An interesting observation on dinoflagellates

[Snoopdog]

So in the heat of battle with these guys, today I think I am winning, I noticed something. I have been complaining about the lack of copepods and amphipods in my tank. I did get it from someone used but it just seems the rock is dead, so is the sand. During this dinoflagellate explosion I have introduced some live rock, just not enough yet. Yet still, not one pod has showed and that has been concerning. I have 25 more pounds of live rock currently curing and that should be enough. I have been doing a lot of research on the history of dinoflagellates and what people have learned, since these creatures have been around forever. Interestingly enough pods eat them if they are outnumbered, but if they are outnumbered they get eaten. Interesting article about it here...

Now caveat this does not look peer reviewed, but I am looking into other sources of information on it.

Uses of algae I. energy

I still stick to my first theory is the lack of people using live rock. Back when I started we just did not use dead rock, maybe a piece here and there but the vast majority of our rock was live. I did not even use bagged sand, I went to a local reefer that had cultured sand that was teaming with life, he would bag it for me. So if you had enough pods in your tank, they probably would outnumber the dinoflagellates.

 

[Silent]

Interesting

 

[Snoopdog]

If everything I read is correct, and so far I am seeing references that it is true then this makes sense why certain things are working for some but not others. If you can knock the dinoflagellates down enough and get a pod population built before the dinoflagellates increase their population you win. If you introduce pods to a tank with thriving dinoflagellates, you basically just fed them and increased their numbers. They are opportunistic feeders, they will eat flesh or light, whatever is more abundant.

People have reported putting pods in their tank as part of their arsenal and them just disappearing, that makes total sense now. I think the trick to pull this off is multipart. You need to drastically reduce the population of dinoflagellates by doing a hefty dose of UV in the beginning, you can probably lessen the amount once you get into maintenance mode. Keep the UV going until you see your tank crawling with copepods, at that point you can coast and turn the UV off. This will be my approach and I will report back.

I know everyone keeps point to zero nitrates and zero phosphates as being the issue but is it possible that those observations are a red herring? Could it not be that the tank is immature and most immature tanks do run very low numbers? We may be missing the big picture here that dinoflagellates are always there and since there is a lack of biodiversity there is nothing to eat them. Basically they spawn out of control because they have no known predator, at least enough to compete with an explosion of them. In nature when the balance gets upset often there is a drastic change. I remember when they added a pond in my subdivision, months later there was an explosion of frogs the first summer. There were so many spawning frogs that you could not walk down the sidewalk without killing a few with each step, it was quite a sight. A little later a snake or two found that pond and then we had a snake issue, you could rarely find a frog. Eventually nature balanced it all out. It seems our problem here is balance is broken. We have removed the predator to dinoflagellates, to some extent anyway.

I am either right or wrong on this, but this is the route I will take.

 

[Nick428]

i've always noticed a lack of isopods copepods is synonymous with dino blooms. However i remember reading a study that dinos are nutritionally poor for them as a single food and need other foods like green film algae to sustain a large population. This could be why Nitra/Phos have some sort of relation to the issue.

Ive also noticed heavy detritus accumulation with some species.

 

[Snoopdog]

i've always noticed a lack of isopods copepods is synonymous with dino blooms. However i remember reading a study that dinos are nutritionally poor for them as a single food and need other foods like green film algae to sustain a large population. This could be why Nitra/Phos have some sort of relation to the issue.

Ive also noticed heavy detritus accumulation with some species.

I will know I can remove my UV when I see no dinoflagellates and I have a pod explosion, that will be the right timing.

 

[Snoopdog]

I take back my theory. I have been reading heavily on the dinoflagellate monster thread. Back in 2017 #taricha and others basically tried this theory and it seems good on the surface, it does not hold as valid.

Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

Thank you very much I didnt knew exist product to rise phosphates, I will search to buy it. ;) If you do find that particular brand, I like the instructions on it – they seem conservative and very comprehensive. Do it just like they say, IMO. They say to target from .01 ppm to .02 ppm – in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Nick428]

I take back my theory. I have been reading heavily on the dinoflagellate monster thread. Back in 2017 #taricha and others basically tried this theory and it seems good on the surface, it does not hold as valid.

Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

Thank you very much I didnt knew exist product to rise phosphates, I will search to buy it. ;) If you do find that particular brand, I like the instructions on it – they seem conservative and very comprehensive. Do it just like they say, IMO. They say to target from .01 ppm to .02 ppm – in...

www.reef2reef.com

Yea thats why they are such a pain nobodys 100% sure why they come and go.

I can say around mid 2000's and under dinoflagellate outbreaks were very rare and i owe that too the aggressive types of filtration methods that have hit the market.

I always had good results with feeding more and lowering the light cycle on my refugium.

Ive also had plug in play phos remover in "dinos" take it out dinos start to disappear.

 

[Snoopdog]

Yea thats why they are such a pain nobodys 100% sure why they come and go.

I can say around mid 2000's and under dinoflagellate outbreaks were very rare and i owe that too the aggressive types of filtration methods that have hit the market.

