Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[tfeeken]

I currently have multiple captive bread fish, including a couple clownfish, Biota Yellow Tang, and Coral Beauty Angelfish. I also have a wild caught Tomini Tang, Leopard Wrasse, and Royal Gramma. I recently have identified Ich in my aquarium, from which I've tried very diligently in trying to keep out. My fish are all extremely fat and healthy. The only fish showing signs of Ich is the Tomini.

One instance doesn't make much of a sample size, however not a spec on any of the fish other than the Tomini, which is likely they roundest of the bunch.

 

[Tamberav]

I have mixed many captive bred fish and wild throughout my time in the hobby and I haven't noticed captive bred fish have any greater issues with disease.

Captive bred fish still have slime coats which is probably #1 defense anywho...

 

[Slocke]

I have never had any health problems whatsoever with any of my 7 CB fish. Comparing that to wild caught it is completely different as I've had many problems though of course mostly in the early quarantine and observation days.

It seems to me that though logically CB would have weaker "inexperienced" immune systems they also arrive with far less baggage. Be that diseases and parasites, cyanide poisoning, shipping stress, acclimation stress, and much more.

 

[Stigigemla]

Noone really knows. Aquacultured fish has very good survival quotes.
Salmon, Eel and "put and take" trout has excellent survival quotes when they are transfered to the wild.
So I think we are responsible to many deaths of aquarium fishes.
Transports, patogens and changed water values are things that fish dont meet in the nature the way they do between aquariums.

 

[Andreas' Reef]

So, a wild caught fish may come with disease, but since they've been exposed to it, they have a bit more of an advantage when it comes to disease. On the other hand, A captive bred fish will not come with wild disease, but they will have a disadvantage to dealing with disease.

 

[FSP]

The biggest issues I've run into with captive bred fish have come from trendy designer strains bred multiple generations. The lines can stay relatively strong with good care, but they often get taken up by folks looking for a quick buck or who otherwise don't know how to keep a line going. Albino, fin modifications, body morphs, this, that. A number of these are just plain weaker than wilds or "wild-type" domestic strains. I'm sure that's not what the original post was about, but it eventually comes into play as fish get easier to breed and new morphs pop up.

 

[Dave1993]

i have ich in my tank my captive bred goldflake angel never gets it nor do any of my fish including a powder blue tang

 

[Sharkbait19]

The biggest issues I've run into with captive bred fish have come from trendy designer strains bred multiple generations. The lines can stay relatively strong with good care, but they often get taken up by folks looking for a quick buck or who otherwise don't know how to keep a line going. Albino, fin modifications, body morphs, this, that. A number of these are just plain weaker than wilds or "wild-type" domestic strains. I'm sure that's not what the original post was about, but it eventually comes into play as fish get easier to breed and new morphs pop up.

I agree. Just take a look at plenty of cichlids - electric blue acaras, electric blue Jack dempseys, short body rams, flowerhorns, and parrots (hybrids + inbreeding for the last 2), and more. They are loaded with health issues compared to the wild type, often very deformed and plenty don’t last more than a few months in tanks.

 

[FSP]

They have it pretty bad While not quite as bad as some of the hybrids and deformed fish, we're already seeing a similar progression with clowns. Bull clowns and short bodied clowns will come eventually

I'm not automatically down on linebreeding/inbreeding fish, as it can create great results with good selection, outcrossing, culling, etc., but those steps often get skipped.

