Another Palytoxin story...
- Thread starter Adam113
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Those of us that have been out for this toxin can´t agree with that statement.
The toxin can be airborne.
However - I can´t read the article access denied
Sincerely Lasse
I didn't say palytoxin is exaggerated, I said the stories coming out are exaggerated and sorry you disagree but I stand by my statement. Kept so many palys over many years and I fragged just as many. Never had an issue due to taking proper precations.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Palytoxin is a quite large molecule, about the biggest that natural molecules get that are not polymers of multiple repeating units like proteins and DNA.
Cells work very hard to keep a proper balance of sodium and potassium inside. Often that means pumping out sodium and pumping in potassium. There is a special transporter that uses energy to do that in all animal cell membranes. Most cell spend a large fraction of their energy using this transporter, and nerve cells can use 2/3 of their total energy expenditure this way.
Palytoxin binds to this transporter, not only stopping it, but making it into a hole for Na+ to stream in and potassium to stream out. That causes all sorts of nasty things to happen to the cell, including cell death.
Palytoxin:
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/p/palytoxin.html
Cells work very hard to keep a proper balance of sodium and potassium inside. Often that means pumping out sodium and pumping in potassium. There is a special transporter that uses energy to do that in all animal cell membranes. Most cell spend a large fraction of their energy using this transporter, and nerve cells can use 2/3 of their total energy expenditure this way.
Palytoxin binds to this transporter, not only stopping it, but making it into a hole for Na+ to stream in and potassium to stream out. That causes all sorts of nasty things to happen to the cell, including cell death.
Palytoxin:
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/p/palytoxin.html
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Adam113
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They literally cannot be airborne without something like boiling water turning their toxins into a gas. They’re molecularly way too heavy. They do not and cannot just become airborne. If they did, the LFS and coral industry would be full of dead people and infected stores.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Right. It takes droplets of some sort for it to become airborne.
Even hot, I doubt any is truly in the gas phase. It's just way too big.
Scurvy
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So obviously we wear gloves or should whenever we’re handling anything in our tanks but how does one properly dispose of something potentially containing a toxin. I have green Paly’s that are supposedly on the toxic side. If I wanted to get rid of them what’s the safe way to do it? Seems like simply tossing them in the garbage could lead to issues for someone or something if they the paly’s sit cooking in a hot dumpster. Is there a way to safely “Kill” the toxin? Just curious. I see these articles every couple of months but don’t believe I’ve ever seen the question asked.
We should weigh as well the claim of contact aersolization as well... brush scrubbing aerosolization without boiling required. I think possible.
Been lucky
18 yrs keeping palys, blasted in the eye once ( a true no no ) zilch
Tons of scrubbing, peroxide bubbling on external treatments, especially if the surfaces area cruddy or if peroxidase bac happen to be present I bet that can cast it too but locally, I wouldn't think across the room but not sure
One of the recent Fox News paly claims had two outliers: Xenia as the locus claimed vs palythoa, and they scrubbed. Xenia made me doubt the whole thing but it made news two mos ago for sure.
Been lucky
18 yrs keeping palys, blasted in the eye once ( a true no no ) zilch
Tons of scrubbing, peroxide bubbling on external treatments, especially if the surfaces area cruddy or if peroxidase bac happen to be present I bet that can cast it too but locally, I wouldn't think across the room but not sure
One of the recent Fox News paly claims had two outliers: Xenia as the locus claimed vs palythoa, and they scrubbed. Xenia made me doubt the whole thing but it made news two mos ago for sure.
Yep dipping frags in peroxide can aerosolize Paly toxin as it happened to me a few years back but I had my nose right up to the dipping container trying to spot potential pests Etc. I was dipping purple death palys ironically 
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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I totally agree. Most times there is something missing from the story or things don't add up. Recently in Tucson AZ there was a another palytoxin story. The News reported it differently than directly from the victim. On a local group thread the victim had been moving, fragging or re-arranging some rocks around. When a rock with palys came in contact with the lights (Hydra 52's) or a cross brace right under the light which was hot. Causing the palys to burn creating an airborne gas. The entire family got sick. Glad to hear they are ok. Either way I'm sure every paly/zoa is different and the reactions people encounter with them may vary. Personally I haven't had any issues but always exercise caution. Especially when I'm fragging them. Seems I'm constantly fussing at my kids to leave the room when I'm fragging - for their own good. Since my little ones are curious as to what I'm doing.