I always had good results with feeding more and lowering the light cycle on my refugium.

Ive also had plug in play phos remover in "dinos" take it out dinos start to disappear.

One thing I am going to try tonight is actually turning all the lighting off at night and let the UV lights run full blast. I have so far been running my sump and refugium light 24x7. Hard to believe how old that thread is now.

It is hard for me to figure what has changed in all of that time. There are only two things I can think of is LED lighting and now people using dead rock. When I read one guy that said his 12 year old mature tank got it, my heart sank.

 

[Erick Armanii]

I got it once too! Painful experience followed by a combination of other bad situations caused me to take the tank down, upgrade and start over.

I’ve since learned dinos are most common in tanks with little to 0 nutrients.

Also, I read on Reef2reef that raising your temp up to 83 degrees will wipe out Dino’s overnight! Do it gradually to not shock the system.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Copepods eat dinos but die after that, so not a great way to remove dinos.

 

[Erick Armanii]

Copepods eat dinos but die after that, so not a great way to remove dinos.

Beleza

 

[Snoopdog]

I got it once too! Painful experience followed by a combination of other bad situations caused me to take the tank down, upgrade and start over.

I’ve since learned dinos are most common in tanks with little to 0 nutrients.

Also, I read on Reef2reef that raising your temp up to 83 degrees will wipe out Dino’s overnight! Do it gradually to not shock the system.

Correlation does not equal causation, many people have raised their temperature to 83 and it had zero effect.

 

[Erick Armanii]

Correlation does not equal causation, many people have raised their temperature to 83 and it had zero effect.

Agreed! That’s why it’s so important that everyone does their own research! The correlation with ultra low nutrients may not be the cause of Dino’s, but is mutually agreed upon from many industry leaders and individuals. The same could be said in regards to UV.

From what I read everyone that raised their temperature successfully beat Dino’s. Not 1 person (until this conversation) stated otherwise.

I personally never raised my temperature but feel confident that if Dino’s came around, I would try it out.

 

[Marc2952]

I have also noticed that as the dinos disappeared in my tank i had an explosion of copepods and isopods. To the point where it has freaked out my girlfriend lookomg at the glass and even irritating some of my acros. I guess the dinos reduction and going fallow ( lack of predator) made them explode. Ill take that over dinos any day though.

 

[Snoopdog]

Agreed! That’s why it’s so important that everyone does their own research! The correlation with ultra low nutrients may not be the cause of Dino’s, but is mutually agreed upon from many industry leaders and individuals. The same could be said in regards to UV.

From what I read everyone that raised their temperature successfully beat Dino’s. Not 1 person (until this conversation) stated otherwise.

I personally never raised my temperature but feel confident that if Dino’s came around, I would try it out.

I have read the very long thread we have here on the subject and read from multiple people that raising the temp to 83 for an extended period of time did nothing. Once I have some time I will try to post back here.

 

[Snoopdog]

I have also noticed that as the dinos disappeared in my tank i had an explosion of copepods and isopods. To the point where it has freaked out my girlfriend lookomg at the glass and even irritating some of my acros. I guess the dinos reduction and going fallow ( lack of predator) made them explode. Ill take that over dinos any day though.

Yeah I do not think they can win the battle by themselves, they need help. Finally saw four copepods yesterday, not seen a dang one since I setup my tank. I was like finally!! The dinoflagellates are gone, so now they finally have a chance to thrive.

 

[Crustaceon]

I’d say dinos are always an issue as they’re nearly impossible to fully eradicate from a tank. This is why the moment a tank that may be several years old can go from having clear sand to dino land the moment a reefer bottoms out their nitrate and phosphate after doing something they shouldn’t have done because they think their acropora will either grow faster or get more colorful. The funny think here is, that reefer probably bottomed out their nutrients with a refugium or ats, which means they probably have a surplus of pods, yet still manage to get dinos.

 

[Snoopdog]

I’d say dinos are always an issue as they’re nearly impossible to fully eradicate from a tank. This is why the moment a tank that may be several years old can go from having clear sand to dino land the moment a reefer bottoms out their nitrate and phosphate after doing something they shouldn’t have done because they think their acropora will either grow faster or get more colorful. The funny think here is, that reefer probably bottomed out their nutrients with a refugium or ats, which means they probably have a surplus of pods, yet still manage to get dinos.

The reason they would be impossible to full eradicate is from my understanding they are always there. You can reduce populations and make it hard for them to thrive, but essentially there will be a few that exist. I may be wrong entirely but I do believe I read they always exist.

 

[Crustaceon]

The reason they would be impossible to full eradicate is from my understanding they are always there. You can reduce populations and make it hard for them to thrive, but essentially there will be a few that exist. I may be wrong entirely but I do believe I read they always exist.

Yep. Same with cyano. This is why I always mention maintaining a bacterial balance within a system. You always want the bacteria to outcompete things like dinos and cyano. Having too few or too much nutrients can upset that balance.

 

[tvan]

Just a dumb question from reading this thread, Is a dino bloom natures way of adding nitrates to the system?