Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[Wildreefs]

Discus are funny that way. The Stendker family (German) has been breeding discus for nearly 60 years with the last wild fish brought into their hatchery nearly 30 years ago to cross into new strain. Nice fish by all accounts, but like you said, mix them with an Asian discus and the results won't be good.

that is true, but I think it happens even at a quicker level, in hobbyist settings as well.

When I had discus, (got tired of the upkeep on a planter tank, given away they went) I lived near a place that just did discus, and they were considered top 3 in the country. It was a store, yet 95 percent of their sales were online and shipped. I first bought 3 from there, no issues for 6 months. I went back and wanted 3 more, the guy told me you take a changes with bacterial infection mixing. I said how do, the 3 I have came from you, he said yes, but, some strains there have changed, the microbes may be different, so anytime you add fish with there bacteria species, to now mine, which is most likely different, you run the risk. Ended up gettting the 3, and within a week I was using salt and abx in the tank. Grant it discus may be more sensitive, but biology should still be the same

 

[FSP]

That's pretty crazy. I'd have some doubts about that breeder, because that just shouldn't be the case if they're all really his fish.

 

[FeliciaM]

A set up that includes a harem of leopard wrasses, a wild regal, an Achilles tang, purple queens anthias. 150 gallon tank, most acropora

It's tough to say without a lot more information what might have happened. Just because they were all CB doesn't mean that's why they died. Was there something else they had in common that your other fish didn't? Were they different species? Were they all very young fish? Did you use any medications on them while they were young and still developing? When you put them into your display, did you use an acclimation box or another method to help them get acquainted with the resident fish with less aggression? If you use a quarantine tank, did you make sure to keep it clean of detritus and organic waste at all times? IME, a captive bred fish compared to a wild caught fish of the same species and age with the same level of care is going to be hardier and better adapted to life in captivity.

 

[Biota_Marine]

And no, I am not keeping tabs. I am using common sense, where are the photos of the grow outs, if 3-4 inch fish are out there, let’s see them.

Majority of our brood stock at our facilities are F2, F3, and in the case of our mandarins even F4 (obviously different parents and lineages to make sure there's no genetics bottlenecking or combination FX with wild). Not only are the easy enough to grow out to 3-4" fish but healthy enough to start spawning after just a few months. Specifically with our mandarins we get tons of photos and videos from customers that have them healthy enough to spawn in aquariums. Yellow Tang are on F2, Coral beauties F2/F3, ect.

Similarly with Bali Aquarich angelfish, there are times I buy new hybrids from Mr. Su and they are on the more expensive and niche side and I have them at our facility for months. The most recent example is a pair of Flagfin x Goldflake hybrids I had in a 90G tank for 8 month before I finally sold to a customer who needed some larger angelfish in his system. They were 4-5" when we shipped them out. I wouldn't take an expensive risk with no customer lined up with a wild caught fish. Right now I have 2 maze angelfish from Bali Aquarich hanging out in our systems at 3+" for the right customers. Here's a video when first introduced to his aquarium.

And I’m sorry but if I lose 2 out of 2 yellow tangs, captive, within 6 weeks, but prior to that never lost a wild before 2 years, let alone 6 weeks, what part of this is difficult to comprehend.

I'm sorry to hear you lost these fish but I can say this is the heavy minority here. Typically, when customers lose animals and contact us we also run through what may have went wrong (QT issues, feeding, aggression, ect.) and can pinpoint and help the hobbyist have more success in the future. We don't claim to know everything but we have a pretty diverse staff that's usually pretty good at pinpointing issues and solving them for the future.

I once was selling our coral beauty to a store and he completely lost 2 separate batches within 48 hours. We went through and diagnosed what was happening and it was an acclimation and system parameter issue. He was utilizing high levels of a copper while many dwarf angelfish do not tolerate that well and drip acclimating which we recommend against. Once solved he never had another problem with them again. Many times both stores and hobbyists tend to stick with what's been working and sometimes we need to change to accommodate specific needs and parameters that work best to have success.

. Neither of us know how many are out there nor their mortality rates. I do not nor claim to.

