Anemones and why you should wait.
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Crabs McJones
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Right, she probably uses ours enough as it is!! (Kidding. No wives on the forum take offense. Happy mothers day!
) lol
DieHardPhotog-Reefer
Active Member
@crabs_mcjones Very well said!!
One thing to add.
The trend toward zero nutrients and tanks that are too clean is also a big complicating factor to success with anemones.
Anemones are gigantic photosynthetic polyps and have a large demand for phosphate as a result.
In a brand new tank, due to lack of much microbial infrastructure to capture and recycle "waste nutrients", food inputs could be the only significant phosphate source and could be inadequate to a large anemone's demand.
Smaller anemones should seem to be more hardy, because they should have smaller phosphate demands.
In those rare new tanks where nutrients are left "unmanaged" it's possible a large anemone might do fine.
Big anemones use A LOT of phosphate. Because of the nature of that need I'm not even sure that feeding the anemone will supply the need…
Dissolved phosphate might be required. Eaten nutrients go to the polyp first, but it's the resident dinos that need the phosphate.
This was good info for us newbies to know and so was the OP by @crabs_mcjones . Unfortunately, we didn't heed this warning and now we're facing the death of "Annie" the Green Bubble Tip Anemone.
I'm guessing that the difference between these two pics denotes an imminent death. The 1st image was taken today on May 14th. The 2nd images was on May 4th, just 5 days after being brought home from the LFS and drip acclimated for 2-3 hours.
The next pic is today, May 14th, but she looks like she's dying.
Here's what we know so far from yesterday's testing:
Temp = 77-78.5 (mantained with Apex controller)
Salinity = 1.0255
Alk = 8.5 dKH
Phosphate = 0.63 (but rose UP to 0.71 this afternoon)
pH = 8.2
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 4
Ammonia = <0.02 ppm
Calcium = 575 (rose UP from 410 after a water change???)
Magnesium = 1420
System:
We have a 90 gal display tank with 26 gallon sump (only has 15.5 gal of water though) and a 29 gal refugium that completed cycling on Jan 1, 2018. There's an Aquamaxx FC-120 skimmer, 2 Current USA Pro LED lights, two Jebao PP-15 wavemakers and an Apex 2016.
Livestock:
1 Clownfish, 4 Chromis, 1 Coral Beauty Angelfish, 2 shrimp in the main DT. Also, there are 2 clownfish in the refugium.
Recent changes that I can note:
1. Added the angelfish and the chromis on May 6th just 6 days after the anemone was added
2. Due to a 2-3 month battle with green hair algae outbreak in the display refugium (ONLY in the refugium), we did two 25-30 gal water changes about 6 days apart (May 6th and May 12th), pulled most of the GHA out and scrubbed the rocks with a brush.
3. Removed the MarinePure 8-inch block on May 4th because it might have been a cause of our failed attempts to grow macro algae (Sea Lettuce and Gracil??) in the display refugium.
4. Added 50 ml of Probiotic Marine Formula to the main display tank and 25 ml to the display refugium on May 6th.
5. We were feeding the system with Live Pytoplankton from Algae Barn until it ran out on the 12th?? or close to it.
Can anyone tell me and my wife if this was just too little/much, too soon for Annie the Anemone?
mcarroll
10K Club member
Was that list also the chronology of events?
So the anemone was added, then the five new fish were added, then the algae bloom happened?
That leaves the clownfish (1 up; 2 down) as the sole fish in the tank up to that point?
Was the bio-block in there the whole time or was it added in response to the algae bloom?
Were the two macro algae you mentioned in there the whole time or were they added in response to the algae bloom?
So how was the tank doing with just the clowns and (I could probably guess, but...) why are two in the refugium? Do yo have a diary of test results that wold give you an idea what the nutrient levels were like at that stage?
Did the anemone ever bleach, or did it just collapse? (It's hard to judge color on photos.)
So the anemone was added, then the five new fish were added, then the algae bloom happened?
That leaves the clownfish (1 up; 2 down) as the sole fish in the tank up to that point?
Was the bio-block in there the whole time or was it added in response to the algae bloom?
Were the two macro algae you mentioned in there the whole time or were they added in response to the algae bloom?
So how was the tank doing with just the clowns and (I could probably guess, but...) why are two in the refugium?
Do yo have a diary of test results that wold give you an idea what the nutrient levels were like at that stage?Did the anemone ever bleach, or did it just collapse? (It's hard to judge color on photos.)
