Anyone use the red sea complete reef care (4 part) and recommend it?

[tuscani]

I will stick with AFR

 

[stevo_87]

I had been using their Foundation A/B/C (plus the 4 part trace elements) that look like this (total 7 parts)

But I see now that they have a new 4 part system that is dosed based off of calcium only.

Anyone use this complete care system? Anyone like dosing just by Calcium uptake? Is that a reliable method?

Thanks!

I’ve just had mine delivered today and i will be starting to use it from tomorrow so i will feedback

 

[dolpator]

"I calcium test per week and your done"

Wow, ignorance is bliss. Don't even test to see you are wildly swinging alkalinity up and down.

I'm against dosing a whole system based on calcium. IMO, it moves much too slowly and has too much testing variability to make it a good way to control the dosing of something that will swing around a lot faster: alkalinity. It's like the tail wagging the dog, IMO.

If a calcium test comes in just 10 ppm low, dosing an extra 10 ppm of calcium is not ever a concern.

But the balanced amount of alkalinity would not be so fine. It would involve dosing an extra 1.4 dKH of alk, on top of what was normally dosed.

Other than that, this product is like a lot of similar products that you need to have a level of trust in the supplier.

It's basically a two part system that has four parts. I also do not think dosing trace elements such as iron based on calcium consumption makes sense. Some tanks can have very high iron consumption (with an ATS or macroalgae and mostly soft corals) relative to calcium consumption, and others may have the opposite (e.g., an SPS tank with heavy coralline and little macroalgae or green algae or soft corals).

I'd personally pick a two part that was properly balanced, and then add trace elements as makes sense for your system, or pick one that seems to fit your tank needs (which might only have two parts, not 4).

i discuss how two part systems like this are designed to achieve different results here:

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters By Randy Holmes-Farley This article is intended to help aquarists understand some of the important differences between the great variety of two and three part alkalinity and...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy what is your take on Lou Ekos from Tropic Marin. Must curious. I have an 80g system and looking at Red Sea Complete Reef/Tropic Marin All For Reef, which I see you are not a fan of the testing only Calcium. I run a trident and would know my numbers at all times, barring that they are correct within a range of course. But if you are dosing only off a calcium reading, is this what they are selling. It isn't that they are not testing the others, we all know better than that. But if the proportions are consumed equally verified by science, knowing one or the other you should be able to figure the proportions, which I think is what they have done. I see a lot of reefers that are dosing equal amounts of alk and calcium, I think ESV promotes this style of dosing. So the science has to be there, isn't this what this is just in a more simplified system. Though I could argue that ESV's system is pretty simple. Respect your opinions, and have followed you for years. Technology is advancing so fast these days, and it seems that way in the reefing world as well. Hard to know these days.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Randy what is your take on Lou Ekos from Tropic Marin. Must curious. I have an 80g system and looking at Red Sea Complete Reef/Tropic Marin All For Reef, which I see you are not a fan of the testing only Calcium. I run a trident and would know my numbers at all times, barring that they are correct within a range of course. But if you are dosing only off a calcium reading, is this what they are selling. It isn't that they are not testing the others, we all know better than that. But if the proportions are consumed equally verified by science, knowing one or the other you should be able to figure the proportions, which I think is what they have done. I see a lot of reefers that are dosing equal amounts of alk and calcium, I think ESV promotes this style of dosing. So the science has to be there, isn't this what this is just in a more simplified system. Though I could argue that ESV's system is pretty simple. Respect your opinions, and have followed you for years. Technology is advancing so fast these days, and it seems that way in the reefing world as well. Hard to know these days.

So...in a "sterile" bubble where there was only coral...there may be a perfect-ish depletion of elements in a nice convenient ratio so that we'd only have to test one thing after knowing initial levels to know the rest.

The problem is we don't have perfectly sterile environments so we have things like micro/macroalgaes, coralline, and other biological forces that impact these ratios as well.

In the Red Sea Complete system they even -to an extent- acknowledge this by stating the system is not for tanks with refugiums.

So maybe their system works in that limited scope, but I would think over time there are going to be "correction" doses based on these outside factors that are going to pull these values off target.