sghera64
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+1 aerosolized
I thought I was being clever to remove some polyps that “got me” with palytoxin by doing it in the water. I had livestock OB gloves and safety glasses - - but no respirator. 6 hrs later, I was in bed with a 104(F) fever, aches and pains that lasted 12 hrs. Then that dang cough (nothing comes up, but you have to cough). Took 3 days to feel normal again. My thinking was that the small bubbles that rose to the surface from my scrubbing with a wire brush in the tank aerosolized what was in the water. Since my nose was literally 2-4” away from the water, I likely inhaled the micro droplets. BTW - - my hands and arms stayed nice and dry with the OB gloves.
A few weeks later, I dared to finish the job (other side of tank). This time, used OB gloves, safety glasses and my 3M VOC respirator. No illness. I now use those three protective pieces of equipment whenever I “tear” into mushrooms, xenia, zoos, or anything else funky looking on my rock.
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Devils advocate here. What this does is raise awareness to the ER and ICU's that wasn't before. That is a good thing.
Case in point. My better half works in a PICU. Social functions, mingle, socialize, we talk about hobbies, etc. Resident stops wife - your husband keeps saltwater tanks, right? Wife, yes he does. Resident says doesn't your daughter have asthma? Wife says yes, she does. They chit chat a bit more then talk about the word spreading around the various units, especially ICU and Trauma, about this palytoxin stuff, and how they are adding to Q&A based on symptoms.
It raises awareness. So personally speaking unless California adds more nanny state laws that prevent us keeping them I think these various stories are actually helping. Especially within the hospitals that are level 1 trauma.
Case in point. My better half works in a PICU. Social functions, mingle, socialize, we talk about hobbies, etc. Resident stops wife - your husband keeps saltwater tanks, right? Wife, yes he does. Resident says doesn't your daughter have asthma? Wife says yes, she does. They chit chat a bit more then talk about the word spreading around the various units, especially ICU and Trauma, about this palytoxin stuff, and how they are adding to Q&A based on symptoms.
It raises awareness. So personally speaking unless California adds more nanny state laws that prevent us keeping them I think these various stories are actually helping. Especially within the hospitals that are level 1 trauma.
knowen87
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I went to his gofund me page and it said this "My daughter was taken to the er because they found high levels of carbon monoxide in my blood and tested her and found the same. She was released that evening. " Would paly toxin cause carbon monoxide in their blood or did they just have bad luck and get paly toxin in the eye and CO poisoning at the same time. It seems like CO poisoning would explain
I have to think that do due to how large the organic palytoxin molecule is I have to side with nonaresol contamination and most of these unfortunate stories, as valid as they may be, are likely due solely to a compounding number of other factors as previously stated. Things like inproper handling, direct contamination through lacerations/eyes/mouth, and I imagine largely due to novice use of chemicals in an effort to “kill off” polyps from rock work without a true understanding of how those chemicals might react given a completely separate sets of variables.
I have to think that due to how large the organic palytoxin molecule is I have to side with nonaresol contamination and most of these unfortunate stories, as valid as they may be, are likely due solely to a compounding number of other factors as previously stated. Things like inproper handling, direct contamination through lacerations/eyes/mouth, and I imagine largely due to novice use of chemicals in an effort to “kill off” polyps from rock work without a true understanding of how those chemicals might react given a completely separate sets of variables that may have been in play.
rosshamsandwich
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i must be the luckiest person in the world. I've been slimed, I've had their mouths squirt liquid into my eye and all over my face... I've had the slime touch my skin ... I've had dry slimed contaimnated tools worked with. It was great.
rosshamsandwich
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this
Cat also got sick according to gofund me, also says the dog may have eaten some rock crumbs, its "colon was releasing her intestines", sounds like a perforated bowel, maybe...
I'd like to know how high levels of carbon monoxide play into palytoxin exposure. The redness down the arm from the cut sounds bacterial to me, but I'm not a doctor... feel bad for the guy but seems like an incomplete story at the least.
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