DieHardPhotog-Reefer
Active Member
Was that list also the chronology of events?
So the anemone was added, then the five new fish were added, then the algae bloom happened?
That leaves the clownfish (1 up; 2 down) as the sole fish in the tank up to that point?
Was the bio-block in there the whole time or was it added in response to the algae bloom?
Were the two macro algae you mentioned in there the whole time or were they added in response to the algae bloom?
So how was the tank doing with just the clowns and (I could probably guess, but...) why are two in the refugium?
Did the anemone ever bleach, or did it just collapse? (It's hard to judge color on photos.)
OK... I didn't clarify my posting so please forgive me. My wife is waiting anxiously for me to do "SOMETHING" to save Annie.
1. Correct. The clownfish were the first in the tank then the Anemone was added. After that, the 5 fish who had been in QT for 45 days were moved into the DT.
2. The MarinePure Bio Block was in the tank from the beginning.
3. The Macro Algae was already in the tank from about 2-3 months ago because we were trying to start the system off with the Triton Method in mind from the very beginning. (Due to their shipping problems, we opted to set that option aside and figure out what was the next best thing; however, the algae bloom in the display refugium was getting to be a problem that we didn't want to spread into the main DT).
4. The tank seemed to be doing great other than the GHA in the refugium. We tracked and kept the numbers on Nitrates (consistently ranging in the 2-10 range), Ammonia (<0.02 ppm according to the seachem alert), pH was constantly low at about 7.75, Alk looked to be in the lower range as well. Our LFS did a test the day we bought the Anemone and confirmed that Alk was low as well as low Calcium.
We started with 5 clowns. Two were in the dog house, the refugium, because the odd number of fish didn't work, as you can imagine so we moved them. We then bought an AIO 15 gal nano and moved 2 more upstairs which left the smallest clown in a 90 gal display tank alone. (Never have I seen a bullied fish go from terrified, to curious, to lonely, to excited as when this one fish got 5 more roommates. Anyway, I digress..
The anemone hasn't bleached at any point that we noticed. We tried moving it 3 times (We never pulled it from the rock, we just moved the rock). On May 6th, she moved again into a tight spot about 6 inches into a little quiet area of water, then later collapsed into a crevice between two rocks where there was no light at all. Last night, we moved her out of the crevice. We knew enough not to pull her off the rock but when I lifted the rock, she let go then we placed her on the other side of the tank in a pocket of rock that was higher up in the tank.
Any suggestions or ideas? We now know we made a mistake getting her this soon but hate for her to pay for our ignorance with her life.
While I don’t have any recommendations for Annie (god speed DieHard)
I am having anemone woes of my own. The anemone looks better than it did on my first post however it is still not actively feeding. It has at least chosen a spot in a decent lighted area of the tank. It has yet to inflate, or even extend a tentacle, but it’s mouth is not gaping.
Nitrates are still reading zero however I have a daily “haze” of algae on my glass so I know there are some nutrients in the tank. I have started to feed more and skimming dryer. The GSP and zoas have looked happier since doing this so hopefully that’s a good sign. That being said what was an acid rain (green) BTA is looking rough.
I am having anemone woes of my own. The anemone looks better than it did on my first post however it is still not actively feeding. It has at least chosen a spot in a decent lighted area of the tank. It has yet to inflate, or even extend a tentacle, but it’s mouth is not gaping.
Nitrates are still reading zero however I have a daily “haze” of algae on my glass so I know there are some nutrients in the tank. I have started to feed more and skimming dryer. The GSP and zoas have looked happier since doing this so hopefully that’s a good sign. That being said what was an acid rain (green) BTA is looking rough.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Follow me on this...
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
If you noticed, that's a lot of downward pressure on nitrates for you to consistently have some available in tests! This suggests that the system might have been phosphate limited through this period.
Wait, what? They knew your chemistry was off because they tested it and presumably they knew that it was a new tank...and STILL sold you an anemone?
Alk and Ca numbers should not be this uncertain for you in the first place, BTW.....grab a decent test kit for either one if you don't have them already!
This could have been a pretty big factor in the anemone's current shape, depending on "how low" is "low".
I'm not sure if that's a good sign.
Here's another big potential problem...
I'd try not to move them once they are in the tank. Only if they're in imminent danger.
With all those possible contributors – phosphate limitation, alk deficiency, moved constantly – I think this anemone has just had a lot of stresses.