I can say my last 3 shipments from Bali Aquarich I haven't lost a single angelfish in transit or shortly after transit. I have lost a few clownfish and some batfish (even captive-bred they're very sensitive) but his angelfish are incredibly hardy. I wouldn't say we're the largest purchaser of animals from Bali Aquarich in the US but we're probably pretty close.

If what was said above is true that some others don't purchase them anymore because they have difficulties then that's actually better for us. I love getting the fish in and opening every bag is like Christmas for me especially when we get access to things I don't see often (most recently the golden angelfish, I've been sending videos to Felicia every few days because of how cool they are). Maybe it's because myself and my team are more adaptable and most of us are marine biologists/scientists, or something as simple as a better flight path but we love Bali Aquarich fish here and I can't say enough great things about the work Mr. Su is doing there.

As someone with knowledge of wild caught survival rates and shipping rates these survival rates are significantly better.

I mean.. if you buy a tiny growing fish that needs to eat often to grow.. and you can't do that and can't provide the foods it needs. Do not buy it.

If you ever had a baby or a kitten or a puppy.. they are voracious eaters. Little fish seem to want to eat often too but can be more difficult then a bag of kibble.

I wish they would grow them all bigger but few people want to pay even more for the fish.

^^^^ This 100%. I tell everyone who purchases our fish that we feed 3-5x a day at our facility and typically in the wild many species are constantly grazing and eating so feeding small amounts more often is so much better for fish health. It more mimics natural behavior and most hobbyists tend to overfeed. This is why we love using products like nori and masstick.

We do have medium size of a few species, mostly gobies, filefish, and yellow tang but small sizing outsells larger sizing at almost 10 to 1.

I don’t think parasites like ich are the issue. I think it’s the bacteria, when I did discus, any time you imported discus from Germany, and mixed them with your “healthy discus” bacterial infections are almost a staple. Because a fish hasn’t been exposed to all the ones in tanks wilds bring in. Like a first year teacher all of sidden exposed to those germs in school.

They do, and yes I said that. Not sure if that will grow the same amount of bacteria we have in our tanks, bio life per square inch etc . I’m not scientist, but usually a cut on your hand, going into a fish tank has a better chance of infection then swimming in the ocean. Everything is more condensed in a reef tank closed loop system . Plus I’m sure they have some UV to put a dent in some of the water borne bacteria

This is pretty hard to quantify but I'd love for someone from a company like Aquabiomics or Hydrospace to chime in here as my scientific background isn't in that field. I'd guess we have a much higher diversity of bacteria in the oceans but in aquarium higher concentrations of things like Vibrio which is what would likely cause that infection on a cut hand just because the conditions are better suited for certain bacterium.

That being said, many breeders in the industry (as said by a few above) utilize natural seawater and it can vary on sterilization processes. In addition to that natural seawater bacterial diversity they also see captive concentrations of various bacteria during larval, grow-outs, and shipping stages or wherever they might have closed circulation loops throughout their individual process. So if anything they end up with the best/worst of both worlds being subjected to a high variety of things [the same pathogens as wild caught AND the same pathogens fish in captive systems are commonly exposed to] and a high concentration. Both hobbyists and breeders use UVs (or should) so I don't think that factors much.

You'd think it wouldn't cost a whole lot more to grow them out just a little so they weren't quite so fragile at first...i know shops generally charge on the basis of size but for the breeding companies it seems like it would be worth it if it increases survival rate after purchase

We discuss this a lot internally and I've posted a few times about this over the past few years. If I ever get feedback from customers to grow items larger or offer multiple sizes we usually do it or customers struggling with success. Our yellow tang sizing now is almost double what it was around 3 years ago. Our mandarins are around .25" larger (I know its not a huge leap but they grow very slowly in higher densities but enough to make a difference). As our customer base grows we're less niche and varying levels of experience and knowledge enter into play so what might be easy and common knowledge to some may be difficult and unknown to others. We communicate with many of our customers to help bridge that gap to increase success.