 

[dolpator]

So...in a "sterile" bubble where there was only coral...there may be a perfect-ish depletion of elements in a nice convenient ratio so that we'd only have to test one thing after knowing initial levels to know the rest.

The problem is we don't have perfectly sterile environments so we have things like micro/macroalgaes, coralline, and other biological forces that impact these ratios as well.

In the Red Sea Complete system they even -to an extent- acknowledge this by stating the system is not for tanks with refugiums.

So maybe their system works in that limited scope, but I would think over time there are going to be "correction" doses based on these outside factors that are going to pull these values off target.

Thanks for that reply, makes total sense. I do not run a refugium due to space limitations. I do run a Chaeto Reactor, and when I asked about this they said it would not make enough of an impact on their system. So who knows. I am really looking at the All For Reef Dosing from Tropic Marin in conjunction with Kalkwasser, but just researching all my options.

 

[Troylee]

Thanks for that reply, makes total sense. I do not run a refugium due to space limitations. I do run a Chaeto Reactor, and when I asked about this they said it would not make enough of an impact on their system. So who knows. I am really looking at the All For Reef Dosing from Tropic Marin in conjunction with Kalkwasser, but just researching all my options.

That’s a great combo! I’ve been using it for about 9 months myself.. that’s all sunny x uses also.

 

[Hooz]

What if you dosed the same 4 components, but based it off alkalinity instead of calcium? Small swings in calcium and magnesium have less of an impact than swings in alkalinity do, so it seems you could use the same dosing philosophy, just based on a different indicator.

 

[soreefed]

I use this for a 20g tank. I test alk and calcium twice a month. I dose the trace elements based on my calcium usage. I dose alk/ca daily, and trace elements weekly.

 

[dolpator]

That’s a great combo! I’ve been using it for about 9 months myself.. that’s all sunny x uses also.

I would love to hear more information on how you dialed everything in. Equipment you are utilizing. I really think this is the best bang for the most reward option at the moment. I love the Red Sea Concept. I know they have been running their 7 part with great success and technology has advanced enough for them to do the same thing in a 4 part. I just cannot justify the extra cost right now. I watch a video on the All For Reef Powder and the price point is about $28 for a gallon and each 1600g of All For Reef Powder will make 2.5 gallons of supplement. So I could really see this coupled with Kalkwasser this product could last a while. I read on another thread a reefer only doses 40ml/day of AFR in conjunction with Kalk. If this was the case 1600g would last 250 days. Thats a pretty low price point. I am not sure where I would fall into this dosage. I run mainly a LPS/SPS dominate reef tank, and most SPS are still frags. So very little demand in the beginning.

 

[dolpator]

That’s a great combo! I’ve been using it for about 9 months myself.. that’s all sunny x uses also.

Also, I also noticed that the maximum daily dosage should not exceed 25ml/day per 26 gallons. So for an 80g system I should not exceed 75ml/day. Kalk should be taking up more of the Alkalinity and Calcium components of the Tropic Marin system.

 

[Troylee]

Also, I also noticed that the maximum daily dosage should not exceed 25ml/day per 26 gallons. So for an 80g system I should not exceed 75ml/day. Kalk should be taking up more of the Alkalinity and Calcium components of the Tropic Marin system.

Correct! I top off with fully saturated kalk and dose 80ml daily of all for reef in 300 gallons with it being sps dominated… I still change water but like every 2 months I’ll do 30% just to catch some trace elements if there not up to par… I really couldn’t tell ya if they are not since I can’t test for them and I’m not gonna waste money on a icp if my tank is doing well, ya know…. That’s what works for me and my corals tell the story..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lou and i

Randy what is your take on Lou Ekos from Tropic Marin. Must curious. I have an 80g system and looking at Red Sea Complete Reef/Tropic Marin All For Reef, which I see you are not a fan of the testing only Calcium. I run a trident and would know my numbers at all times, barring that they are correct within a range of course. But if you are dosing only off a calcium reading, is this what they are selling. It isn't that they are not testing the others, we all know better than that. But if the proportions are consumed equally verified by science, knowing one or the other you should be able to figure the proportions, which I think is what they have done. I see a lot of reefers that are dosing equal amounts of alk and calcium, I think ESV promotes this style of dosing. So the science has to be there, isn't this what this is just in a more simplified system. Though I could argue that ESV's system is pretty simple. Respect your opinions, and have followed you for years. Technology is advancing so fast these days, and it seems that way in the reefing world as well. Hard to know these days.

