Even tho we had more stable pH at a higher number previously).



Our biggest improvement overall came from raising our tank temps to 82 degrees rather then all this other stuff. We used to run it at 78 which sometimes was more like 76. I am a firm believer in the increased temps and its the easiest change we made that had the most positive results.

There is also a scientific study I read recently which suggests (but does not prove) that increased temperature helps to relieve stresses related to pH swings. Average temp in study was 82min 84high and this was the natural temps of the water where the acropora was collected.

There could be other factors at play which would halt precipitation such as increased nutrients, increased magnesium or other unknowns so each system may be pretty unique in this regard but you'll know the problem when you see it.

Independently, I’ve been doing the same thing. Even the temperature!

I am dosing saturated kalkwasser via Neptune DOS. 2000 mL for a 24 hour period, set to turn off if pH is greater than 8.25. It usually starts dosing at 8 PM and turns off at 8 AM. My lights turn on 6:30 AM slowly ramp up ramp down turn off at 7 PM. This results in the lights influencing the pH and usually only 1500 to 2000 mL of saturated kalkwasser is dosed to my 50 gallon system water.

pH- My high and low depending on my CO2 in my home is usually 8.2 and runs up to 8.37 depending how much micro algae I have on the glass, which i find drives pH. pH is driven down by atmospheric CO2. At certain points when my house hold CO2 on is above 700 ppm, the kalkwasser dosage I use cannot overcome the effect on pH. I have skimmer pulling air from outside. Still my pH can drop on these high CO2 days to 8.15.

Alkalinity and calcium — I noticed my alkalinity jumped from average 8.3 to average 10.2 dKH. Now that it’s stabilized at 10.2 (measured at 3 PM everyday) I decided to measure at 9 AM, 1 hour later after the kalkwasser is no longer dosing, it is at 10.6. So there is at least .4 dKH swing daily from morning to afternoon. I find my Calcium runs very high 500 ppmwhich is the only thing I am dissatisfied with this method.

Temperature— I too am running my temperature higher, not for increased metabolism for higher growth, to acclimate the corals to the hurricane season. I post my reasoning here . My temperature has slowly increased from 79 in May to 83.6 today.

Growth and color — definitely a bit faster. I’ve taken progress pics and it certainly has not slowed down. I don’t have any trouble with color.

My thoughts-

It’s definitely cheap way going about caring for a tank. I do have to replace the 5 gallons of kalkwasser every Sunday. The main issue is volume wise CaCl and NaCO3 2 part solutions are more efficient gram per gram and volume for liquid. It’s nice that you only need one dosing head. It’s not easy to dose either or calcium and alkalinity independently. It doesn’t address trace elements like a Balling program can. I am dosing trace elements independently via a small addition daily where as balling can do those automatically. I am not sure if I will move to a balling program, but I would never start a tank without kalkwasser. It’s just so economical and easy.

 

[ReefChasers]

Independently, I’ve been doing the same thing. Even the temperature!

I am dosing saturated kalkwasser via Neptune DOS. 2000 mL for a 24 hour period, set to turn off if pH is greater than 8.25. It usually starts dosing at 8 PM and turns off at 8 AM. My lights turn on 6:30 AM slowly ramp up ramp down turn off at 7 PM. This results in the lights influencing the pH and usually only 1500 to 2000 mL of saturated kalkwasser is dosed to my 50 gallon system water.

pH- My high and low depending on my CO2 in my home is usually 8.2 and runs up to 8.37 depending how much micro algae I have on the glass, which i find drives pH.

Alkalinity and calcium — I noticed my alkalinity jumped from average 8.3 to average 10.2 dKH. Now that it’s stabilized at 10.2 (measured at 3 PM everyday) I decided to measure at 9 AM, 1 hour later after the kalkwasser is no longer dosing, it is at 10.6. So there is at least .4 dKH swing daily from morning to afternoon. I find my Calcium runs very high 500 ppmwhich is the only thing I am dissatisfied with this method.

