All for Reef Problems - Dosing and increases

liam31

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Hello, I am using a Kamoer X1 pump that I set up a few weeks ago. I followed the instructions removed the air and calibrated it. I wanted to use All for reef to maintain my KH, Calc and Mag.

Current Levels:
Tank Size 140 litres
Kh 10 - Hanna DkH Checker
Calcium 420
Magnesium between 1350 - 1400 (Hard to tell)
Salinity 1.0245
Phos 0.3 (Working on it)
Nitrates 3 - 5 ppm
PH between 7.9 - 8.1 (Apex)



Tank size is 140 litres with a collection of LPS, and Mainly Zoa's with a few small SPS frags. (Nothing major) I am currently dosing into my return area in my sump. Not sure about sump turnover (Could this be a problem? As It doesn't really look like a high flow area).

After testing each day I found my KH drops via Hanna Checker by 0.3 dkh per day this was for 3 days tested at the same time each day. So according to the calculator for all for reef i need to use 7ml per day to achieve 0.3 dkh?


I started a few weeks ago as a test to dose 7ml per day split in-to 6 doses throughout the day. Tested after 24 hours. Kh was the same 8 tested after 24 hours 8.1 then I suddenly get a bump to around 9 after a few days even if I drop the dosage to 3ml per day (As I noticed it rising) it just keeps rising and within a week I am at 10 or 11 even at a low of 2ml per day. So for now I have the doser turned off (Has been for a couple of weeks). If I use the red sea liquid at the required dose once a day the all raises the 0.3ml it needs and stays the same.


I am really unsure what is happening at this moment I thought I could keep a stable KH Level. I have used both the red sea KH test and Hanna checker and get around the same results. Even brought new reagents etc.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hope this makes sense.
 

arking_mark

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Hello, I am using a Kamoer X1 pump that I set up a few weeks ago. I followed the instructions removed the air and calibrated it. I wanted to use All for reef to maintain my KH, Calc and Mag.

Current Levels:
Tank Size 140 litres
Kh 10 - Hanna DkH Checker
Calcium 420
Magnesium between 1350 - 1400 (Hard to tell)
Salinity 1.0245
Phos 0.3 (Working on it)
Nitrates 3 - 5 ppm
PH between 7.9 - 8.1 (Apex)



Tank size is 140 litres with a collection of LPS, and Mainly Zoa's with a few small SPS frags. (Nothing major) I am currently dosing into my return area in my sump. Not sure about sump turnover (Could this be a problem? As It doesn't really look like a high flow area).

After testing each day I found my KH drops via Hanna Checker by 0.3 dkh per day this was for 3 days tested at the same time each day. So according to the calculator for all for reef i need to use 7ml per day to achieve 0.3 dkh?


I started a few weeks ago as a test to dose 7ml per day split in-to 6 doses throughout the day. Tested after 24 hours. Kh was the same 8 tested after 24 hours 8.1 then I suddenly get a bump to around 9 after a few days even if I drop the dosage to 3ml per day (As I noticed it rising) it just keeps rising and within a week I am at 10 or 11 even at a low of 2ml per day. So for now I have the doser turned off (Has been for a couple of weeks). If I use the red sea liquid at the required dose once a day the all raises the 0.3ml it needs and stays the same.


I am really unsure what is happening at this moment I thought I could keep a stable KH Level. I have used both the red sea KH test and Hanna checker and get around the same results. Even brought new reagents etc.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hope this makes sense.

My experience with AFR was not very smooth. However, I'm almost comfortable using AFR and may be close to automating dKH control with it.

Like you, I started with a small dosage to supplement 0.1 dKH daily loss above of my Kalkwasser dosing. Within about 2 days, I got an unexpected dKH spike. I attributed this to some effect that AFR has on abiotic precipitation or coral uptake.

I ended up stopping AFR and then restarting it at 1ml or about 0.014 dKH. I then slowly raised it while maintaining my dKH with 3-part. I'm now at the point where I'm no longer using 3-part. My AFR dosing is now at 0.3dKH (21ml) and I'm experimenting with AFR for adjustments.
 

Hooz

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I started with the recommended dose. I didn't see anything the first 24 hours, then, like you, I started seeing a spike at the 48 hour mark. I did a water change, let it level out for several days, then started again at half the recommended dose, tweaking until I got it dialed in.

What I found with AfR is that it's important to maintain the dose for 3-4 days (testing daily) before making any changes. The "slow release" alk takes a while to show up.
 
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So how DO you get AFR dialed in? Is it just starting at a lower dose and waiting a week before adjusting, or how does it work?
 

arking_mark

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So how DO you get AFR dialed in? Is it just starting at a lower dose and waiting a week before adjusting, or how does it work?

From previous post...

I ended up stopping AFR and then restarting it at 1ml or about 0.014 dKH. I then slowly raised it while maintaining my dKH with 3-part. I'm now at the point where I'm no longer using 3-part. My AFR dosing is now at 0.3dKH (21ml) and I'm experimenting with AFR for adjustments.
 

