Ammonia and Copper Power

[Weeb]

I've read in this thread post #15 where @Jay Hemdal said that "Copper Power, with a fresh full dose will give a 0.50 ppm ammonia reading."

Can you (Randy) or anyone clarify the chemistry for the increase in ammonia readings (using a Hanna Checker) when dosing Copper Power?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've read in this thread post #15 where @Jay Hemdal said that "Copper Power, with a fresh full dose will give a 0.50 ppm ammonia reading."

Can you (Randy) or anyone clarify the chemistry for the increase in ammonia readings (using a Hanna Checker) when dosing Copper Power?

Thanks in advance.

For further information - I was using a Hach salicylate test on a DR5000. I've long been curious about the chemistry involved here......

Jay

 

[Weeb]

For further information - I was using a Hach salicylate test on a DR5000. I've long been curious about the chemistry involved here......

Jay

Do you think it might be a Hach issue? Does the Hach colorimeter test compare to the Hanna Checker, do you know/think?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not sure exactly what chelator is used in copper power, but many copper chelators contain amines and some amines can give a reaction in ammonia tests.

 

[Weeb]

Thank you Randy.

It just seems that a rise in the ammonia reading of 0.5 ppm would seem high.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you think it might be a Hach issue? Does the Hach colorimeter test compare to the Hanna Checker, do you know/think?

IDK - this was a standard ammonia test, run on a spectrophotometer. I've not compared the colorimeter to the Hanna Checker.

I think the different ammonia test methods can give different results depending on the form of ammonia/amine is being tested. I just don't have the chemistry background to sort it all out.....

Jay

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy.

It just seems that a rise in the ammonia reading of 0.5 ppm would seem high.

True, it may not be real.

 

[CJWilliams]

Bringing this back up as I just did some testing on this.

Have a QT tank and it read high on ammonia (0.91). Running Copper Power and Nitrofurazone. Checking ammonia with Hanna Checker.

QT was uncycled and was planning to do 100% WC’s per BRS method. Going to change this in the future.

I performed the 100% water change and checked ammonia again the next day and read 0.63 which seemed off to me.

I was thinking it was the Nitrofurazone because it gives the water a yellow tint. So I scooped out a large cup of my fresh saltwater from the Brute can and tested it. Then I mixed in a pinch of Nitrofurazone to tint the water and checked again. Then added 0.4 mL of copper power which tested at 3.75 ppm copper.

Ammonia results:

Fresh saltwater: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone & 3.75 ppm Copper Power: 0.80

With the copper power, the cuvette was visibly green where the others we more yellow (this coming from a partially colorblind guy).

So the conclusion I’m drawing is that the blue tint of copper power with the reagents for ammonia testing (which should be yellow without ammonia) boost the color into the green range giving false ammonia readings.

My seachem ammonia alarm never registered anything the whole time either. But I never trusted those.

 

[Thumbster]

Prior to this it was my understanding that the preferred way to qt fish was to use copper power at a 2.5ppm concentration for 30 days and test using a Hanna checker?

Now that copper power apparently skews the results on the Hanna checker is there a different test that can be ran? Or maybe I’m not understanding this.

 

[drolmaeye]

Prior to this it was my understanding that the preferred way to qt fish was to use copper power at a 2.5ppm concentration for 30 days and test using a Hanna checker?

Now that copper power apparently skews the results on the Hanna checker is there a different test that can be ran? Or maybe I’m not understanding this.

I think the suggestion above is that it skews the results of the hanna AMMONIA checker.

 

[drolmaeye]

Bringing this back up as I just did some testing on this.

Have a QT tank and it read high on ammonia (0.91). Running Copper Power and Nitrofurazone. Checking ammonia with Hanna Checker.

QT was uncycled and was planning to do 100% WC’s per BRS method. Going to change this in the future.

I performed the 100% water change and checked ammonia again the next day and read 0.63 which seemed off to me.

I was thinking it was the Nitrofurazone because it gives the water a yellow tint. So I scooped out a large cup of my fresh saltwater from the Brute can and tested it. Then I mixed in a pinch of Nitrofurazone to tint the water and checked again. Then added 0.4 mL of copper power which tested at 3.75 ppm copper.

Ammonia results:

Fresh saltwater: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone & 3.75 ppm Copper Power: 0.80

With the copper power, the cuvette was visibly green where the others we more yellow (this coming from a partially colorblind guy).

So the conclusion I’m drawing is that the blue tint of copper power with the reagents for ammonia testing (which should be yellow without ammonia) boost the color into the green range giving false ammonia readings.

My seachem ammonia alarm never registered anything the whole time either. But I never trusted those.

Regarding your last sentence, remember the badge only changes in the presence of free ammonia NH3 while (I think) the Hanna checker measures total ammonia nitrogen NH3 and NH4+, so it would be very possible to measure TAN with checker but not register an appreciable amount of free ammonia with the alert badge.

 

[Thumbster]

I think the suggestion above is that it skews the results of the hanna AMMONIA checker.

When I said “Hanna checker” I was referring to the Hanna AMMONIA checker.

