Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[Tamberav]

I think there is a misconception to how the immune system works. When I am less busy, I'll come back to this thread and write out a big section on the immune system if anyone is interested

Please do as I don't really agree with the whole... captive will get sicker because it hasn't seen ich before theory. I don't have anything to back it up though. I just think we are completely simplifying something that is probably wayyyyy more complicated then that.

I also figure the immune system isn't the only defense.. fish have slime coats as well.

 

[Tamberav]

I mean.. if you buy a tiny growing fish that needs to eat often to grow.. and you can't do that and can't provide the foods it needs. Do not buy it.

If you ever had a baby or a kitten or a puppy.. they are voracious eaters. Little fish seem to want to eat often too but can be more difficult then a bag of kibble.

I wish they would grow them all bigger but few people want to pay even more for the fish.

 

[Wildreefs]

Please do as I don't really agree with the whole... captive will get sicker because it hasn't seen ich before theory. I don't have anything to back it up though. I just think we are completely simplifying something that is probably wayyyyy more complicated then that.

I also figure the immune system isn't the only defense.. fish have slime coats as well.

I don’t think parasites like ich are the issue. I think it’s the bacteria, when I did discus, any time you imported discus from Germany, and mixed them with your “healthy discus” bacterial infections are almost a staple. Because a fish hasn’t been exposed to all the ones in tanks wilds bring in. Like a first year teacher all of sidden exposed to those germs in school.

 

[Tamberav]

I don’t think parasites like ich are the issue. I think it’s the bacteria, when I did discus, any time you imported discus from Germany, and mixed them with your “healthy discus” bacterial infections are almost a staple. Because a fish hasn’t been exposed to all the ones in tanks wilds bring in. Like a first year teacher all of sidden exposed to those germs in school.

Didn't you just say that BA uses ocean water? Might have been someone else.. idk.

 

[Wildreefs]

Didn't you just say that BA uses ocean water? Might have been someone else.. idk.

They do, and yes I said that. Not sure if that will grow the same amount of bacteria we have in our tanks, bio life per square inch etc . I’m not scientist, but usually a cut on your hand, going into a fish tank has a better chance of infection then swimming in the ocean. Everything is more condensed in a reef tank closed loop system . Plus I’m sure they have some UV to put a dent in some of the water borne bacteria

 

[Tamberav]

The complaint I see over and over with captive fish is problems feeding.. I would think they just starve since that is what people are complaining about. In tanks at the LFS they are bare bottom and finding food is easy. In a display they are mixed with many other establish voracious eaters and perhaps sand and high flow and finding a tiny pellet is difficult and intimidating. Maybe not all the tanks have adequate microfauna either.

I don't see any reason to think bacteria though a good theory. I say this because the ones I see alive are in some sort of conditioning tank or were in one before hitting the display.

 

[areefer01]

I don’t think parasites like ich are the issue. I think it’s the bacteria, when I did discus, any time you imported discus from Germany, and mixed them with your “healthy discus” bacterial infections are almost a staple. Because a fish hasn’t been exposed to all the ones in tanks wilds bring in. Like a first year teacher all of sidden exposed to those germs in school.

There is some interesting tidbits in what you are saying as we look at real life situations like what nurses are exposed to or veterans certain combat deployments or say even mothers breast feeding and immune systems. Totally can see that as it relates to wild vs captive bred, raised, synthetic vs natural sea water.

Not getting into either of our previous discussions earlier (see we do have some common ground) but I do not know how much assessments, studies, or papers have been done in this area. Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze nor do I know if it has been done for medical or population feeding ala seafood.

 

[hart24601]

Well if it counts for anything when velvet wiped out my entire system, several thousand dollars worth, the last to go were the captive bred. In fact I think I could have saved a couple of the CB if I had known it wasn’t ich and the very last survivor a CB goldflake I’m sure would have made it except I stupidly used seachem copper but there was some residual seachem prime in the tank and it made the copper toxic and killed it.

Now was it because the CB fish had better resistance or they fought it off because they were healthier? Or neither? I suspect it’s because the CB were in far better condition than imported wilds, but that’s just my opinion and I prefer CB unless horribly inbred for morphs.

 

[areefer01]

Well if it counts for anything when velvet wiped out my entire system, several thousand dollars worth, the last to go were the captive bred. In fact I think I could have saved a couple of the CB if I had known it wasn’t ich and the very last survivor a CB goldflake I’m sure would have made it except I stupidly used seachem copper but there was some residual seachem prime in the tank and it made the copper toxic and killed it.

Now was it because the CB fish had better resistance or they fought it off because they were healthier? Or neither? I suspect it’s because the CB were in far better condition than imported wilds, but that’s just my opinion and I prefer CB unless horribly inbred for morphs.

You have a post here I believe showing both Multibar and Goldflake, right? I thought I recall the post earlier in the year.

 

[Tamberav]

Well if it counts for anything when velvet wiped out my entire system, several thousand dollars worth, the last to go were the captive bred. In fact I think I could have saved a couple of the CB if I had known it wasn’t ich and the very last survivor a CB goldflake I’m sure would have made it except I stupidly used seachem copper but there was some residual seachem prime in the tank and it made the copper toxic and killed it.

Now was it because the CB fish had better resistance or they fought it off because they were healthier? Or neither? I suspect it’s because the CB were in far better condition than imported wilds, but that’s just my opinion and I prefer CB unless horribly inbred for morphs.

