Ammonium dosing is a bit overrated

JonasRoman

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I'm quite confident with the fact that Nitrate is not a primary source for corals and not for bacteria either, so for me, if you shall dose N at all, I think ammonia is better. But urea is even better, so when/if I am running out of N , I see NO3 as secondary indicator of N deficiency, and I will always compensate that with using organic N. Like more food.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I'm quite confident with the fact that Nitrate is not a primary source for corals and not for bacteria either, so for me, if you shall dose N at all, I think ammonia is better. But urea is even better, so when/if I am running out of N , I see NO3 as secondary indicator of N deficiency, and I will always compensate that with using organic N. Like more food.

While I do not have an opinion on the relative merits of urea and ammonia, why do you think urea is better?

Do you know that corals use it directly, or do bacteria convert it to ammonia first?
 

rishma

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I'm quite confident with the fact that Nitrate is not a primary source for corals and not for bacteria either, so for me, if you shall dose N at all, I think ammonia is better. But urea is even better, so when/if I am running out of N , I see NO3 as secondary indicator of N deficiency, and I will always compensate that with using organic N. Like more food.

While I do not have an opinion on the relative merits of urea and ammonia, why do you think urea is better?

Do you know that corals use it directly, or do bacteria convert it to ammonia first?
The article below is the only places I’ve seen the case for urea. I actually plant to give it a try along with ammonia as an experiment.

 

Hans-Werner

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Hans-Werner

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I want to come back to the iron question. It doesn't exactly fit here but I think Claude's "bolus" effect might also be related to iron precipitation. Increased pH and alkalinity could precipitate iron that has dissolved under lower pH and lower oxygen concentrations during the night and restore the positive (especially for coral coloration) low iron concentrations.

Hmm. I’ve been playing with iron dosing after struggling to grow algae in my turf scrubber. I read it can be limiting to zooxanthellae, too, so I was curious if I’d see a growth response to corals by dosing it.
Maybe correct, but zooxanthellae growth should be limited. Evidence and theory say that under unlimited growth zooxanthelle use all the chemical energy they produce for their own growth and corals may be starved or at least much worse nourished than with growth limited zooxanthelae.

The first guess for a good growth limiting nutrient would be phosphate in my eyes because phosphate plays a major role in propagation and cell division. This was my approach around 30 years ago but at some point, maybe 24 years ago, I had to accept I was on the wrong track. Phosphate limitation did not improve coral growth, health and coloration but the opposite. Now my favourite is a nitrogen-iron-colimitation.

Edit: ... well, maybe iron limitation allone is also good ... as concenssion to all high-nitrate-advocates. 😉
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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CHSUB

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Evidence and theory say that under unlimited growth zooxanthelle use all the chemical energy they produce for their own growth and corals may be starved or at least much worse nourished than with growth limited zooxanthelae
This is nearly exactly what Borneman in his book Corals published in 2001 writes, “when the zooxanthellae have an enriched nitrogen environment, they do not translocate as much to the animal and instead use it for their own growth. Nitrogen-enriched waters, therefore has an immediate effect of stimulating a larger zooxanthellae population, which in turn creates a higher demand for carbon dioxide that may or may not be met. Nitrogen enrichment can also directly block photosynthesis by interfering with photo absorption…. there are also as many study showing that nitrogen enrichment significantly reduces, calcification, photosynthesis and respiration rates and even reduces skeletal density.” Borneman cites numerous studies to this effect from Kinsey and Davies 1979 to Marubini and Davies 1996.

I’m more convinced by this information than Joe Blow’s tank with “nice” corals and a no3 level of 25 ppm…..
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I’m more convinced by this information than Joe Blow’s tank with “nice” corals and a no3 level of 25 ppm…..

lol

Ok, I’m not. Someone doing the exact thing you decry and having a great tank would seem proof that high nitrate does not prevent one from having a great tank.

That doesn’t conflict with the quote you posted. It means being a great tank and, even if true, having less energy from the zoox delivered to the coral body are not mutually exclusive events.
 