I think the odds don't look too great right now, but if you want to try balancing your phosphate levels, or bringing them up to at least 0.03 ppm.....it might help. Correct alkalinity as well – not too quickly though. And of course hands-off from here on...unless she literally drifts into danger.
Good luck!!!
Downward pressure on nitrates.
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
If you noticed, that's a lot of downward pressure on nitrates for you to consistently have some available in tests!
This suggests that the system might have been phosphate limited through this period.Wait, what? They knew your chemistry was off because they tested it and presumably they knew that it was a new tank...and STILL sold you an anemone?
Alk and Ca numbers should not be this uncertain for you in the first place, BTW.....grab a decent test kit for either one if you don't have them already!
This could have been a pretty big factor in the anemone's current shape, depending on "how low" is "low".
I'm not sure if that's a good sign.
Here's another big potential problem...
I'd try not to move them once they are in the tank. Only if they're in imminent danger.
With all those possible contributors – phosphate limitation, alk deficiency, moved constantly – I think this anemone has just had a lot of stresses.
I think the odds don't look too great right now, but if you want to try balancing your phosphate levels, or bringing them up to at least 0.03 ppm.....it might help. Correct alkalinity as well – not too quickly though. And of course hands-off from here on...unless she literally drifts into danger.
Good luck!!!
DieHardPhotog-Reefer
Active Member
Much appreciated. When you identify the circumstances like that, it only makes sense that the anenome wasn't doing so well. My wife is already in tears knowing we shouldn't have acquired her so soon.Follow me on this...
Downward pressure on nitrates.
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
Downward pressure on nitrates and phosphates.
If you noticed, that's a lot of downward pressure on nitrates for you to consistently have some available in tests!
Wait, what? They knew your chemistry was off because they tested it and presumably they knew that it was a new tank...and STILL sold you an anemone?
Alk and Ca numbers should not be this uncertain for you in the first place, BTW.....grab a decent test kit for either one if you don't have them already!
This could have been a pretty big factor in the anemone's current shape, depending on "how low" is "low".
I'm not sure if that's a good sign.
Here's another big potential problem...
I'd try not to move them once they are in the tank. Only if they're in imminent danger.
With all those possible contributors – phosphate limitation, alk deficiency, moved constantly – I think this anemone has just had a lot of stresses.
I think the odds don't look too great right now, but if you want to try balancing your phosphate levels, or bringing them up to at least 0.03 ppm.....it might help. Correct alkalinity as well – not too quickly though. And of course hands-off from here on...unless she literally drifts into danger.
Good luck!!!
Just a note on the direction we're headed, we now have Hannah Checkers for Phosphate, Alk, and Calcium. We also have the Red Sea Marine Kit and Magnesium Pro Tester. Just invested in the Red Sea Foundation kit (smaller size to see if it we can keep up with their constant water change regimen).
I'm not sure about the next piece. By "phosphate limitation" are you saying that phosphates should be reduced more or not?? The phosphates are currently at 0.71 which I honestly don't know if it's good or bad at this point? Honestly, ignorant here because I was under the impression it's supposed to be in the less than <0.10 range. We just purchased Red Sea's NO3POx for phosphate reduction but now I'm not sure that would make sense based on what's just been shared here.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Meaning, in essence, that the plants and animals dependent on dissolved nutrients (like phosphates, nitrates, etc) would have been able to grow more, heal more, reproduce more and generally consume more nutrients if they had had more phosphate. So in other words, phosphate appears to have been the nutrient limiting potentially all those factors.
Did the anemone ever look GOOD, btw? Or was it a perpetual slide from "iffy" when you got him down to this? It's possible that there was also a contributing factor from before you acquired him.
Is that measurement in PPM or PPB on the checker? If it's PPB then there's a conversion factor to apply to get to PPM.
If it's already PPM then that's pretty high....no need to go any higher.
0.10 ppm is just an ideal target...the only "must" is to avoid zero.
For now you'll be fine allowing your PO4 to fall naturally as it gets used up. Keep an eye on nitrates during this period as they may "run out" while things are using up all that phosphate. For a short period of time that can be OK, but you don't want NO3 to become a limiting nutrient either – your tank is still growing in and maturing, so no nutrient limitation is going to be the way to go. (That means controlling nutrients going in is very important....mostly don't add any groups of animals. Adding aminals in groups causes a large, sudden increase in feeding/nutrients going in. Add them one at a time where possible. Tiny animals like CUC can be exceptions....consider the overall mass.