Man... makes me so sad that happened. So sorry. Velvet sucks

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You'd think it wouldn't cost a whole lot more to grow them out just a little so they weren't quite so fragile at first...i know shops generally charge on the basis of size but for the breeding companies it seems like it would be worth it if it increases survival rate after purchase

 

[Tamberav]

You'd think it wouldn't cost a whole lot more to grow them out just a little so they weren't quite so fragile at first...i know shops generally charge on the basis of size but for the breeding companies it seems like it would be worth it if it increases survival rate after purchase

Well the breeding companies don't refund the money and I believe they grow very slow. Biota told me they got some larger multibars in and I took the largest one they had at the time. I would say silver dollar size.

Biota sells the food they eat on the website so I would encourage everyone to pick up a bottle with their fish. I got one from them and it ate that food much better then anything else. It is made by easy reefs and their masstick has been known to tempt picky eaters like copperbands, orange spotted filefish, and tamarin wrasses. So no reason to think the pellets made by them don't contain some sort of fish crack, ha!

 

[Wildreefs]

There is some interesting tidbits in what you are saying as we look at real life situations like what nurses are exposed to or veterans certain combat deployments or say even mothers breast feeding and immune systems. Totally can see that as it relates to wild vs captive bred, raised, synthetic vs natural sea water.

Not getting into either of our previous discussions earlier (see we do have some common ground) but I do not know how much assessments, studies, or papers have been done in this area. Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze nor do I know if it has been done for medical or population feeding ala seafood.

I don’t know the numbers, wish I had, and if right would have never bought a Bali aqua fish, let alone 10. Literally lost 3 this week, ate find day before, under rocks the next.

before I got my Poma blue line, I asked about 10 people on here and one other site who made a thread about getting them, and the ones who responded, 7 or 8, all said had for at least 7-8 months, going well. The flip side after my issues with the other maker, has been, had month, dropped, had 3 down to 1. Proof to me is in the writing, Bali fish , 0 guarantee, if biota sells, then 7 days. Poma gives you 30 days .

 

[Tamberav]

I don’t know the numbers, wish I had, and if right would have never bought a Bali aqua fish, let alone 10. Literally lost 3 this week, ate find day before, under rocks the next.

before I got my Poma blue line, I asked about 10 people on here and one other site who made a thread about getting them, and the ones who responded, 7 or 8, all said had for at least 7-8 months, going well. The flip side after my issues with the other maker, has been, had month, dropped, had 3 down to 1. Proof to me is in the writing, Bali fish , 0 guarantee, if biota sells, then 7 days. Poma gives you 30 days .

What kind of set up do you have?

What 10 fish did you lose?

 

[Wildreefs]

What kind of set up do you have?

What 10 fish did you lose?

A set up that includes a harem of leopard wrasses, a wild regal, an Achilles tang, purple queens anthias. 150 gallon tank, most acropora

 

[Tamberav]

A set up that includes a harem of leopard wrasses, a wild regal, an Achilles tang, purple queens anthias. 150 gallon tank, most acropora

Ok was jw... I saw some set ups very different from yours with captive tiny angels on another forum.

I was following them closely because who wants to waste $250 dollars.

I am pretty sure my multibar would die in my display, like 90% sure. My captive marine betta has been fine in the DT but it grew pretty fast compared to the multibar and spent a few months in a 25g growout first.. just wanted it eating bigger foods and coming out often before it hit the DT.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Aquaculture of Atlantic Salmon in pens in the ocean seems to be a biological risk that Washington State and Canada do not want to take anymore. At least one Aquaculture company has lost its license to produce in sea pens due to escape, disease, and prevention of cross breeding with Pacific Salmon. So this might be an indication of disease problems in high production Aquaculture. The amount of genetic malformations per hatch seems to be an avenue for disease as well. The result is all the Clown Fish that are now designer species which in the past has led to weakened species that develop novel diseases.

I honestly believe sustainable collection practices are the best way forward. The transport and acclimation process results in the greatest loss. Most of my past customers reduced their loss rates to 3% or less. Prior to central filtration systems and acclimation procedures the loss rates exceeded 30%. Only a limited number of fish are actually tank breed and raised. Some are collected during spawning cycles that are exploited by divers and collectors and then raised in tanks.

Interesting topic but there seems to be no actual data on captive breeding versus collection.

 

[FSP]

I don’t think parasites like ich are the issue. I think it’s the bacteria, when I did discus, any time you imported discus from Germany, and mixed them with your “healthy discus” bacterial infections are almost a staple. Because a fish hasn’t been exposed to all the ones in tanks wilds bring in.

Discus are funny that way. The Stendker family (German) has been breeding discus for nearly 60 years with the last wild fish brought into their hatchery nearly 30 years ago to cross into new strain. Nice fish by all accounts, but like you said, mix them with an Asian discus and the results won't be good.

 

[FeliciaM]

I think this is highly dependent on where you are in the world when you say "freshly imported"

I meant this to differentiate between "conditioned and been in captivity for years" wild caught and "just arrived in the LFS" wild caught.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I meant this to differentiate between "conditioned and been in captivity for years" wild caught and "just arrived in the LFS" wild caught.

Oh ok I see...i was just saying that even "just arrived at the LFS" fish health is highly dependent upon where in the world the LFS is though...for example, where i am the transportation time is much, much less so is it really that they are less immune or that they're just really stressed from the transport which has lowered immunity possibly