Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[mcarroll]

Thank you very much I didnt knew exist product to rise phosphates, I will search to buy it.

If you do find that particular brand, I like the instructions on it – they seem conservative and very comprehensive.

Do it just like they say, IMO. They say to target from .01 ppm to .02 ppm – in your case I'd say target .02+ ppm. (I don't think even up to .05 ppm should hurt anything.)

Make sure to keep a regular eye on your progress with both NO3 and PO4!

 

[Paullawr]

@Paullawr It sounds like Claude is giving out the same advice that me and a few others here have been preaching.....stop waiting so long for his replies and just read here!



How many days has it been?

Get those PO4 numbers up!! With nitrates that high you'll need it.

Get some of this or something similar or start using it now!!
NeoPhos

Well he is the only person to confirm that the reason some strains are not affected with poisons such as Dino x is that the strain does not consume it.

Everytime i bounced the idea of - do Dino's consume. Ive been told no. Now i know there are two common types of strain in the aquaria industry (as always suspected) it makes sense why some treatments are working better for some and not others.

The issue now is how long can phototropic survive without light in cell and cyst stage.

 

[taricha]

Has anyone tried dosing phytoplankton or copepods to out-compete the dino's?

Phyto and pods (mostly phyto, generally people already have pods in system) is very effective against low/non-toxic sandbed dinos like amphidinium. It's super ineffective against Ostreopsis. (I'm doing this in a tank right now. Pod population increasing, but so is ostreopsis, and nobody can eats enough ostis to stop a bloom.

It was the size. I admit they were large cells. I could clearly see them at 1000x mag where osteo looked about half their size at that magnification.

hmmm.... that size would seem to exclude symbiodinium dinos (zooxanthellae). They are less than 10 microns. Ostreopsis and (large cell) amphidinium are in the 20-60 micron range.
Check out user Pants' videos all of these at 400x
Symbiodinium (zooxanthellae)

Amphidinium (large cell strain)

Ostreopsis


I have seen 2 cases of people whose in-tank bloom really did look like symbiodinium: crazy tiny, spherical, golden, not moving etc.
Now there are rare reported cases of corals hosting dinos not strictly in the genus symbiodinium, but to be tricked into hosting a cell several times the normal size would be something unheard of.
You could test it, and take a tiny bit of coral tissue, or when one expels brown "coral poop" out of a mouth, put it under scope and see if it looks like what you've posted earlier.

Claude then goes on to say (added inline comments).

You had not the normal stuff it was the zooxanthelles of your corals they are throwing out due the limitation...
the Algea X dod not work good against them cause they do not react like normal algeas outside of the host
...
They "eat" nothing so they do not get in touch with DinoX ! but
Due to the dosing you raise up nutrient and that helps you out

(Interesting. I've said for a long time dinoflagellates consume yet have been told on here they do not. It would therefore seem we are both correct and the dinoflagellates that are affected are the ones to directly ingest material and...Dino x) whilst the phototrophic are not affected.

Some said dinos consume algae and diatom cells. There is no evidence the 3 strains common in our tank ingest cells. That would be very interesting if someone found it. If when we say "eat", we mean consume nutrients, then of course. All photosynthetic things need lots of chemicals that photosynthesis alone can't provide. Iron, Alk, Trace elements, B12 etc.

Has claude or anyone ever said how DinoX is supposed to work?

So the million dollar question. ..how do you kill zoo's ?

there's no need. zooxanthellae are delicious to bunches of things.
I had one branch of xenia coral melt. It made a brown goo. I put it under the scope.
a mass of ciliates were devouring the round, gold/brown symbiodinium dinos from the xenia.
One of the craziest things I've seen under scope.

 

[taricha]

Just cant get good pics of the little bugger

looks ostreopsis. Also thick-ish outline looks like it's in a short term cyst state.

 

[mandrieu]

Phyto and pods (mostly phyto, generally people already have pods in system) is very effective against low/non-toxic sandbed dinos like amphidinium. It's super ineffective against Ostreopsis. (I'm doing this in a tank right now. Pod population increasing, but so is ostreopsis, and nobody can eats enough ostis to stop a bloom.



hmmm.... that size would seem to exclude symbiodinium dinos (zooxanthellae). They are less than 10 microns. Ostreopsis and (large cell) amphidinium are in the 20-60 micron range.
Check out user Pants' videos all of these at 400x
Symbiodinium (zooxanthellae)

Amphidinium (large cell strain)

Ostreopsis


I have seen 2 cases of people whose in-tank bloom really did look like symbiodinium: crazy tiny, spherical, golden, not moving etc.
Now there are rare reported cases of corals hosting dinos not strictly in the genus symbiodinium, but to be tricked into hosting a cell several times the normal size would be something unheard of.
You could test it, and take a tiny bit of coral tissue, or when one expels brown "coral poop" out of a mouth, put it under scope and see if it looks like what you've posted earlier.