The worst example I can think of over a long period are the bigger poecilids like swords and mollies. The fish coming out of Florida used to be big and beautiful with impressive fins (lyretail, hifin swords, sailfin mollies, guppytail mollies ). Unfortunately, these fish are very easy to breed and also prone to producing "squeaker" males. Males that mature MUCH earlier than normal/larger males, as early as 4-8 weeks at 1" compared to 3", 4" and even 5" "bull" males that take many months to mature. Pretty cool when you think about it in a natural setting, but a pain if you're trying to raise the best fish you can, as they eventually make the line smaller. I realize folks want smaller tangs and such, but molly and sword folks want them beefy with gaudy fins They're also not the type of fish that can be fed flake once or twice a day and grow to their best. Point being, for these and many other reasons, you can't walk into a fish store or find a hobbyist (who is reasonably sane, at least ) who has mollies like this anymore:

 

[Wildreefs]

Very interesting question. But I think when it comes to parasites no fish is immune to it and will all be just as accessible to getting them equally. In the ocean they have a vast amount of dilution. But I think in a closed system a wild caught and captive bred will both be the same so long as the diets are the same.

I'll start my thoughts off with this is pure speculation on my part. lol

OK I would think and maybe I am wrong here but it seems that i alot of captive breed fish breeders are on the coast and use NSW? maybe not all but I bet some do. its a way to keep cost down. so maybe they are exposed to some stuff.

would be nice to hear from breeders like ORA, boita etc.

its an very interesting topic tho as i want to get a CB regal angel for my soon to be tank and it would be a shame if i lost it.

Good chance you will lose it. I have lost several, at the same time keep a wild regal. I know some stores that stay away from them now.

the only time I’ve seen them live longer is when a places has like 10-15 of them , isolated, no other competition, barebones stock tank type set up.

and by the way, you just did hear from someone in this thread who works or represents a breeder/distributor

 

[areefer01]

Good chance you will lose it. I have lost several, at the same time keep a wild regal. I know some stores that stay away from them now.

With regards to your comment 'Good chance you will lose it' how so?

the only time I’ve seen them live longer is when a places has like 10-15 of them , isolated, no other competition, barebones stock tank type set up.

Are you keeping track or records of everyone who purchases captive bred stock? Point of sale, source, etc? One heck of an assumption on your part.

and by the way, you just did hear from someone in this thread who works or represents a breeder/distributor

In this thread and a few others. Is there a concern?

 

[Wildreefs]

With regards to your comment 'Good chance you will lose it' how so?



Are you keeping track or records of everyone who purchases captive bred stock? Point of sale, source, etc? One heck of an assumption on your part.



In this thread and a few others. Is there a concern?

Woah , the hostility.

to your last post, a post was made I wish the companies would chime in on here. I said they do, in this very thread actually.

And no, I am not keeping tabs. I am using common sense, where are the photos of the grow outs, if 3-4 inch fish are out there, let’s see them.

I inquired to two different at vendors who had advertised quarantined Bali captive angels. Both said to me we no longer bring those in or offer them. When pressed why, the losses are front and center.

And I’m sorry but if I lose 2 out of 2 yellow tangs, captive, within 6 weeks, but prior to that never lost a wild before 2 years, let alone 6 weeks, what part of this is difficult to comprehend.

lastly, search in here cb multi bar angels. See how. Any people are in there 3rd, 4th attempt.

simple, if there successful, let’s see the grow out like Poma labs fish. They produce I’m guessing 10-12 times the amount if fish. But somehow all you ever see is adult Poma bred angels.

 

[Wildreefs]

With regards to your comment 'Good chance you will lose it' how so?



Are you keeping track or records of everyone who purchases captive bred stock? Point of sale, source, etc? One heck of an assumption on your part.



In this thread and a few others. Is there a concern?

I see your a fanboy, regals always a treat, little biased I see.

 

[areefer01]

I see your a fanboy, regals always a treat, little biased I see.

So you are calling names, although light ones, with someone who either asks for clarity on your statement or disagrees? You really have no data to support such a blanket statement of 'Good chance you will lose it'...

Am I a fanboy, your term, not mine, of captive bred and/or raised? If that means a purchaser of or believe in the reason why they do it then yes. Fanboy, shill, call me whatever name that suits your fancy. I do believe it is the future of this hobby. We could stop all wild imports of coral and ornamental fish and it wouldn't impact we the hobbyist outside product selection and maybe price for a bit. Think of it like agriculture. That is another debate.

