Another bill against marine fish: H.R. 6447

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Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the link and stellar memory Jay!

I think this brings up a very good point. If any of you have a chance to get behind the scenes at your local zoo or aquarium, you absolutely should. If you are in a local reef club, arrange a tour that includes "behind the scenes" with the zoo or aquarium. They like to do these kinds of things, as it is public outreach that they need.

Here in Pittsburgh, we used to do an annual behind the scenes tour. A few of our members even took diving lessons so that they could volunteer to help in the large reef display.

The curator at Virginia Beach used to be an aquarist at Pittsburgh. She is, IIRC, an expert in SECORE and the Caribbean Coral Restoration initiative.

Jay
 

BeanAnimal

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The curator at Virginia Beach used to be an aquarist at Pittsburgh. She is, IIRC, an expert in SECORE and the Caribbean Coral Restoration initiative.

Jay
Ahh I did not know she ended up there! Yes, the crew from that period were all SECORE, and several other initiatives. I think it is likely that new members of the aquatics team are introduced and become involved because the other members of the team are. It doesn't hurt the resume either. All a good thing.

We were lucky enough to get several presentations over the year and have been very fortunate to have a legacy of good keepers and management here (zoo wide, not just aquatics) . I have not been in several years, but I think they still arrange for the club to take tour every year. The decade that I spent on the board, we did the tours and had them come do at least one, if not more meetings per year. One of their long time marine biologists (I think he left in 2018) is still a club member. I am not sure where he is now though.
 
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AquaLogic

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What a ridiculous thing for the government to focus on. Maybe spend time tackling things that matter.... what a wast of space and money our government is....

Regardless, where I live there is a brisk market for hobbyists trading and selling to each other. No way there is ever going to be funding for law enforcement to stop that.
 
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BeanAnimal

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I'm humbled. I really am. But that actually is the point I'm making, that whatever the reasons, we can't rely on public aquariums to preserve these animals.
I think that is the double edged sword. They can't preserve everything and they are somewhat hamstrung because if they operate as their charters sate, they spend their money ensuring that they preserve what they do have. Kind of a negative feedback loop. They can't just buy coral and toss it in.

Oddly - many can take what is "donated" to prevent it from perishing. I don't know how it works with coral or what current zoo policies are, but in the past zoos ended up with plenty of "Ohh how cute" "ohh it gets 2' long?" fish.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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What Hawaii bill?


I understand that SB505 was "deafeated" a year ago, but what is that saying, "show me the fish". The industry in Hawaii hasn't recovered, at least to the point of being able to supply fish widely in the trade.

Jay
 

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I understand that SB505 was "deafeated" a year ago, but what is that saying, "show me the fish". The industry in Hawaii hasn't recovered, at least to the point of being able to supply fish widely in the trade.

Jay
It’s two separate things at work if that isn’t clear already. Bills are legislative, environmental review is administrative and in this circumstance under court order.
 
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It’s two separate things at work if that isn’t clear already. Bills are legislative, environmental review is administrative and in this circumstance under court order.
But the review was prompted by the introduction of the bill, right? Like the USDA and the animal welfare act - for decades, “animal” just meant “mammal” - until the USDA was threatened with a lawsuit to make it include birds as well.
 

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But the review was prompted by the introduction of the bill, right? Like the USDA and the animal welfare act - for decades, “animal” just meant “mammal” - until the USDA was threatened with a lawsuit to make it include birds as well.
No, it wasn’t. This is why I’m point in g these things out as you’re mistaking processes which contributes to overall confusion.
 

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But the review was prompted by the introduction of the bill, right? Like the USDA and the animal welfare act - for decades, “animal” just meant “mammal” - until the USDA was threatened with a lawsuit to make it include birds as well.
In fact, the environmental activists never could convince the legislature this sustainable fishery should be banned. They’ve been trying every year for almost 20 years. No legislature has ever agreed with them. This is why they turned to the courts where they also lost until it was appealed to the high court which at the time was stacked with fellow environmental activists and that is how they got a BS ruling that kicked off this entire process
 

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But the review was prompted by the introduction of the bill, right? Like the USDA and the animal welfare act - for decades, “animal” just meant “mammal” - until the USDA was threatened with a lawsuit to make it include birds as well.
The USDA wasn't threatened with a lawsuit. They were in fact sued under the AWA.

In Hawaii, the activists couldn't win in the legislature, so they sued the state and convinced the Supreme Court (after losing in all the lower courts) to reinterpret the Hawaii Environmental Policy Act in a way the legislature never intended.

If the Hawaii bill was an example, it will keep getting modified and reintroduced until it does pass...something about beating a dead horse?

The spirit of what you're saying is essentially right though. It may not even get modified. The activists will keep reintroducing a bill every year until the constituency opposing it gets fatigued and complacent. That is why the "it comes up every year and goes away and therefore will never pass" attitude is so dangerous.
 