Some said dinos consume algae and diatom cells. There is no evidence the 3 strains common in our tank ingest cells. That would be very interesting if someone found it. If when we say "eat", we mean consume nutrients, then of course. All photosynthetic things need lots of chemicals that photosynthesis alone can't provide. Iron, Alk, Trace elements, B12 etc.

Has claude or anyone ever said how DinoX is supposed to work?


there's no need. zooxanthellae are delicious to bunches of things.
I had one branch of xenia coral melt. It made a brown goo. I put it under the scope.
a mass of ciliates were devouring the round, gold/brown symbiodinium dinos from the xenia.
One of the craziest things I've seen under scope.

Wow. These are great videos

 

[Paullawr]

The ones in my tank look more like Symbiodinium.
Amphidinium move different and look different.

Yes i did wonder whether they consumed other cells.

 

[badd]

looks ostreopsis. Also thick-ish outline looks like it's in a short term cyst state.

Isn't ostreopsis one of the toxic ones? I have not lost any creatures.. have a missing chromy lol.. only thing it seems to bother is the corals an me..

 

[jason2459]

To clarify

zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates. Once a part of the coral's holobiont they loose their flagellum and ability to "swim" around. If expelled they become very easy pray.

You can see them inside a coral here.





And once expelled can not move and easy pray

 

[taricha]

Isn't ostreopsis one of the toxic ones? I have not lost any creatures.. have a missing chromy lol.. only thing it seems to bother is the corals an me..

Yep. they are toxic, but it varies by particular population, region and water chemistry.
Some papers say lower N or P makes them more toxic, some say lower makes them less toxic. So really not enough evidence to be worth chasing a certain tank chemistry to make Ostis less toxic.
I've had mini-blooms of 5 kinds of dinos and no die-off that I can clearly pin to it. so I dunno.
One paper noted ostreopsis toxicity to artemia (brine shrimp) at only 4 cells/ml. (Blooms are measured in the millions of cells per ml.)
Also, some animals, if given other food options can avoid dino toxins for some time.

 

[badd]

Yep. they are toxic, but it varies by particular population, region and water chemistry.
Some papers say lower N or P makes them more toxic, some say lower makes them less toxic. So really not enough evidence to be worth chasing a certain tank chemistry to make Ostis less toxic.
I've had mini-blooms of 5 kinds of dinos and no die-off that I can clearly pin to it. so I dunno.
One paper noted ostreopsis toxicity to artemia (brine shrimp) at only 4 cells/ml. (Blooms are measured in the millions of cells per ml.)
Also, some animals, if given other food options can avoid dino toxins for some time.

Glad my foxface is tough as nails.. he/she sucks the dino strands up like spaghetti...
But no matter.. these evil cancer devils are a nightmare...I was visable dino free for 2 months.. then as soon as I started feeding coral food (NutriCell) again.. they are back..guess it is back to square one..

 

[Jolanta]

@Jolanta, just to encourage you: we still find Ostreo, Coolia, and Aphidinium cells in our samples, and have since Nov, BUT no dino strands form or bloom. (Of course, I wish I did not find any, but it is what it is. Without my scope, I would assume the dinos were long gone.) Like @mcarroll suggests, I, too, think you are in a good place w/dino population. Once you increase your phosphate a bit, your nutrients will be in good shape and will help the "good" things in your tank increase in number. I know it's tough, but don't stress too much about those lingering cells. I've continued Vibrant and dose mb7 for some additional detritus removal and bacteria variety. (Other bottled bacterias would also be good, I think.)

Keep thinking positive thoughts!

Thank you Scubabeth! The bad think is Im starting to see brown strings today I think the only think to maintain them in check is peroxide, couse its only 4-5 days without it and I start to see strings again. I was so happy but my happines didn lost long and if peroxide maintain them in check but also kill other good things I really dont want to use it forever, knowing it want resolve de problem long term. Im tired and I think I will simply let thing go with Vibrant and phosphate aditive and maybe one day miracle will happen and they will go away on its own.

 

[mcarroll]

So the million dollar question. ..how do you kill zoo's ?

You don't. You change strategy.

Isn't ostreopsis one of the toxic ones? I have not lost any creatures.. have a missing chromy lol.. only thing it seems to bother is the corals an me..

Under low-PO4 conditions, several algae can convert to generating toxins. Presumably for competitive and anti-predator reasons.

The key, then, is to keep PO4 greater than zero at all times.

(Which isn't that hard....most folks just stop trying so hard at exporting PO4, or the feed more.....one or two folks I know have had to resort to PO4-dosing.)

You have to keep up with physical removal for a little while since nothing will eat what's there....but it won't be long before the tides change and they resume autotrophic behavior

I think the only think to maintain them in check is peroxide, couse its only 4-5 days without it and I start to see strings again. I was so happy but my happines didn lost long and if peroxide maintain them in check but also kill other good things I really dont want to use it forever, knowing it want resolve de problem long term. Im tired and I think I will simply let thing go with Vibrant and phosphate aditive and maybe one day miracle will happen and they will go away on its own.

Patience and mechanical removal are defnintiely still called for, if necessary. Maybe even a week or few weeks – but the tide will turn.