)In a mature reef there are many factors that can control or dictate the levels of nutrients in the water so your actions will become a smaller and smaller part of the overall picture, and the test numbers will change somewhat in their meaning, as the tank (hopefully) matures.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Correct....save it for a rainy day (next year after the tank has matured).
Carbon dosing is primarily a way of boosting in-tank denitrification. Phosphate consumption will be incidental and maybe not even noticeable.
Only appropriate on "old" tanks that have a nitrate problem. Even then there are often better ways of handling the situation.
Consider also that there are some very successful, well-known reefs that have nutrient levels sky-high. Nitrates literally into the triple digits. Phosphates to match.
Those tanks tell you something about what corals think about high dissolved nutrient levels. (They don't understand what all our fuss is about – or why we have such a problem with them.
)Stability and Time are the two things we usually short change our reefs on when we're starting out. Apply that to your tank's nutrient inputs as it grows and matures.
Keep the rate of change small and keep things stable. If there's any magic bullet in this hobby, that's it.
(That's just a re-statement of the Golden Rule of Reefing, BTW. "Nothing Good Happens Fast In A Reef Tank.")
A Toadstool Leather
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Not to highjack the thread but I was wondering about mini carpet nems. Im thinking of getting one but it would be my first nem and Im not even sure how long to acclimate one. My tank is about a year old btw
Punchanello
Well-Known Member
I just lost my first and only anemone. Wish I had seen this article earlier
Straight in to the powerhead 2 days in. Didn't find much of him.
Not sure I have the stomach to risk another as much as I want to.
Straight in to the powerhead 2 days in. Didn't find much of him.
Not sure I have the stomach to risk another as much as I want to.
NY_Caveman
likes words, fish and arbitrary statistics
I just lost my first and only anemone. Wish I had seen this article earlier
Straight in to the powerhead 2 days in. Didn't find much of him.
Not sure I have the stomach to risk another as much as I want to.
Oh man. Terrible feeling. Sorry to hear. Maybe there is a good way to cover the inlet and try again at a later date.
We are making a long distance move in 6 weeks. Then 6-12 months after that, I hope to buy a place in the same area to stay for years. I had been thinking I should wait until after the second move to set up a tank, but anemones are something I’m really looking forward to. I’m planning to keep them, some soft corals, a funky-looking clean-up crew and maybe a couple fish, if my son wants them. Long-term goals are to have everything in balance so that I don’t need to be adding and removing things all the time.
Now I’m thinking I should start the tank as we settle in after the first move, then lower the water level when it’s time for the second move, so it’s basically a water change that takes all day.
Which do experienced reefers is preferable? If I start the tank sooner, then what things do I need to put in it so it starts cycling, and what things will travel well in the second move? Can it be as simple as live rock in salt water?
Now I’m thinking I should start the tank as we settle in after the first move, then lower the water level when it’s time for the second move, so it’s basically a water change that takes all day.
Which do experienced reefers is preferable? If I start the tank sooner, then what things do I need to put in it so it starts cycling, and what things will travel well in the second move? Can it be as simple as live rock in salt water?
Last edited:
SDReefer
Active Member
Hi @dreamsr! You sure have a hectic few months ahead of you! When I said that the waiting period is for both the tank and the fishkeeper to mature, I mean that the tank needs biodiversity to maintain stability and the fishkeeper needs time to learn the proper practices for keeping a reef tank. Most tanks are fairly unstable in terms of nutrient levels, calcium, alkalinity, and other elements. Anemones don't like, and some won't survive in, those conditions. A newbie reefer doesn't know how to properly maintain a sensitive ecosystem such as an anemone tank.
I'd recommend starting the tank after your first move but keep it FOWLR (Fish Only With Live Rock). That will let the bacteria colony grow and train you and your child in keeping saltwater aquariums. When you move, get a bigger tank, use the same live rock from the old tank, and you can get an anemone within a couple months.
Thanks! I’ll be glad when this moving is all done and I can calm down! I had t realized I could switch out tanks as long as i keep the contents. That should make move #2 easier.
Next question(s): if I’m doing just fish & live rock like you said, do i need all the live rock that I’ll have in the final tank, and if I do need all of it, then can I have it in much less water than I plan on eventually having? I want a 50ish gal tank in the end; can I start with 10 or 20 after the first move?
SDReefer
Active Member
You don't need all the rock since once the bioload increases, the bacteria population will multiply. I'd recommend getting a 29 since it's the same footprint as a 20 long, gives you more room for error, and gives you more options as far as livestock.
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