Is it perfect? Probably not. Will it be? Hard to say. Bali, Biota, and ORA are doing good. There are also some hobbyist breeding marine outside of designer clowns (Marine Betas for example).

To your last point I do not own a regal. If I was to then I would buy captive bred. Why? Because:

A. It makes me feel good
B. I can buy direct without contaminants of the supply chain to reduce risk
C. Eating prepared foods of "known" brand that I can either buy or already have on hand
D. Estimated age of fish is known vs Wild

I do not quarantine. I am not good at it nor do I have the space. I prefer to buy direct from the source with my current displays age and/or age of some of my fish. That leaves me from buying direct from vetted QT venders or captive bred/raised direct.

I do own:
ORA Yellow Assessor
Biota pink square anthias, gold lined rabbit, links goby, starry goby, matted filefish, radial filefish

Wild: Clownfish, pajama cardinals, zosters butterfly, pyramid butterfly, copperband butterfly

Next?

 

[areefer01]

Woah , the hostility.

to your last post, a post was made I wish the companies would chime in on here. I said they do, in this very thread actually.

And no, I am not keeping tabs. I am using common sense, where are the photos of the grow outs, if 3-4 inch fish are out there, let’s see them.

I inquired to two different at vendors who had advertised quarantined Bali captive angels. Both said to me we no longer bring those in or offer them. When pressed why, the losses are front and center.

And I’m sorry but if I lose 2 out of 2 yellow tangs, captive, within 6 weeks, but prior to that never lost a wild before 2 years, let alone 6 weeks, what part of this is difficult to comprehend.

lastly, search in here cb multi bar angels. See how. Any people are in there 3rd, 4th attempt.

simple, if there successful, let’s see the grow out like Poma labs fish. They produce I’m guessing 10-12 times the amount if fish. But somehow all you ever see is adult Poma bred angels.

No hostility - merely asking for data. It was a bold claim. With regards to search forum I'm aware of some of the posts but the flip side of the question is how many have them and don't post here or on any other platform? Thus the keeping tabs part. Remove fish from our talk and insert product vendor. Neither of us know how many are out there nor their mortality rates. I do not nor claim to.

I can't speak for Poma labs. In fact I can't speak for ORA, Bali, or Biota outside of what I own and my own experience. I do know someone who has a Regal and it is aging very nicely in his display that was purchased through his LFS that sourced it from Biota. Does one success mean there is 100%? No, of course not.

I guess the long and short of it is we don't know a lot about the hobbyist systems nor supply chain if that was the purchase point. There was a thread somewhere discussing captive bred/raised vs QT vs natural and how the immune system isn't developed. Again - I don't know but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that 'you will probably lose it'.

Hopefully this makes sense as well as the post above.

 

[Spare time]

I think there is a misconception to how the immune system works. When I am less busy, I'll come back to this thread and write out a big section on the immune system if anyone is interested

 

[Wildreefs]

No hostility - merely asking for data. It was a bold claim. With regards to search forum I'm aware of some of the posts but the flip side of the question is how many have them and don't post here or on any other platform? Thus the keeping tabs part. Remove fish from our talk and insert product vendor. Neither of us know how many are out there nor their mortality rates. I do not nor claim to.

I can't speak for Poma labs. In fact I can't speak for ORA, Bali, or Biota outside of what I own and my own experience. I do know someone who has a Regal and it is aging very nicely in his display that was purchased through his LFS that sourced it from Biota. Does one success mean there is 100%? No, of course not.

I guess the long and short of it is we don't know a lot about the hobbyist systems nor supply chain if that was the purchase point. There was a thread somewhere discussing captive bred/raised vs QT vs natural and how the immune system isn't developed. Again - I don't know but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that 'you will probably lose it'.

Hopefully this makes sense as well as the post above.