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This is why they turned to the courts where they also lost until it was appealed to the high court which at the time was stacked with fellow environmental activists and that is how they got a BS ruling that kicked off this entire process
This is because a certain ilk of activist and political animal can't ever accept anything fairly arbitrated if it doesn't provide them with the exact answer that THEY want. They are willing to turn anything and everything upside down and trample on anything, anybody, any precedent, any tradition to get what THEY want, dang common sense, law, consensus or logic or what they destroy in the process. You can't compromise or give an inch, because they want it all and use whatever foothold they can get purchase on to take more. Their ends always justify their means even if they can't even articulate what their ends are and are ignorant to the effects of their means.
 

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I am probably out of the hobby soon, but those of you planning to stick around should get used to this or find a way to partner with both sides and reach an actual compromise. Both sides want their absolute vision implemented and that usually means that the ones who are more organized, resolute and with more money win out... this is not the hobbyists.

I would caution anybody not to forget that you are likely benefiting from laws/regulation that groups larger than our hobby do not like - majority won out, challenged in courts, etc. This is the country that we live in and only fools and losers complain about what they hate like only their opinion matters. There are large subsets of people who would like to still smoke at restaurants, fight you for a perceived slight, hunt animals to extinction, ban all weapons, don't care about harmful workplace condition since it costs more, etc. You take the good with the bad or you need to run for office or otherwise help because whining is just that - it is not easy to keep 7 billion people happy.

I find this whole "wring your congressman" thing to be a joke, at least right now. If you really are up at arms about this, you are either for or against "cult of personality" politics and this issue won't probably change a hundred votes. The people in office know it too...
 

AP Fishkeeper

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I am probably out of the hobby soon, but those of you planning to stick around should get used to this or find a way to partner with both sides and reach an actual compromise. Both sides want their absolute vision implemented and that usually means that the ones who are more organized, resolute and with more money win out... this is not the hobbyists.


I find this whole "wring your congressman" thing to be a joke, at least right now. If you really are up at arms about this, you are either for or against "cult of personality" politics and this issue won't probably change a hundred votes. The people in office know it too...

Aquarium hobbyists can't partner with the other side because the base philosophy of the other side is fish don't belong in glass boxes.

The whole "ring your congressman" thing is not a joke. Grassroots campaigns are very effective, especially when we have the facts on our side. Constituents reaching out to their federal legislators is what killed the Lacey Act amendments two years ago. Just yesterday, a state level bill in Colorado that would have essentially levied an annual tax on every pet in the state including every fish, hermit crab, shrimp, snail, and coral was pulled because of pushback from everyday citizens in the state. Yes, lobbyists throwing money around has some influence, but constituents equal votes, so calling and/or writing the legislators that represent your district has significant impact on their decisions.
 

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You can probably get a few things done at a local level. The Colorado bill was not a tax and rather a fee to keep a database for backup pet keepers should the primary keeper not be able to perform their duties - it was pulled when the sponsor figured out the unintended consequences... probably to her credit. If people were interested in compromise and not absolutism, this would have been talked about correctly. There is probably some merit to this idea, but this idea on how to implement it was horrible.

Is anybody on this board changing a national vote based on the rep or senator not supporting an aquarium? Anybody? Most people are probably not changing their minds for any reason. If your congressperson told you to stick it, nearly nobody can let the "other side" win so they will vote the same way and just complain about it.

You better learn how to partner up. Both sides can be winners if people were not so stuck in their ways. Nobody here has the NRAs money to be so absolute.
 

AP Fishkeeper

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Is anybody on this board changing a national vote based on the rep or senator not supporting an aquarium? Anybody? Most people are probably not changing their minds for any reason. If your congressperson told you to stick it, nearly nobody can let the "other side" win so they will vote the same way and just complain about it.

You better learn how to partner up. Both sides can be winners if people were not so stuck in their ways. Nobody here has the NRAs money to be so absolute.
Again, yes, it works at the federal level. The Lacey Act Amendments two years ago were killed largely because of grassroots efforts by everyday people contacting their legislators. Reaching out to district offices does have an impact. Legislators don't like to upset voters in their districts if they can avoid it.

As for both sides compromising and being winners: You can't compromise when the other side's goal is to end the hobby and each piece given up is essentially just a stepping stone to that goal. This is set up as a zero sum game. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.
 

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The message was not intended as humorous. From my viewpoint, there's no disadvantage in making an effort to communicate our stance. Remaining silent allows Congress members to only be exposed to the perspective advocated by the proposed bill. While I can comprehend if you view this approach as futile, I ultimately disagree with that sentiment.
 

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You better learn how to partner up. Both sides can be winners if people were not so stuck in their ways.
I don't agree with this for the most part. The "other side" of many issues are rabid ideologues that can't be compromised with and any attempt to do so just cedes ground for the next round. One side, in effect turns the other side into the same thing. You put 10 kids in a room and walk away, one will end up with all of the lunch money all of the time. It is human nature. Resisting the bully does not make you the bully, but compromise usually has you bend the knee while the bully stands on your hand.
 

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