The goal of every breeder is to have customers have success with their animals. We didn't spend months nurturing and growing out these animals to have them die when they get to a customer's tank. It's heart breaking when customers don't have success especially with difficult fish we don't breed a lot of. We keep tabs on the Yurple tangs we sold because they were so cool and personable I would have loved to keep one if I didn't have to sell them. We bred 5 red Coris wrasse about 4 years ago and I still keep tabs on a few of them (2 of them were the only fish to survive a tank crash in California). The first Golden angelfish we were able to buy from Bali Aquarich last year went to a rare fish collector in Orlando who still keeps us updated. We also share videos and photos from customers frequently on our Facebook and Instagram, and we appreciate everyone who keeps us updated about their pets.

 

[areefer01]

^^^^ This 100%. I tell everyone who purchases our fish that we feed 3-5x a day at our facility and typically in the wild many species are constantly grazing and eating so feeding small amounts more often is so much better for fish health. It more mimics natural behavior and most hobbyists tend to overfeed. This is why we love using products like nori and masstick.

I will say that every fish I have purchased that "I" know is captive bred and / or raised that I do the same. I feed heavy anyway but when I bring in the youngsters it is a constant feeding. So much that my phosphates usually climb over 1 ppm. When I received my 4 pink squares from you it peaked at 1.4 ppm

What I do, and what works for me, is to take my normal feed and split out them by types and mark the cup. I feed a little and observe what the new fish are eating and make a note. I then bring out the dry food and do the same. Pinch of each type of what I use, and what you document on your portal that they eat, observe and again make notes. I do this for a couple days until I'm comfortable that:

They are eating
I know what they eat
Their favorite

This worked extremely well recently with the Anthias because one of them was more shy than the others (i purchased 4) and wouldn't eat anything. It wasn't until I brought out the TDO small and BAM - back in business. So every day that is what I would feed it and it is doing amazing well now. Still smaller than the other three but now more acceptable to other frozen foods which is nice. As long as it is smaller pieces - not sure why but that is her preference.

TL; DR - feed often. Mark what you feed and take notes. Keep on hand what vendor feeds as a backup. If small place in observation tank (i use my refugium for this).

Pink squares with my ORA yellow assessor checking out the ladies Virtual hug (if ok with you) to you and your team.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Please explain this better.

Stress in fish can be measured by evaluating the corticoid steroid levels in their blood or feces. That requires a lab of course. A simpler means to measure acute stress is by evaluating changes in the fish's respiration rate. This does not work as well for chronic stress however.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Majority of our brood stock at our facilities are F2, F3, and in the case of our mandarins even F4 (obviously different parents and lineages to make sure there's no genetics bottlenecking or combination FX with wild). Not only are the easy enough to grow out to 3-4" fish but healthy enough to start spawning after just a few months. Specifically with our mandarins we get tons of photos and videos from customers that have them healthy enough to spawn in aquariums. Yellow Tang are on F2, Coral beauties F2/F3, ect.

Similarly with Bali Aquarich angelfish, there are times I buy new hybrids from Mr. Su and they are on the more expensive and niche side and I have them at our facility for months. The most recent example is a pair of Flagfin x Goldflake hybrids I had in a 90G tank for 8 month before I finally sold to a customer who needed some larger angelfish in his system. They were 4-5" when we shipped them out. I wouldn't take an expensive risk with no customer lined up with a wild caught fish. Right now I have 2 maze angelfish from Bali Aquarich hanging out in our systems at 3+" for the right customers. Here's a video when first introduced to his aquarium.

I'm sorry to hear you lost these fish but I can say this is the heavy minority here. Typically, when customers lose animals and contact us we also run through what may have went wrong (QT issues, feeding, aggression, ect.) and can pinpoint and help the hobbyist have more success in the future. We don't claim to know everything but we have a pretty diverse staff that's usually pretty good at pinpointing issues and solving them for the future.

I once was selling our coral beauty to a store and he completely lost 2 separate batches within 48 hours. We went through and diagnosed what was happening and it was an acclimation and system parameter issue. He was utilizing high levels of a copper while many dwarf angelfish do not tolerate that well and drip acclimating which we recommend against. Once solved he never had another problem with them again. Many times both stores and hobbyists tend to stick with what's been working and sometimes we need to change to accommodate specific needs and parameters that work best to have success.