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I want to come back to the iron question. It doesn't exactly fit here but I think Claude's "bolus" effect might also be related to iron precipitation. Increased pH and alkalinity could precipitate iron that has dissolved under lower pH and lower oxygen concentrations during the night and restore the positive (especially for coral coloration) low iron concentrations.


Maybe correct, but zooxanthellae growth should be limited. Evidence and theory say that under unlimited growth zooxanthelle use all the chemical energy they produce for their own growth and corals may be starved or at least much worse nourished than with growth limited zooxanthelae.

The first guess for a good growth limiting nutrient would be phosphate in my eyes because phosphate plays a major role in propagation and cell division. This was my approach around 30 years ago but at some point, maybe 24 years ago, I had to accept I was on the wrong track. Phosphate limitation did not improve coral growth, health and coloration but the opposite. Now my favourite is a nitrogen-iron-colimitation.

Edit: ... well, maybe iron limitation allone is also good ... as concenssion to all high-nitrate-advocates. 😉
Thank you very much! That was very helpful.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Iron limitation is an interesting concept. It is the limiting factor for some organisms in at least some parts of the ocean. I dose quite a bit, mainly for my refugia macroalgae, but I have no real way to know if that’s a pro, con, or both.
 
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Iron limitation is an interesting concept. It is the limiting factor for some organisms in at least some parts of the ocean. I dose quite a bit, mainly for my refugia macroalgae, but I have no real way to know if that’s a pro, con, or both.
Do you agree that zooxanthellae growth should be limited and too much can actually be worse for the coral? I read about them outcompeting corals for (carbon?) This always kind of confused me because I’d assumed more zooxanthellae = more photosynthesis that the coral can gain energy from. How can they outcompete energy from corals?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Do you agree that zooxanthellae growth should be limited and too much can actually be worse for the coral? I read about them outcompeting corals for (carbon?) This always kind of confused me because I’d assumed more zooxanthellae = more photosynthesis that the coral can gain energy from. How can they outcompete energy from corals?

I do not know how zoox levels relate to what is delivered to the coral body. The whole system is complicated enough with a lot of different variables (light, all sorts of needed elements, temperature, flow, coral species, coral regulating zoox levels, etc) that I would not assume that any simple answer applies in all cases we care about.
 

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This is nearly exactly what Borneman in his book Corals published in 2001 writes, “when the zooxanthellae have an enriched nitrogen environment, they do not translocate as much to the animal and instead use it for their own growth. Nitrogen-enriched waters, therefore has an immediate effect of stimulating a larger zooxanthellae population, which in turn creates a higher demand for carbon dioxide that may or may not be met. Nitrogen enrichment can also directly block photosynthesis by interfering with photo absorption…. there are also as many study showing that nitrogen enrichment significantly reduces, calcification, photosynthesis and respiration rates and even reduces skeletal density.” Borneman cites numerous studies to this effect from Kinsey and Davies 1979 to Marubini and Davies 1996.

I’m more convinced by this information than Joe Blow’s tank with “nice” corals and a no3 level of 25 ppm…..

Come on, we can't use the books anymore, remember?
 

jeremie

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I read about them outcompeting corals for (carbon?) This always kind of confused me because I’d assumed more zooxanthellae = more photosynthesis that the coral can gain energy from. How can they outcompete energy from corals?
One common hypothesis is that when the growth of symbionts is no longer limited by certain nutrients, such as nitrogen, much of their photosynthate will be used for proliferation rather than being translocated to the host. This scenario is somewhat analogous to carbon dosing in a tank with depleted nutrients, where heterotrophic bacteria are unable to proliferate due to the lack of materials needed to build biomass. As a result, the added organic carbon is primarily metabolized through respiration rather than being assimilated into new cells.

Intracellular competition for inorganic carbon is also frequently brought up to explain why some studies have found lower calcification under high symbiont densities.

