Ammonia Testing and Copper

[puffy127]

@Jay Hemdal how are you testing ammonia when running copper? I read on a previous post you used API (salicylate method) and Hach. Most of us hobbyists do not have access to Hach instruments. Copper is known to interfere and give false positives for ammonia tests kits, except for the Seachem Ammonia Alert, which you had previously stated are not to be trusted. Have you seen any interference of copper with your API ammonia tests? How about with your Hach tests?

Over on the Reef Chemistry forum, @Dan_P and @taricha developed a method for using Hanna checkers with the RedSea and API ammonia test kits (both use the salicylate method) to give more accurate readings: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/here-is-a-way-to-measure-ammonia-accurately.799139/

I decided to test both Copper Power and Coppersafe using the RedSea test kit and they both give false positive numbers. I used three samples - all had the same new water, 1.025 sg. One sample had no copper added, one sample I added copper power to achieve a 1.91 ppm concentration (verified by Hanna), and one sample I added coppersafe to achieve a concentration of 1.94 ppm. The sample with no copper yielded 0.05 ppm total ammonia. The copper power sample yielded 0.5 ppm TAN, a false positive by a factor of 10. The copper safe sample yielded 0.38 ppm TAN. I also ran the RedSea tests on the samples manually, and the no copper sample was yellow - 0 ppm and the copper samples definitely were not yellow and were greenish-blue. It was hard to match to a color, but again, definitely darker and a different color than the no copper color.

So how do we hobbyists monitor ammonia during copper treatment?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You know, I'm not sure. When I said I used the API test, I meant I use the API copper test and read it on a spectrophotometer using a standard curve I made up. For ammonia, I use the Hach salicylate test on a DR5000.
I keep all of my quarantine tanks operational at all times, so I don't routinely screen for ammonia when treating copper. I had thought though, that it was only Cupramine that gave a false positive to the ammonia tests. One confounding factor is that some sea salt brands, when freshly mixed, give ammonia readings of around 0.20 mg/l.

Jay

 

[taricha]

Cross-posting this from the Ammonia measurement thread.

Like Dan said, this total ammonia test method is reactive (to varying degrees) with some organic nitrogen forms - usually it's small and we can ignore it. apparently not in this case. Red Sea and API will not differ here.

Seachem makes an ammonia kit that uses tiny color change discs that can be used (without the high pH drops) to react with free ammonia only. In that way they don't use any real reaction done on the sample water that would change the NH3 / NH4 / free / bound / complexed / whatever. So it can be used to see if the results of a total ammonia test line up with free ammonia amounts.

After spending some time with the kit trying to turn these little color discs into precise free ammonia measures, I would just say they are useful for ballpark measures, but not precise calculations. But they would totally tell you whether there is real significant free ammonia in the copper-treated water, or if as Dan says, the N is actually bound in the copper additive and not dangerous NH3.

(similar story will be true for using water conditioners to treat ammonia/chloramine containing water. Total Ammonia test will find it, a passive free ammonia membrane like the seachem discs / seneye ought to correctly tell you there isn't any).

 

[taricha]

Seachem actually says their kit can be used for exactly this purpose...

Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert® and MultiTest™ Free & Total Ammonia test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.

 

[chadfish]

You know, I'm not sure. When I said I used the API test, I meant I use the API copper test and read it on a spectrophotometer using a standard curve I made up. For ammonia, I use the Hach salicylate test on a DR5000.
I keep all of my quarantine tanks operational at all times, so I don't routinely screen for ammonia when treating copper. I had thought though, that it was only Cupramine that gave a false positive to the ammonia tests. One confounding factor is that some sea salt brands, when freshly mixed, give ammonia readings of around 0.20 mg/l.

Jay

Jay is the API test kit easy to read out of the box? Looking to purchase either API or Salifert, but API is way cheaper

 

[puffy127]

Jay is the API test kit easy to read out of the box? Looking to purchase either API or Salifert, but API is way cheaper

For copper you should get the Hanna checker.

 

[chadfish]

For copper you should get the Hanna checker.

Yeah... that’s not happening...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay is the API test kit easy to read out of the box? Looking to purchase either API or Salifert, but API is way cheaper

No, API kit is awfully difficult to read without a spectrophotometer. The Hanna checker is the best tool I think. I haven’t used the salifert kit.
Jay

 

[Saltyanimals]

@Jay Hemdal how are you testing ammonia when running copper? I read on a previous post you used API (salicylate method) and Hach. Most of us hobbyists do not have access to Hach instruments. Copper is known to interfere and give false positives for ammonia tests kits, except for the Seachem Ammonia Alert, which you had previously stated are not to be trusted. Have you seen any interference of copper with your API ammonia tests? How about with your Hach tests?

Over on the Reef Chemistry forum, @Dan_P and @taricha developed a method for using Hanna checkers with the RedSea and API ammonia test kits (both use the salicylate method) to give more accurate readings: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/here-is-a-way-to-measure-ammonia-accurately.799139/

I decided to test both Copper Power and Coppersafe using the RedSea test kit and they both give false positive numbers. I used three samples - all had the same new water, 1.025 sg. One sample had no copper added, one sample I added copper power to achieve a 1.91 ppm concentration (verified by Hanna), and one sample I added coppersafe to achieve a concentration of 1.94 ppm. The sample with no copper yielded 0.05 ppm total ammonia. The copper power sample yielded 0.5 ppm TAN, a false positive by a factor of 10. The copper safe sample yielded 0.38 ppm TAN. I also ran the RedSea tests on the samples manually, and the no copper sample was yellow - 0 ppm and the copper samples definitely were not yellow and were greenish-blue. It was hard to match to a color, but again, definitely darker and a different color than the no copper color.

So how do we hobbyists monitor ammonia during copper treatment?

What's the conclusion here? Seems like the topic started with ammonia accuracy (API?) in Copper Power (not CP) then evolved into Copper test.

I have 2 alert badges next to each other because I don't trust them. Running Copper Power at ~2.0 and I think my fish are breathing harder. API Ammonia says .25pm at most hard to tell, but can I trust API running in copper?