Ammonia won't come down since May 2017

[lonewonderer]

Hello guys, need help here. My ammonia in my 40 gallon reef tank won't come down since May 2017. I'm using my API reef master test kit and the ammonia reading is still 0.25ppm. I tested my FOWLR tank and its on 0ppm with the same test kit. so for sure it's not the test kit. I feed them only once a day very minimal. I'm at a loss here need help please.

Tank setup
40 gallon breeder
20 gallon refuge/sump
sand, chemipure blue, carbon, filter floss
Aquaclear 110 for mech filtration
DIY algae scrubber
2 HOB protein skimmer
mp10 and aqamai wave maker
heater

corals are 70% softies, 20% LPS and 10% sps
hammers, frogspawn, torches, xenia, gsp, mushrooms and leathers.
birdsnest frag, red cap monti frag

fishes
4 clownfish
2 damsel
2 chromis
5 snails
2 shrimp
4 hermit crabs

parameters
ammonia 0.25ppm
kh - 10
ph 8.2
cal - 430-440
nitrates - undetectable
phos- undetectable
nitrites- 0ppm
temp - 78


please help!

 

[madweazl]

My overwhelming suspicion is the test kit; especially since you haven't mentioned anything dying.

 

[reefrooster]

How much live rock is in your system?

 

[lonewonderer]

My overwhelming suspicion is the test kit; especially since you haven't mentioned anything dying.

I tested my other tank and it's 0ppm. and I have 2 sets of API reef master kit so i know for sure its not the test kit.

 

[lonewonderer]

How much live rock is in your system?

about 60-80 pounds of LR

 

[WWIII]

Api always shows .25. That's odd the other tank shows 0, if that is actually what you have determined. I would get a 3rd test done by LFS or buy a better test. Would be really hard for ammonia to stay right at .25 for 5 months

 

[lonewonderer]

Api always shows .25. That's odd the other tank shows 0, if that is actually what you have determined. I would get a 3rd test done by LFS or buy a better test. Would be really hard for ammonia to stay right at .25 for 5 months

I bought some sample water to my LFS last week and they have a Sera test kit. It shows signs of ammonia when they tested it. I just don't know where is this ammonia coming from. I have RO filter system By the way.

 

[Lukas75]

I assume you are using the same source water for both systems. Are you using the same salt and are you following the same WC schedule if any between the two tanks? If not is anything else different? An additive or lack thereof?

 

[WWIII]

If your water company uses chloramines it is possible to have those break through an rodi system if not equipped with the correct filters that are in good condition. This can show up on an ammonia test. Have you tested your ro water for ammonia?

Edit - keep forgetting you said your other tank tests 0. I assume you're using same water. I dunno? Very strange for it to have that ammonia reading for so long.

 

[lonewonderer]

If your water company uses chloramines it is possible to have those break through an rodi system if not equipped with the correct filters that are in good condition. This can show up on an ammonia test. Have you tested your ro water for ammonia?

Edit - keep forgetting you said your other tank tests 0. I assume you're using same water. I dunno? Very strange for it to have that ammonia reading for so long.

yes, I'm using the same Ro water from my 4 chamber Ro system " RO Buddie" My other tank is a 120 gallon fish only heavy stocked but when tested ammonia is not present. That is why m really confuded why I still have ammonia. Oh BTW i as at my LFT this evening and I spoke with the owner. He said 0.25ppm is nothing for reef tanks and he told me that ammonia usully present even after a year.i dunno if that is true...

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ahhh-ammonia-spike.328633/


You don’t have free ammonia it’s api error. Ammonia is the #1 molecule in demand inside a reef tank after cycling, it’s not possible for a true .25 sustained to occur. Do a google search on .25 misreads there’s ten thousand documented.

There's also avail online for reading people who actually dose raw ammonia to their matured reef tank as maintenance (valid source of nitrogen/can be dangerous obviously) in excess of what is leaked from bad membrane ro/Di issues, with no persistent .25

The number one reason to be skeptical of any sustained .25-.5 APi claim is because universally all cycled reef tanks with normal surface area inclusions can digest upwards ~4ppm ammonia every 24 hours. That means a true persistent .25 reading has a -massive- sustained input, which would kill everything in the tank within an hour. Not one thread ever finds this source and posts confirming tests, it's always just stated in backup of the suspect reading.

Even minor topoff water issues cannot explain persistent low level ammonia in a matured reef tank. People will find all manner of explanations to back up a .25 reading but the Google search returns keep building, and zero trends are forming with salifert use.

 

[brandon429]

The tank emergency forum needs a sticky: the impact APi ammonia testing has had on tank cycling: hobby-wide trend of false ammonia readings, 25 yrs of guesswork and testy titrations. makes filtration bacteria seem weak but they're really the strongest organisms in your tank.

A rep from APi should show up and comment

 

[Lukas75]

What is odd is that they are showing zero in the other system. My thought is a contaminant causing false readings. The big thing I noticed is that the other tank is not a reef tank and likely not dosed. Here we have a potential contaminant source. Since it’s not moving from 0.25 I’m thinking it is not bioactive and probably no longer being added. If you are using different salts there is another potential source. Have you done water changes to see if the concentration is effected by it?

 

[brandon429]

I agree there's always a few contention points that keeps the trail going, in this case the reading being reef specific vs the others showing zero



People don't typically dose Prime into their alternate test container as they may have done in a reef tank, and that alone is likely the #1 confound we can see from ghost ammonia threads where the test is indicating a reading, its just adulterated. agreed theres more than one reason a test can show .25 when there is none.