However, I generally prefer to consider photosynthetic activity, the amount of photosynthate translocated, and symbiont density as independent parameters, since they do not necessarily correlate with one another in all cases.

New insights into carbon acquisition and exchanges within the coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis under NH4+ and NO3− supply
For example, this study found that the enrichment of both nitrate and ammonium can increase symbiont density, but ammonium enrichment actually increased the amount of photosynthates transferred to the host, while nitrate enrichment didn't have a significant impact.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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One common hypothesis is that when the growth of symbionts is no longer limited by certain nutrients, such as nitrogen, much of their photosynthate will be used for proliferation rather than being translocated to the host. This scenario is somewhat analogous to carbon dosing in a tank with depleted nutrients, where heterotrophic bacteria are unable to proliferate due to the lack of materials needed to build biomass. As a result, the added organic carbon is primarily metabolized through respiration rather than being assimilated into new cells.

Intracellular competition for inorganic carbon is also frequently brought up to explain why some studies have found lower calcification under high symbiont densities.

However, I generally prefer to consider photosynthetic activity, the amount of photosynthate translocated, and symbiont density as independent parameters, since they do not necessarily correlate with one another in all cases.

New insights into carbon acquisition and exchanges within the coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis under NH4+ and NO3− supply
For example, this study found that the enrichment of both nitrate and ammonium can increase symbiont density, but ammonium enrichment actually increased the amount of photosynthates transferred to the host, while nitrate enrichment didn't have a significant impact.

I guess the important question is, assuming this hypothesis is even true, is it detrimental?

The last paragraph, if correct as literally written, suggests it is not true for elevated nitrate, and seems to suggest the hypothesis in the first paragraph is not actually happening (extra N caused proliferation instead of transfer).
 

Hans-Werner

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Do you agree that zooxanthellae growth should be limited and too much can actually be worse for the coral? I read about them outcompeting corals for (carbon?) This always kind of confused me because I’d assumed more zooxanthellae = more photosynthesis that the coral can gain energy from. How can they outcompete energy from corals?
The concept is quite simple: Zooxanthellae, just as other microalgae, need all nutrients for growth and division. If one nutrient is lacking they can't unfold their full growth potential. However, photosynthesis cannot be switched off when algae are exposed to light. Light energy is collected and without discharge would destroy the photosynthetic apparatus. So the light energy is used to build organic carbon compounds from CO2 and water like "normal". Since the alga cannot use the glucose and other organic carbon compounds, which are formed, for growth it just excretes them into the water, or in the case of zooxanthellae into the coral. It is a natural process that foundet the symbiosis between coral and zooxanthellae.
 

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Maybe correct, but zooxanthellae growth should be limited. Evidence and theory say that under unlimited growth zooxanthelle use all the chemical energy they produce for their own growth and corals may be starved or at least much worse nourished than with growth limited zooxanthelae.
Can't corals limit zooxanthellae growth themselves? We know that corals can "cleaning house" when the temperature gets too high, what we call "coral bleaching".

So why should a coral in a reef tank starve when it only needs to throw out (some of) its zooxanthellae?
 

Dan Reef

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The concept is quite simple: Zooxanthellae, just as other microalgae, need all nutrients for growth and division. If one nutrient is lacking they can't unfold their full growth potential. However, photosynthesis cannot be switched off when algae are exposed to light. Light energy is collected and without discharge would destroy the photosynthetic apparatus. So the light energy is used to build organic carbon compounds from CO2 and water like "normal". Since the alga cannot use the glucose and other organic carbon compounds, which are formed, for growth it just excretes them into the water, or in the case of zooxanthellae into the coral. It is a natural process that foundet the symbiosis between coral and zooxanthellae.
Can the Zooxanthellae inside the coral also excrete organic carbon to the water column?

That would explain why my last tank that was NO3 limited (was very challenging to change from 0) had high DOC despite me dosing any form of carbon and doing good husbandry (water changes, good skimmer etc)
 

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