Photosynthesis in general drives the pH up and definitely Algae will be the most aggressive driver this is why tanks with an algae problem tend to also have more exaggerated daytime/nightime pH swings. I think its better to combat the algae and let the ph swing shrink to try and achieve better pH stability.

A 0.5 dkh swing from "fresh off the nightime kalkwasser dose" to "lights out" is to be expected when employing this strategy. Corals do most of their growing by day. Its actually a great sign of alkalinity consumption in your system and a sign that things are growing and consuming. Would not stress at all about a 0.5 dkh daily flux when employing this strategy.

I think 500 ppm CA and 10.2 alk with 8.3 ph is very saturated water but will be difficult to correct without 2 part (back off kalk quite a bit, supplement alk with soda ash), let calcium fall. I would only do that slowly in a controlled fashion and let your tank speak to you. If things are looking great I wouldnt even make any changes. Only if you still see room for improvements should you tinker!

What do you keep the nutrients at?

 

[Biologic]

Photosynthesis in general drives the pH up and definitely Algae will be the most aggressive driver this is why tanks with an algae problem tend to also have more exaggerated daytime/nightime pH swings. I think its better to combat the algae and let the ph swing shrink to try and achieve better pH stability.

A 0.5 dkh swing from "fresh off the nightime kalkwasser dose" to "lights out" is to be expected when employing this strategy. Corals do most of their growing by day. Its actually a great sign of alkalinity consumption in your system and a sign that things are growing and consuming. Would not stress at all about a 0.5 dkh daily flux when employing this strategy.

I think 500 ppm CA and 10.2 alk with 8.3 ph is very saturated water but will be difficult to correct without 2 part (back off kalk quite a bit, supplement alk with soda ash), let calcium fall. I would only do that slowly in a controlled fashion and let your tank speak to you. If things are looking great I wouldnt even make any changes. Only if you still see room for improvements should you tinker!

What do you keep the nutrients at?

pH swing -- That is a good thought on the algae. I will try it out to see if that smooths the graph a bit. I run a bare bottom tank and run my pumps at 100% through out the day with some variability in the pattern. I turn them off at night so my urchins can go eat unencumbered. I am not going to stress on this too much. I will get some more urchins and snails. I actually have no snails lol.

ALK swing -- So yes that 0.4 to 0.5 swing is from 9 AM to 3 PM daily. I am thinking about dosing in something to flatten that curve a bit. I thought about using Calcium Formate -- All For Reef -- the thinking it takes 24 hours (in theory) to show up as alkalinity, dosing it in for the photo period today, allows it to be available tomorrow.

High calcium -- I think this was more of a product of "getting there" than actually the method being inherently high in calcium for me personally. I thought about doing what your suggesting, just dosing in Sodium Carbonate for a few days to drop the calcium. But I am nervous to do anything lol. I went from All For Reef to this Kalkwasser Method and that was nerve racking. Not sure how I would do it.

According to this website --https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/KalkContribution.php I have about a 1 dKH contribution from kalkwasser. So I would assume to dose in equivalent amount of sodium carbonate?

Nutrients -- my phosphates have been stable since I (re)-started this tank in February. Consistently 0.07 to 0.1 ppm. Nitrates have been a different story. Consistently zero. So I have been really aggressively feeding more, which I find only drives my phosphates. I added amino acids, but I sort of feel they are wasteful. I need to add more fish really -- damsels likely. I've added in NeoNitro into the mix, which that's help boost NO3 to 10 ppm. Hopefully I will see some benefit to keeping higher nutrients.

Trace Elements -- I am just doing 10% water changes weekly. Sometimes 20% depending on how I feel. I dose in 1 drop of SeaChem Iodine daily. I recently got some AF Trace E which are mostly heavier elements. I dose that daily. I have a base line ICP before I started that so interested to see where that's going to go. My RR Pink Cadillac Stag is turning greenish lol. But is growing very fast.