I can say my last 3 shipments from Bali Aquarich I haven't lost a single angelfish in transit or shortly after transit. I have lost a few clownfish and some batfish (even captive-bred they're very sensitive) but his angelfish are incredibly hardy. I wouldn't say we're the largest purchaser of animals from Bali Aquarich in the US but we're probably pretty close.

If what was said above is true that some others don't purchase them anymore because they have difficulties then that's actually better for us. I love getting the fish in and opening every bag is like Christmas for me especially when we get access to things I don't see often (most recently the golden angelfish, I've been sending videos to Felicia every few days because of how cool they are). Maybe it's because myself and my team are more adaptable and most of us are marine biologists/scientists, or something as simple as a better flight path but we love Bali Aquarich fish here and I can't say enough great things about the work Mr. Su is doing there.

As someone with knowledge of wild caught survival rates and shipping rates these survival rates are significantly better.

^^^^ This 100%. I tell everyone who purchases our fish that we feed 3-5x a day at our facility and typically in the wild many species are constantly grazing and eating so feeding small amounts more often is so much better for fish health. It more mimics natural behavior and most hobbyists tend to overfeed. This is why we love using products like nori and masstick.

We do have medium size of a few species, mostly gobies, filefish, and yellow tang but small sizing outsells larger sizing at almost 10 to 1.


This is pretty hard to quantify but I'd love for someone from a company like Aquabiomics or Hydrospace to chime in here as my scientific background isn't in that field. I'd guess we have a much higher diversity of bacteria in the oceans but in aquarium higher concentrations of things like Vibrio which is what would likely cause that infection on a cut hand just because the conditions are better suited for certain bacterium.

That being said, many breeders in the industry (as said by a few above) utilize natural seawater and it can vary on sterilization processes. In addition to that natural seawater bacterial diversity they also see captive concentrations of various bacteria during larval, grow-outs, and shipping stages or wherever they might have closed circulation loops throughout their individual process. So if anything they end up with the best/worst of both worlds being subjected to a high variety of things [the same pathogens as wild caught AND the same pathogens fish in captive systems are commonly exposed to] and a high concentration. Both hobbyists and breeders use UVs (or should) so I don't think that factors much.

We discuss this a lot internally and I've posted a few times about this over the past few years. If I ever get feedback from customers to grow items larger or offer multiple sizes we usually do it or customers struggling with success. Our yellow tang sizing now is almost double what it was around 3 years ago. Our mandarins are around .25" larger (I know its not a huge leap but they grow very slowly in higher densities but enough to make a difference). As our customer base grows we're less niche and varying levels of experience and knowledge enter into play so what might be easy and common knowledge to some may be difficult and unknown to others. We communicate with many of our customers to help bridge that gap to increase success.

The goal of every breeder is to have customers have success with their animals. We didn't spend months nurturing and growing out these animals to have them die when they get to a customer's tank. It's heart breaking when customers don't have success especially with difficult fish we don't breed a lot of. We keep tabs on the Yurple tangs we sold because they were so cool and personable I would have loved to keep one if I didn't have to sell them. We bred 5 red Coris wrasse about 4 years ago and I still keep tabs on a few of them (2 of them were the only fish to survive a tank crash in California). The first Golden angelfish we were able to buy from Bali Aquarich last year went to a rare fish collector in Orlando who still keeps us updated. We also share videos and photos from customers frequently on our Facebook and Instagram, and we appreciate everyone who keeps us updated about their pets.

Thanks for your post.

I strongly disagree with the premise that captive raised fish, by virtue of not being exposed to parasites, are somehow naïve to infection and therefore more prone to getting sick. Disease immunity from prior exposure is only partial, and it is fleeting. Wild caught fish have no innate immunity protecting them. It is ALL about exposure, environmental stressors and propagule pressure. This puts all fish on the same playing field in our aquariums.

I've never had any major disease issues with captive raised fish that I acquired direct from a propagation facility (or those I raised myself). I do worry that if these fish are subsequently tanked with wild caught fish - either at the wholesale or retail level, that "all bets are off" and they can easily acquire diseases from the multitude of wild fish passing through the facility. IMO - at that point, those captive raised fish are no better or worse than any wild caught fish. Buy direct from the breeder if possible!