Lou and I disagree on how to dose AFR. He recommends basing it on calcium. I recommend basing it on alk with recognition that there is a testing delay.

I do not recommend AFR at all with any type of automated measurement and testing scheme.

I agree that equal parts dosing is the norm and should always be the default starting ratio for any two part that is designed properly to be 1:1. Of course, some things may skew the demand from 1:1.

 

[dolpator]

Lou and i

Lou and I disagree on how to dose AFR. He recommends basing it on calcium. I recommend basing it on alk with recognition that there is a testing delay.

I do not recommend AFR at all with any type of automated measurement and testing scheme.

I agree that equal parts dosing is the norm and should always be the default starting ratio for any two part that is designed properly to be 1:1. Of course, some things may skew the demand from 1:1.

So what do we do with the building up of salinity that he references that is the byproduct of 2 part. What he says here does make sense. I agree I would test alk as well, I havecalways considered alk more important than calcium, but they should be dosed equally and they almost always get out of balance. I am fighting that very thing. Calcium in the 550 alk in the 8s. Was told to slowly bring my alk up to above 10.5 so they would be more in balance and let nature take its course with consuming

 

[ronsonb]

I started AFR 5-6weeks ago in my reefer 350 that is newer only a year old. I test the majors every few days but since I started I’ve had a noticeable change in my corals. My assumption would be the traces, but I’ve always done water changes every 1-2 weeks so that seems surprising considering my alk demand has never been too high.

I’m surprised how much better things are doing considering I’ve always kept alk/calc/mag under control. Anecdotal for sure but I’ll keep it up for now in hopes I can finally turn the corner to a successful reef!

 

[Lavey29]

I have been using Red Sea trace ABCD for multiple years now. I dose 10ml once a week. I do quarterly ICP tests and my trace elements are typically 90% good with only minor ups or downs needed here and there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what do we do with the building up of salinity that he references that is the byproduct of 2 part. What he says here does make sense. I agree I would test alk as well, I havecalways considered alk more important than calcium, but they should be dosed equally and they almost always get out of balance. I am fighting that very thing. Calcium in the 550 alk in the 8s. Was told to slowly bring my alk up to above 10.5 so they would be more in balance and let nature take its course with consuming

Reducing salinity is not difficult, and most people do not consider it any big deal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There’s no sense in adjusting calcium levels to match your chosen alk, imo. Nor in adjusting alk to match calcium in any sense. Target both to desirable levels independently.

 

[Spizzle]

Thanks for that reply, makes total sense. I do not run a refugium due to space limitations. I do run a Chaeto Reactor, and when I asked about this they said it would not make enough of an impact on their system. So who knows. I am really looking at the All For Reef Dosing from Tropic Marin in conjunction with Kalkwasser, but just researching all my options.

Did Red Sea say you can run 4 part complete with a Chaeto Reactor?? I currently run one but was thinking I’d have to sell it if I decide to change over to the 4 part complete reef care

 

[dolpator]

Did Red Sea say you can run 4 part complete with a Chaeto Reactor?? I currently run one but was thinking I’d have to sell it if I decide to change over to the 4 part complete reef care

They said it would not be much of an impact on their system, and it would be fine.

 

[dolpator]

I started AFR 5-6weeks ago in my reefer 350 that is newer only a year old. I test the majors every few days but since I started I’ve had a noticeable change in my corals. My assumption would be the traces, but I’ve always done water changes every 1-2 weeks so that seems surprising considering my alk demand has never been too high.

I’m surprised how much better things are doing considering I’ve always kept alk/calc/mag under control. Anecdotal for sure but I’ll keep it up for now in hopes I can finally turn the corner to a successful reef!

Awesome to hear....