 

[ReefChasers]

With the soda ash I would just start slow and ramp it up slowly while ramping down kalkwasser just enough so that alk and calcium are dropping slightly each day. Your minimal soda ash dose will replace the lost alk but not the calcium so gradually over time it should slide nicely to your target. Thats the best way so its a slow gradual shift towards a lower calcium reading and not taking much away from the kalkwasser/nice pH effects.

You will definitely see a boost to your tank if you keep the nitrates right around 10 IME. Sounds like you are on the right track with everything!

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

A promised update 3 months later:

So the topic of slamming kalkwasser into the system to stabilize and raise pH has been talked a lot about lately in this thread and elsewhere and after employing such a strategy for the past 6 months I feel the need to post some updates!

First of all -- does the strategy work??? Yes it certainly does! Things seem to respond well to elevated levels of alk and calcium as we all know and increased pH leads to fast growth.

HOWEVER -- there is such a thing as "too much". Talk about people running 8.5-8.7 pH is crazy. In my experience its not even very good for the aquarium overall. Let me say that I do not mean it will hurt the livestock, its just that at such a high level of super saturation precipitation does become a major issue.

Precipitation can have deleterious effects on coral health. Mainly a build up of heavy "debris" that arnt so easily taken away by flow makers. These debris build up on frag plugs, around the base of the corals or in some cases directly on top. The debris trap additional organics and detritus and overall this will hurt the health and perterb growth in my experience.

So, we decided at this point that the saturation level of the water (9dkh 450 calcium 8.4 pH) was good but not great because it was simply too high).


We began a strategy to back off the Kalkwasser a bit and bring the Calcium and Alk down (aiming for 8.4 dkh 410 calcium 8.2 ph). This involved getting a Calcium Reactor in the equation (we have had the calcium reactor for our 1200 gal acropora system since we began but it wasnt being used much due to the pH drawbacks).

It took a few weeks to ease the numbers down. The calcium reactor even running at very low (40 liters per day out of a possible 350L) certainly put a dent in the pH and hurt a little of our stability.

Now our pH swings a bit more than 0.1 (more like 0.15 now) so our daily is looking like 8.2 min 8.35 max

Our calcium has come down to around 410 and alk dkh is fluctuating around 8.5 min to 9 max.

It seems now that the system is happier than ever. Corals are looking very well, growth is nice and most importantly the precipitation debris issue has been resolved!

So i guess I am finding for our tanks that sometimes less is more and the people who are saying "just pump kalk who cares about the numbers" are frankly off base IMO. It is a crude strategy and it does work to some extent (for example if you cant keep any corals alive then it might be a place for you start) but its not ideal.

Dialing in the numbers to hold a just "slightly elevated" dkh/ca and a natural pH seems to be the best results overall.

A lot of science out there does suggest more dkh and more ca is "good" but i dont know that they have really examined when high is too high or at what point the negatives outweigh the positives. Randy has certainly given us a lot of great info over the years about super saturation and precipitation and I advise everyone to read and re read those articles and remember 8 points of calcium is more than you think it is!

Our averages for this week are 8.19 low and 8.36 high around 8.25 average pH. Our alk is 8.5-9 and calcium lower at 410 -- so far this has been our best result yet. (Even tho we had more stable pH at a higher number previously).



Our biggest improvement overall came from raising our tank temps to 82 degrees rather then all this other stuff. We used to run it at 78 which sometimes was more like 76. I am a firm believer in the increased temps and its the easiest change we made that had the most positive results.

There is also a scientific study I read recently which suggests (but does not prove) that increased temperature helps to relieve stresses related to pH swings. Average temp in study was 82min 84high and this was the natural temps of the water where the acropora was collected.

There could be other factors at play which would halt precipitation such as increased nutrients, increased magnesium or other unknowns so each system may be pretty unique in this regard but you'll know the problem when you see it.