Jay

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Just curious if captive bred fish are more susceptible to diseases since I'd assume they're generally exposed much less to diseases and parasites when being bred and raised vs wild caught fish. I love the idea of captive breeding personally (although the price tag kinda deters me from going with captive bred). Since wild caught individuals are exposed to so many diseases and parasites naturally, it seems like they would be more hardy in general though...thoughts?

Captive bred are much less likely to come with disease and are more accustomed to aquarium life and food. And there is no evidence to suggest fish are immune to any parasites as that generally doesn’t happen with any species.

 

[MnFish1]

Captive bred are much less likely to come with disease and are more accustomed to aquarium life and food. And there is no evidence to suggest fish are immune to any parasites as that generally doesn’t happen with any species.

I disagree with you. 1. There is evidence that fish have multiple levels of immunity from non-specific to specific (Thus the research on a cryptocaryon vaccine for fish farming). 2. Fish that are likely to succumb to illness from a tank bred system have not been exposed to anything. 3. There is no evidence that 'Captive bred fish are MUCH less likely to come with disease' - since many 'captive bred fish' - have been sold from an LFS. If they come directly from a sterile breeder - yes thats true - but if you happen to have CI in your tank, your captive bred fish may not do as well.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I disagree with you. 1. There is evidence that fish have multiple levels of immunity from non-specific to specific (Thus the research on a cryptocaryon vaccine for fish farming). 2. Fish that are likely to succumb to illness from a tank bred system have not been exposed to anything. 3. There is no evidence that 'Captive bred fish are MUCH less likely to come with disease' - since many 'captive bred fish' - have been sold from an LFS. If they come directly from a sterile breeder - yes thats true - but if you happen to have CI in your tank, your captive bred fish may not do as well.

They are virtually guaranteed to come without disease from the source. That’s what I was talking about. Show me a wild caught specimen where that is in any way possible?

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I disagree with you. 1. There is evidence that fish have multiple levels of immunity from non-specific to specific (Thus the research on a cryptocaryon vaccine for fish farming). 2. Fish that are likely to succumb to illness from a tank bred system have not been exposed to anything. 3. There is no evidence that 'Captive bred fish are MUCH less likely to come with disease' - since many 'captive bred fish' - have been sold from an LFS. If they come directly from a sterile breeder - yes thats true - but if you happen to have CI in your tank, your captive bred fish may not

I disagree with you. 1. There is evidence that fish have multiple levels of immunity from non-specific to specific (Thus the research on a cryptocaryon vaccine for fish farming). 2. Fish that are likely to succumb to illness from a tank bred system have not been exposed to anything. 3. There is no evidence that 'Captive bred fish are MUCH less likely to come with disease' - since many 'captive bred fish' - have been sold from an LFS. If they come directly from a sterile breeder - yes thats true - but if you happen to have CI in your tank, your captive bred fish may not do as well.

What he said

“I strongly disagree with the premise that captive raised fish, by virtue of not being exposed to parasites, are somehow naïve to infection and therefore more prone to getting sick. Disease immunity from prior exposure is only partial, and it is fleeting. Wild caught fish have no innate immunity protecting them. It is ALL about exposure, environmental stressors and propagule pressure. This puts all fish on the same playing field in our aquariums.

I've never had any major disease issues with captive raised fish that I acquired direct from a propagation facility (or those I raised myself). I do worry that if these fish are subsequently tanked with wild caught fish - either at the wholesale or retail level, that "all bets are off" and they can easily acquire diseases from the multitude of wild fish passing through the facility. IMO - at that point, those captive raised fish are no better or worse than any wild caught fish. Buy direct from the breeder if possible!

Jay”

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What he said

“I strongly disagree with the premise that captive raised fish, by virtue of not being exposed to parasites, are somehow naïve to infection and therefore more prone to getting sick. Disease immunity from prior exposure is only partial, and it is fleeting. Wild caught fish have no innate immunity protecting them. It is ALL about exposure, environmental stressors and propagule pressure. This puts all fish on the same playing field in our aquariums.