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From previous post...
You said you "slowly raised it." I was wondering what that looked like. How long did you keep it at 1ml before raising? How did you determine how much to raise it? etc.
 

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Michael FitzMaurice

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Why is that? Is testing Ca or something else a better indicator? How do you suggest dialing this in?
Lou from Tropic Marine instructed me to use calcium as the monitor for how much to use. Then if additional ALK is needed I add Balling part B. Im still working on stabilizing things but Ive been adding corals so its difficult to get things perfect right now.
 

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All For Reef is very good and I’ve been using it for three years or so now. What is important to know is that it is metabolized by some bacteria that results in alkalinity. It can take several days for these bacteria to develop fully in your tank. It is better to track calcium at first even though this is less sensitive. Once you your biota is stable you can then measure all and it is fine.
I dose Calcium hydroxide and all for reef and make minor adjustments to All For Reef to maintain my all and it works fine. Be patient with your system and you will get there but do it slowly at first.
28E02B5C-2695-444B-8BE6-29E4A1E5BF65.jpeg
 

arking_mark

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Why is that? Is testing Ca or something else a better indicator? How do you suggest dialing this in?

That's the challenge with Calcium Formate (AFR). It requires a biological process to convert to Alk. Per TM, it can even be used without being converted. This process will be different for each tank.

Using Ca to control dosing is impractical as our test kits aren't accurate enough. I've estimated Hanna to be +/- 20ppm and Apex Trident is +/- 15ppm. Since 7ppm Ca ~ 1 dKH, using Ca could result in 2 - 3 dKH swings just based on the imprecise Ca measurements.
 

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So how DO you get AFR dialed in? Is it just starting at a lower dose and waiting a week before adjusting, or how does it work?


I have dosed a total of about a gallon into my tank. Tropic Marin recommends calcium tests. I used a combination of that and alk testing after doing some quick math from the amount tropic marin says will raise KH by x and calcium by y. I already knew how much calcium and alk I use on a daily basis do I used those numbers to figure out the dose.
 

arking_mark

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That's the challenge with Calcium Formate (AFR). It requires a biological process to convert to Alk. Per TM, it can even be used without being converted. This process will be different for each tank.

Using Ca to control dosing is impractical as our test kits aren't accurate enough. I've estimated the precision of Hanna to be +/- 20ppm and Apex Trident is +/- 15ppm. Since 7ppm Ca ~ 1 dKH, using Ca could result in 2 - 3 dKH swings just based on the imprecise Ca measurements.

Example of how Ca is impractical for dosing control.

Let's say your tank is right where you want it @ 8 dKH and 420ppm Ca. Lets also assume your tank is consuming 0.5 dKH (unbeknownst to you) per day and your using a Trident to measure Alk (+/- 0.05 dKH) and Ca (+/- 15 ppm).

Day 0: Trident was perfect! 8 dKH; 420ppm
Day 1: Apex readings of 7.45 - 7.55 dKH; 402 - 432 ppm; you dose AFR based Ca and add 18 - 0 worth of AFR; if you added 18 ppm worth of AFR, you would see your Alk rising above your target by 14 ppm worth of Ca or 2 dKH at some point. Had you used Alk...no issues as Ca swings would be less than 1 ppm.
Day 2: Based on day 1 AFR dose; Unknown amout of AFR converted; Apex reading of 6.90 to 9.05 dKH; 398 - 428 ppm; once again if you use Ca to dose, your dosing 22 - 0 ppm worth of AFR and potentially overdosing again...
 
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Took me about a week to start seeing solid numbers. Started at 15 ml and once I could measure what it was doing I kept upping the dose and waiting. After about 3 weeks and testing alk every day I got to 35ml and everything balanced out. My alk and cal and mg are rock solid at 9,460,1450. It has stayed roughly the same for the last year. I love it!! Typically if my alk is dialed in everything else is too. I did have to supplement alk drop with 2 part until I found the happy place. Great stuff and definitely my secret sauce for stability
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Typically if my alk is dialed in everything else is too. I did have to supplement alk drop with 2 part until I found the happy place. Great stuff and definitely my secret sauce for stability

Curious as to how and why one could get more stability using this product than a two part? Did you try using a two part first?
 

arking_mark

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Curious as to how and why one could get more stability using this product than a two part? Did you try using a two part first?

I think the attraction to AFR is all-in-one dosing. Hence why I've been trying to switch over to it. However, I've struggled with stability and automation which is much easier to achieve with other methods such as 2-part.
 

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I think the attraction to AFR is all-in-one dosing. Hence why I've been trying to switch over to it. However, I've struggled with stability and automation which is much easier to achieve with other methods such as 2-part.
Yep. I switched to it specifically because it's an all-in-one solution that I can run on one dosing pump (but super easy to dose manually in small tanks). It costs more than other methods, but my largest tank is only 30g, so while I won't say that "cost isn't an issue", I will say that it's not going to break me. ;)
 
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