Very interesting reading...and to be honest...quite confusing. Maybe I just dont understand enough about basic chemistry. I keep fearing that if I pump too much Kalk into my system to stabilize the PH that my Alkalinity would go outside of the reasonable range. Am I thinking about this the wrong way? I keep equating dosing Alk to something along the lines of total dissolved solids and Alk goes up so does the TDS (and not just correlative by directly because of). As such, to get my alkalinity to a predetermine level..i have to ensure that my total dissolved solids (of Kalk) are at a certain level. Too many TDS...too high of Alk. Is that thinking about it the wrong way? By adding acid to bring down the Alk, does this also drop the total dissolved solids in the tank? If it wasnt for oxygenation raising PH but not alkalinity, I could wrap my head around this.

Or in a more simple terms....will dosing Kalk to maintain PH cause your alkalinity (and Calcium) to rise unacceptably?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting reading...and to be honest...quite confusing. Maybe I just dont understand enough about basic chemistry. I keep fearing that if I pump too much Kalk into my system to stabilize the PH that my Alkalinity would go outside of the reasonable range.

That will certainly happen to many folks. To some extent there are negative feedback loops that prevent alk from getting endlessly high (such as precipitation of calcium carbonate at high alk and pH), but they are not painless if happening too much.

What exactly happens in iny given system with lots of kalkwasser dosing will be3 determined by many things, including the availability of CO2 to the system and the demand for alk. More home air CO2 will allow alk to rise more for a given pH boost.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

That will certainly happen to many folks. To some extent there are negative feedback loops that prevent alk from getting endlessly high (such as precipitation of calcium carbonate at high alk and pH), but they are not painless if happening too much.

What exactly happens in iny given system with lots of kalkwasser dosing will be3 determined by many things, including the availability of CO2 to the system and the demand for alk. More home air CO2 will allow alk to rise more for a given pH boost.

Thank you for the response. So if I am reading this correctly, the more CO2 in the air, the more the alkalinity will rise keeping the PH suppressed a little? That would make sense why I have had higher alkalinity but lower PH because I have a small office and the CO2 is probably concentrated.

I am all but giving up on higher PH. I have an outside line into my skimmer and my overflow but my PH still drops down to almost 7.6 on bad days at night and rarely hits above 8 during the week while I am in the office a lot. Sounds like my situation, Kalk for PH stabilization is not a possibility. The only thing left is a longer display tank light schedule.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for the response. So if I am reading this correctly, the more CO2 in the air, the more the alkalinity will rise keeping the PH suppressed a little? That would make sense why I have had higher alkalinity but lower PH because I have a small office and the CO2 is probably concentrated.

I am all but giving up on higher PH. I have an outside line into my skimmer and my overflow but my PH still drops down to almost 7.6 on bad days at night and rarely hits above 8 during the week while I am in the office a lot. Sounds like my situation, Kalk for PH stabilization is not a possibility. The only thing left is a longer display tank light schedule.

What I meant was that at higher ambient CO2, more kalkwasser can be added without the pH getting as high, so the alk can rise higher.

For example, with enough CO2 in the air, you might never even get to pH 8.2 (lots of folks are in this situation), and alk might get quite high if demand is not consuming it.

Don't be misled by examples where people have so much alk demand that they even use other addition methods asc well.

The idea that one can add large amounts of kalkwasser without alk getting excessively high only applies in specific scenarios. It is not a general principle, and many folks misunderstand this.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

The idea that one can add large amounts of kalkwasser without alk getting excessively high only applies in specific scenarios. It is not a general principle, and many folks misunderstand this.

You actually hit the concern. i was poorly trying to articulate..my alk getting too high. Seems like this is a legitimate concern and in a high CO2 environments, Kalk dosing for PH balance can lead to high Alk. Thanks!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You actually hit the concern. i was poorly trying to articulate..my alk getting too high. Seems like this is a legitimate concern and in a high CO2 environments, Kalk dosing for PH balance can lead to high Alk. Thanks!!

Yes, that's why folks look to other methods as well, such as CO2 scrubbers, HRV system for room air, skimmer inlet piped outside, etc.

Good luck!