Toxicity is their secret weapon....without that, they will blend in with the tank. Cilliates and other natural predators will start consuming them and other algae will take their territory.

And if you think you've throttled back too far/too fast on the H2O2, then stop reducing the amount for a while.

 

[Jolanta]

You don't. You change strategy.



Under low-PO4 conditions, several algae can convert to generating toxins. Presumably for competitive and anti-predator reasons.

The key, then, is to keep PO4 greater than zero at all times.

(Which isn't that hard....most folks just stop trying so hard at exporting PO4, or the feed more.....one or two folks I know have had to resort to PO4-dosing.)

You have to keep up with physical removal for a little while since nothing will eat what's there....but it won't be long before the tides change and they resume autotrophic behavior



Patience and mechanical removal are defnintiely still called for, if necessary. Maybe even a week or few weeks – but the tide will turn.

Toxicity is their secret weapon....without that, they will blend in with the tank. Cilliates and other natural predators will start consuming them and other algae will take their territory.

And if you think you've throttled back too far/too fast on the H2O2, then stop reducing the amount for a while.

I have one question if somebody had a mature tank with deep sand bed and still got dinos? I want to start nano cube and want to avoid dino danger so I was thinking to start with deep sand bed and good quality live rock and when the sandbed takes of and have a lot of live in it start to add corals.

 

[NCreefguy]

I have one question if somebody had a mature tank with deep sand bed and still got dinos?

I've got a 15yo tank with a DSB and mine still got dinos.

 

[Jolanta]

I've got a 15yo tank with a DSB and mine still got dinos.

So I think I would make my new cube plated tank.

 

[Capn Briarius]

Long time reefer, first time dino fighter here. Got some "red slime" under a microscope today and it sure looks like ostreopsis. Formulating a plan of attack. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Have already lost some urchins and a brittlestar. LFS suggests raising magnesium levels.

 

[Paullawr]

Long time reefer, first time dino fighter here. Got some "red slime" under a microscope today and it sure looks like ostreopsis. Formulating a plan of attack. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Have already lost some urchins and a brittlestar. LFS suggests raising magnesium levels.

Uzi 9mm, rocket propelled grenades and one of those red head scarfs.

 

[Paullawr]

@Jolanta

Discussed with Claude. He says you are doing the right thing. You could try dino x but he recommends in your case as a last resort. You are doing well to have beat it back.

 

[mcarroll]

I have one question if somebody had a mature tank with deep sand bed and still got dinos? I want to start nano cube and want to avoid dino danger so I was thinking to start with deep sand bed and good quality live rock and when the sandbed takes of and have a lot of live in it start to add corals.

I think it's more about stability in husbandry than anything else in particular. GFO+carbon dosing is a husbandry hack that I don't think any of us really understand too well. And while using those together isn't the only way to get bad dino's (or other things), it almost seems like a sure thing when we do use them.

So aim to keep a tank that can be balanced/remain stable without excessive (or any) use of husbandry hacks. (I think I've used about 1 Liter of GFO in nearly 10 years....maybe the same amount of activated carbon....dosed vinegar for a while but it was more to supercharge my kalk reactor, so it wasn't on the usual schedule or in the usual quantities. Keeping a lower bio-load than "normal" can help a lot, but it only helps if you're keeping the system pretty stable. Especially regular feedings.

(Remember: "regular" is a frequency, not a quantity....feed up to the point that nutrients stay under control without you having to do anything fancier than a water change – not too much. Even water changes would hopefully not make any drastic changes to your water quality though.)

IMO, a deep sand bed is a problem waiting to happen for most tanks anyway....plus in a nano that's a large percentage of tank space to give up!

As far as the nano and the dino's? Go for it, and...

• If you can, keep the tank at least 10' from your current tank AND SHARE NO EQUIPMENT between them just in case. I don't think there's really anything to this, but 10' isn't that far to achieve a small measure of security.
• Start the bio-load very small and build it very slowly. No magic reasons, the slowness is just so you can see the system develop slowly enough so you catch the details....so you'll see if things are going off track in time to change things.
• Corals don't count IMO since they are likely to consume dissolved nutrients including ammonia by preference (also nitrates, amino acids and urea!!) as well as suspended detritus. Add as many as you want....more or less in proportion to the fish or a bit more would be an OK rule of thumb.
• Mind your nitrates and phosphates like you would normally mind alkalinity and calcium....keep firmly established minimums. Phosphate is the most critical as it seems to have the worst downsides if it stays at zero (not limited to tank pests).

 

[mcarroll]

So I think I would make my new cube plated tank.

That wouldn't be a huge loss to me....I like planted tanks a lot!

Long time reefer, first time dino fighter here. Got some "red slime" under a microscope today and it sure looks like ostreopsis. Formulating a plan of attack. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Have already lost some urchins and a brittlestar. LFS suggests raising magnesium levels.

How are your test numbers? Have you been GFO/carbon dosing?

It's likely that lower nitrates and more likely low phosphates are your issue, but let us know!!!