If there is something else from Hanna that is used to measure ammonia and is called a “Hanna checker” I was not aware of it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

When I said “Hanna checker” I was referring to the Hanna AMMONIA checker.

If there is something else from Hanna that is used to measure ammonia and is called a “Hanna checker” I was not aware of it.

Hanna ammonia recommended but salifert also reliable

 

[Thumbster]

Hanna ammonia recommended but salifert also reliable

Ok thanks.

 

[drolmaeye]

When I said “Hanna checker” I was referring to the Hanna AMMONIA checker.

If there is something else from Hanna that is used to measure ammonia and is called a “Hanna checker” I was not aware of it.

Your post referred to adding chelated copper to a level 2.5 PPM and test using a hanna checker. The way I read it, I was worried you thought there was a problem with the Hanna COPPER checker and just wanted to make the distinction clear. Based on your reply it's clear you weren't mixing the checkers up, but the clarification could still be of use to other readers.

The argument made elsewhere is that possibly many brands of ammonia tests are affected by copper, I don't think it is a particular problem with the Hanna ammonia checker and not other ammonia tests.

 

[Thumbster]

I should have clarified that in the initial post. Sorry. What I wrote and what I THOUGHT I wrote were two different things.

So is it being suggested to use a fully cycled qt tank for qt since there isn’t a reliable way to measure ammonia?

 

[taricha]

to sift through this a bit....

Have a QT tank and it read high on ammonia (0.91). Running Copper Power and Nitrofurazone. Checking ammonia with Hanna Checker.

With the copper power, the cuvette was visibly green where the others we more yellow ...

My seachem ammonia alarm never registered anything the whole time either. But I never trusted those.

Those badges are not perfect but they are pretty good.

This part is true, but not what I think is going on...

the badge only changes in the presence of free ammonia NH3 while (I think) the Hanna checker measures total ammonia nitrogen NH3 and NH4+, so it would be very possible to measure TAN with checker but not register an appreciable amount of free ammonia with the alert badge.

yes, the badges/films measure NH3 and the total ammonia test measures NH3+4, but the badges are sensitive enough that at a total ammonia of near 1ppm, and pH of near 8 - the badges in my experience show a clear color change.

this makes Randy's explanation more likely...

I’m not sure exactly what chelator is used in copper power, but many copper chelators contain amines and some amines can give a reaction in ammonia tests.

An amine copper chelator would show up as ammonia on the total ammonia test, but it is not ammonia, and the NH3 detecting badges would correctly not detect it.

So there's no real ammonia here probably.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Bringing this back up as I just did some testing on this.

Have a QT tank and it read high on ammonia (0.91). Running Copper Power and Nitrofurazone. Checking ammonia with Hanna Checker.

QT was uncycled and was planning to do 100% WC’s per BRS method. Going to change this in the future.

I performed the 100% water change and checked ammonia again the next day and read 0.63 which seemed off to me.

I was thinking it was the Nitrofurazone because it gives the water a yellow tint. So I scooped out a large cup of my fresh saltwater from the Brute can and tested it. Then I mixed in a pinch of Nitrofurazone to tint the water and checked again. Then added 0.4 mL of copper power which tested at 3.75 ppm copper.

Ammonia results:

Fresh saltwater: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone: 0.15
With Nitrofurazone & 3.75 ppm Copper Power: 0.80

With the copper power, the cuvette was visibly green where the others we more yellow (this coming from a partially colorblind guy).

So the conclusion I’m drawing is that the blue tint of copper power with the reagents for ammonia testing (which should be yellow without ammonia) boost the color into the green range giving false ammonia readings.

My seachem ammonia alarm never registered anything the whole time either. But I never trusted those.

I don’t think this is a visual color issue, the blue color of copper power is not visible once diluted to treatment level.
Copper power and coppersafe are bound with amines, and that is what shows up on some ammonia tests. The questions is though - is this bound ammonia toxic to fish? Then, what happens if there is also free ammonia in the tank, how do you tell how much of the ammonia reading is from the amines and how much is from the fish?
Jay

 

[drolmaeye]

I should have clarified that in the initial post. Sorry. What I wrote and what I THOUGHT I wrote were two different things.

So is it being suggested to use a fully cycled qt tank for qt since there isn’t a reliable way to measure ammonia?

Okay, I regret using CAPS, LOL. Was just trying to emphasize, but I think it came across as being a bit condescending. Sorry about that.

Fully cycled QT tank is sometimes not practical, especially if it is set up hastily to deal with an emerging situation. Ideally one has a bit of filter media in DT sump that can be brought over. Otherwise I think it makes sense to minimize ammonia causing stuff and monitor with both badge and test kit. I've found having a bit of Fritz bacteria on hand helps to deal with little spikes.

I think taricha has it right: use badge to monitor NH3, if we use a kit that tests total ammoniamnitrogen, just be aware the measured level may be elevated from the additives in the copper treatment. At the end of the day, our fish's behavior can often tell us there's a problem, although ideally we catch it before then.

 

[ReefED!]

Does the badge go back to the right color when ammonia drops or do you need a brand new ones