I've never had any major disease issues with captive raised fish that I acquired direct from a propagation facility (or those I raised myself). I do worry that if these fish are subsequently tanked with wild caught fish - either at the wholesale or retail level, that "all bets are off" and they can easily acquire diseases from the multitude of wild fish passing through the facility. IMO - at that point, those captive raised fish are no better or worse than any wild caught fish. Buy direct from the breeder if possible!

Jay”

I carefully re-read my post, and I still stand behind it. I'm certainly not always right, and sometimes, when I'm in a hurry, I make errors, or make omissions to save some time, but in this case, I think my post still is accurate.

Jay

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I disagree with you. 1. There is evidence that fish have multiple levels of immunity from non-specific to specific (Thus the research on a cryptocaryon vaccine for fish farming). 2. Fish that are likely to succumb to illness from a tank bred system have not been exposed to anything. 3. There is no evidence that 'Captive bred fish are MUCH less likely to come with disease' - since many 'captive bred fish' - have been sold from an LFS. If they come directly from a sterile breeder - yes thats true - but if you happen to have CI in your tank, your captive bred fish may not do as well.

I’ve also bought enough wild caught fish in the past 20 years to know that they are getting ich and dying from it if they are exposed and not treated. I don’t practice ich management but something has to be done.

 

[Derrick0580]

I look at it this way…as children we get sick and are told it only helps boost our immune system. I would think a captive bred fish who has never been subjected to anything of the sort may more easily catch a parasite or disease due to being born and raised in a “bubble” so to speak. However since it seems that a lot of tank diseases begin with elevated stress levels and those same captive bred fish that are accustomed to tank life may not experience the same amount of stress of being bagged up and shipped as those taken from the ocean.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I look at it this way…as children we get sick and are told it only helps boost our immune system. I would think a captive bred fish who has never been subjected to anything of the sort may more easily catch a parasite or disease due to being born and raised in a “bubble” so to speak.

We were not catching parasites as children like lice and tapeworms and building immunity to them. We were catching microscopic virus’s and bacterial infection. It is not the same thing.

 

[danenelsen]

I would think so... I'm not an expert but I would think wild fish would have built up some immunities.

 

[Derrick0580]

I look at it this way…as children we get sick and are told it only helps boost our immune system. I would think a captive bred fish who has never been subjected to anything of the sort may more easily catch a parasite or disease due to being born and raised in a “bubble” so to speak.

We were not catching parasites as children like lice and tapeworms and building immunity to them. We were catching microscopic virus’s and bacterial infection. It is not the same thing.

I realize it’s not the same thing but I have always been told a healthy fish that’s happy and eating is less prone to ich and other external parasites than those that are stressed out. Nothing anyone can do about internal parasites other than medicate.

 

[MnFish1]

We were not catching parasites as children like lice and tapeworms and building immunity to them. We were catching microscopic virus’s and bacterial infection. It is not the same thing.

Actually, you are incorrect - at least with some parasites. Humans can develop immunity to parasites - and like fish - there are also innate (non-specific) proteins, etc in the GI tract that protect some people from parasites: https://academic.oup.com/intimm/article/30/3/91/4925811#

 

[MnFish1]

I realize it’s not the same thing but I have always been told a healthy fish that’s happy and eating is less prone to ich and other external parasites than those that are stressed out. Nothing anyone can do about internal parasites other than medicate.

One interesting thing to remember about parasites is that their job is not to 'kill' the host - but merely live off of them. It's is when they 'overgrow' that problems are caused. Some are even harmless. "

How many protozoa are in the human body?
At least 30 species of protozoa are known to infect the human body (Table 1). Some of these species are pathogenic while others have no detectable adverse effects or pathologies. Most humans have at least one species of protozoa inhabiting their bodies."

 

[Lionfish hunter]

One interesting thing to remember about parasites is that their job is not to 'kill' the host - but merely live off of them. It's is when they 'overgrow' that problems are caused. Some are even harmless. "

How many protozoa are in the human body?
At least 30 species of protozoa are known to infect the human body (Table 1). Some of these species are pathogenic while others have no detectable adverse effects or pathologies. Most humans have at least one species of protozoa inhabiting their bodies."

This may be true but they did not evolve to not kill their host in a tiny glass box. In the ocean the concentration of ich per million gallons is very small. While in an aquarium it reaches plague proportions in only a few gallons.