I think a handy way to get a set of constraints around all ghost ammonia threads is to see if they involve this repeating pattern of factors:
-the tank has some maturity/submersion time in the best of these threads. healthy corals.
-API is involved
-always a close multiple of .25
-always in the presence of totally active marine animals, the most sensitive to free ammonia. Corals fully open. fish swimming norm, every thread.
-no loss of organisms can be shown
-no smell from the system
-no way to locate a source of ammonia ranging above 5 ppm, the required amnt of input to even be able to approach the known oxidation levels of a post cycle tank.


Ghost ammonia threads always involve those above in some weird way.

Change the lighting/room in which we read an api, get a totally different read factors as well./ other confounds: we find people using a freshwater reference card or test occasionally. Vial fill amnts change, non- shaking of the reagents when they sit is a known API issue. I quit tracing out the confounds and stick to the biology in most of the threads, cuz we never have salifert as a reference and the reported amnt is always, always .25 or a close multiple on an API kit.

We have six page cycling thread that doesn't use ammonia testing to turn out tank after tank, I like excluding ammonia testing altogether in reefing and that's why I don't own an ammonia test kit. we don't need ammonia testing even to cycle a bucket of dry rocks, bacterial adhesion time is already known and littered about on cycling charts online. Even sourcewater mistakes have to input a massive amnt of ammonia to overcome a tank's normal command...many people actually dose raw ammonia to their reefs to get nitrogen and those reefs digest it all well under 24 hours.

It is fully fair to say, especially on nano-reef.com ammonia tracing threads in the smaller tanks, that some of our threads never get closure. The test perpetually reads .25 no matter what we do in some cases, and in others a clear yellow/zero ammonia can be shown when testing things like tap water after its sat a while. Put back on the nano, with everything in perfect health and zero known ammonia inputs, it showed .25 in a few threads and we simply had to factor that as insignificant/unable to comment on why. Some of these were fishless tanks, no clear ammonia source. nothing we could claim would override 5 lbs of cured live rock (power sponge for ammonia)

That ammonia would persist for any reason in a matured reef tank barring any abnormal details goes against the grain of what the most adapted life forms on the planet do-source of my skepticism each time

This compound is perfectly streamlined across tanks after certain dates of maturity, so its fun and a challenge to try and document accurate/verified sustained low level ammonia challenge threads.

 

[Lukas75]

Agreed I always cycle fishless. I have a seneye I bought for a cheap PAR meter. I pop a slide in, drop it in the tank and watch. Once the ammonia starts to drop I test nitrite. Once that drops the cycle is done. Add fish, if in a month everthing looks fine I don’t test or monitor ammonia after that.

 

[lonewonderer]

Thank you all for the input. I haven't done a water change for the last month. Parameters are all on par except ammonia. I haven't had a fish loss since I started this 40 gallon reef tank. My tap water here in Los Angeles has a .5ppm ammonia but RO system should remove it correct? I had that RO system for 5 months now. I will send photos tonight about the result of the RO water, Reef tank and the FOWLR tank.

 

[brandon429]

is api indicating that tap reading or another test kit and does that tap water smell really bad in the cup? always like to tie stated API readings to other ways we can discern ammonia, its smelly!

by rule, free ammonia in a reef tank that is sustained is coming from a source that's likely highly concentrated. Not trace levels of ammonia, but something 4 or 5+ ppm, a massive source. I agree we don't want to input purposeful ammonia in the tank if water prep is off somehow, but for your actual tank to register ammonia (not the tap water) a much larger source than .5 is needed as input. I read that RO will not remove ammonia

but getting .5 out of a tap in a city that big with wastewater treatment=suspect. they have water quality reports online, every city does, check those to see if they indeed output free ammonia at that level to LA. I bet its an interaction between chloramines etc Im not a chemist but it w come back to that somehow I bet.

can you post pics


what we did with pics off that other thread sealed the deal on it

things were in question, right up until full tank shot which confirmed no ammonia at all. if your pic shows open corals, fish swimming and breathing normally, there's no free ammonia sustained in your tank.

 

[lonewonderer]

is api indicating that tap reading or another test kit and does that tap water smell really bad in the cup? always like to tie stated API readings to other ways we can discern ammonia, its smelly!

by rule, free ammonia in a reef tank that is sustained is coming from a source that's likely highly concentrated. Not trace levels of ammonia, but something 4 or 5+ ppm, a massive source. I agree we don't want to input purposeful ammonia in the tank if water prep is off somehow, but for your actual tank to register ammonia (not the tap water) a much larger source than .5 is needed as input. I read that RO will not remove ammonia

but getting .5 out of a tap in a city that big with wastewater treatment=suspect. they have water quality reports online, every city does, check those to see if they indeed output free ammonia at that level to LA. I bet its an interaction between chloramines etc Im not a chemist but it w come back to that somehow I bet.

can you post pics


what we did with pics off that other thread sealed the deal on it

things were in question, right up until full tank shot which confirmed no ammonia at all. if your pic shows open corals, fish swimming and breathing normally, there's no free ammonia sustained in your tank.

I'll post pictures tonight. I'll test the Tap, reef, Fowlr and even my freshwater tanks. I'll check back in later.

 

[Lukas75]

I'll post pictures tonight. I'll test the Tap, reef, Fowlr and even my freshwater tanks. I'll check back in later.

Test your RO water as well. If you have a batch of saltwater mixed up test that too. I had a problem a while back with ammonia in Instant Oceans salt. Research indicated I wasn’t the first to have that problem and it happens sometimes with the manufacturing process. That having been said that was bioactive and the bacteria took it away pretty quickly. Yes I changed salts.