I’m sure there are some that live and grow. Just seems the percentage is not better than wilds, as evidence when you try to obtain a qt one, they will tell you they only deal with the wilds now.

my whole point is cb is not equal across the board. Just like there are less then desirable dog breeders, I think ba is the puppy mill compared to someone like ora or Poma .
And for too long they have been running under the guise of being hardy,

 

[saltyhog]

My experience with CB fish has not been particularly encouraging. All that I've acquired have been incredibly small on arrival and not very quick to adapt to life in an aquarium with lots of other species of fish. Of the 4 I've ordered only 1 has survived. That was a Dejongi Basslet. He was so small when he arrived I placed him in my 25 gallon lagoon with no other fish. That was a year and a half ago and he's thriving. He does have a "birth defect" with a malformed gill cover but is other wise beautiful.

 

[Wildreefs]

So you are calling names, although light ones, with someone who either asks for clarity on your statement or disagrees? You really have no data to support such a blanket statement of 'Good chance you will lose it'...

Am I a fanboy, your term, not mine, of captive bred and/or raised? If that means a purchaser of or believe in the reason why they do it then yes. Fanboy, shill, call me whatever name that suits your fancy. I do believe it is the future of this hobby. We could stop all wild imports of coral and ornamental fish and it wouldn't impact we the hobbyist outside product selection and maybe price for a bit. Think of it like agriculture. That is another debate.

Is it perfect? Probably not. Will it be? Hard to say. Bali, Biota, and ORA are doing good. There are also some hobbyist breeding marine outside of designer clowns (Marine Betas for example).

To your last point I do not own a regal. If I was to then I would buy captive bred. Why? Because:

A. It makes me feel good
B. I can buy direct without contaminants of the supply chain to reduce risk
C. Eating prepared foods of "known" brand that I can either buy or already have on hand
D. Estimated age of fish is known vs Wild

I do not quarantine. I am not good at it nor do I have the space. I prefer to buy direct from the source with my current displays age and/or age of some of my fish. That leaves me from buying direct from vetted QT venders or captive bred/raised direct.

I do own:
ORA Yellow Assessor
Biota pink square anthias, gold lined rabbit, links goby, starry goby, matted filefish, radial filefish

Wild: Clownfish, pajama cardinals, zosters butterfly, pyramid butterfly, copperband butterfly

Next?

To section A. It did make me feel good too, until I realized they just aren’t living. And when I ask around to see what I, me, myself could be doing wrong, I get response like I’ve given up on them, won’t bring them in anymore, or search on here and see day one arrived and beautiful, month later just lost the regal etc. far too common now that I’m looking.
On to B.
Without the risk of contaminants?the fish shipped here to stores, wholesalers, certain do mix these fish with wild. For every one that has a dedicated system, there are 10 stores who do not. Also, ba fish are raised in ocean water, not sterile by any means. Kinda like maricultured corals not being the same as aquaculture in artificial seawater conditions

C. Not all have been Shown to eat, get thin and frail, or simply don’t eat enough to sustain themselves. Hobbyist is much different than say a place that feeds all throughout the day and does massive water changes to compensate. Raising seahorses is a lot like that, the average hobbyist doesn’t have the time or desire to do that. Like raising discus and doing 50 percent water changes every day to rein over all the waste and growth indicators in the water

and D.

fair point, but where are the non 1 inch ones? You know if one, so between the 2 of us, there is at least 1 out there.

these fish are less than $100 bucks to ship here from BA on the import list. When they first started doing here, some places had them for 6-700 , talk about gouging. The key was to move them fast enough so they die once another person put up the paper for them.

 

[Wildreefs]

My experience with CB fish has not been particularly encouraging. All that I've acquired have been incredibly small on arrival and not very quick to adapt to life in an aquarium with lots of other species of fish. Of the 4 I've ordered only 1 has survived. That was a Dejongi Basslet. He was so small when he arrived I placed him in my 25 gallon lagoon with no other fish. That was a year and a half ago and he's thriving. He does have a "birth defect" with a malformed gill cover but is other wise beautiful.

25 percent success rate…who’d be happy with that? I’m with you