Are Chinese LED's bad/inferior?

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Please for the fish do not program the Lightning Storm...

I saw one you tube of a storm and the poor clown fish was sacred in a different place at every flash.

I have had friends showing this off only to find that expensive wrasse as carpet jerky the next morning...

Seriously it really freaks out the fish...

Bill

Hmm... I'd never thought of that. I never had the whole cloud/storm thing...couldn't justify the price, but this really is a valid point and good to think through.

 

[Pappy]

That's another BS statement. Don't blanket 1 crappy blue/white fixture as all chinese lights being crappy. There's dozens of brands and different led layouts.

I've built my own Cree XTE, Luxeon, AND Semiled fixture. It was a very nice light that looked great, but it was overkill. I had to run it at 50% max and could still hit 300 par at the sandbed.

I'm now using the chinese lights with a ratio of leds that outputs the same exact look, using Bridgelux leds instead, hitting 380 on the sandbed at 100%, which is still high and ticks my brains off midday. 4500k for neutral white, 420-430nm violet, 660nm red, royal blue, and 475nm blue. It looks the same, grows coral the same, colors up the coral better (than a retail fixture without violets), because there is no Cree violet yet, and was less than the cost of my DIY build and covers a wider area. The only difference? You use two bridgelux leds at 2.5w, for every 1 Cree at 3-5W. A nice looking case looks a lot better than my DIY attempt as well. The build matched a Radion Pro in color, and beat it handily in output, so it costs around $900 to get that look on your own without DIY. The same good quality chinese light costs around $180. They are out there. The old ones can even be modified with new leds to fix their color and output (usually).

The Crees will actually lose intensity over time quicker getting 1500mah into them compared to two Bridgelux/Epistar at 700mah. Since the Crees were running at 5W, the fixture also gets hot to the touch. The Radion Pro gets hot to the touch too. The chinese lights barely get warm.

Would I have liked Cree instead? Sure, but not at double the cost. If they cost as much as the Bridgelux to use, it would be a no brainer to use Cree instead. The good Bridgelux/Epistar leds are not crappy by any means.

I am only speaking from experience and opinion on what I've seen. I cannot say I'm an led guru by any means and everything you wrote is like me trying to read Chinese (pun intended lol). I've seen numerous Chinese fixtures in person and they all look like crap (only my opinion and apologies for any offense). But then again I also think the maxpect and ai sols look like crap also. My DIY that was built for me with reds, greens, royal blue, blue, and cool white has hands down produced better colors and spectrum than any other fixture in 2 counties (others opinions also not just mine).
As far as efficiency I know people who've bought evolutions already having problems within 2 years. And the dude that built mine hasn't had an issue for 5-6 years now. He was in at the beginning of this and is an engineer at ge. He experimented with various different options bridgelux and Cree and stands by Cree and only Cree.

 

[Pappy]

Hmm...based on the feedback in this thread, I'd say the chinese units have proven themselves--at least in the short term, and LEDs in generally haven't been proven long term (as was pointed out by someone else in this thread). If someone wants to buy name brand lights, then go for it, but don't do it because you think the others "don't work." Do it because the name brand light has some feature or something that you prefer over the bargain brand.

It's kind of like buying clothes. Maybe you buy your shirts at Abercrombie and I buy mine at Wal-Mart. you might say yours are name brand, but please don't try to say that your shirt "works" any better than mine. :-) They both perform the same function...yours just looks trendier.

I love the clothing example! Lol my $100 lucky jeans will far out survive the washes the your $10 Walmart jeans will survive. With anything in life you get what you pay for has always been my experience. For example it took me 6 months to convince my wife why the Honda mower I wanted for $700 was better than the toro for $200. Toro throw away in 2 years where my Honda 5 years old still starts on first pull every time!

Besides all of these examples why support china don't we already owe them enough $$$?!

 

[Pappy]

Can you toss us some pics of your tank...

Bill

+1 proof is always in the pudding. There was a guy recently telling everyone how bridgelux and epistar and whatever were the best with all this scientific mumbo jumbo but I looked at his build thread and thought why the heck are you giving advice on anything?!!! Think there were 10 corals and they were alive at best. This person I will never out and remain anonymous in who it is but they shouldn't be offering input and well just leave it at that.

I was given the advice when I first got into hobby that has always proved to be priceless. "Before you follow anyone's advice look at their tank first".

Granted this is just a hobby and I understand that however there often are people offering input who've no idea what they're doing.

 

[iTzJu]

I love the clothing example! Lol my $100 lucky jeans will far out survive the washes the your $10 Walmart jeans will survive. With anything in life you get what you pay for has always been my experience. For example it took me 6 months to convince my wife why the Honda mower I wanted for $700 was better than the toro for $200. Toro throw away in 2 years where my Honda 5 years old still starts on first pull every time!

Besides all of these examples why support china don't we already owe them enough $$$?!

Lol, but my $40 pair of Levis will be up there along with your pair of lucky brand jeans.

I also bought a craftsman lawnmower from a garage sale over 6 years ago and it starts with one pull everytime and that was $100.

Fully understand you get what you pay for but sometimes, you can get more for less.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Crees are manufactured in China.

 

[bigfoot86]

Subjective as my feelings may be, having a warranty, customer service and piece of mind is better than nothing at all. Just for a few bucks more. And I have to agree with Pappy, "you get what you pay for" in life. Also why do so many people throw their money to the Chinese products?! Like our country isn't in enough turmoil. Come on people, support USA!

Again...it's difficult to make this argument considering LEDs haven't been around even 10 years yet, and much of the technology hasn't been around for more than a couple of years. We're still waiting on the research to tell us the results of which colors are best. You mention "knock off" LEDs in comparison to CREEs, but Bridgelux, Epistar, and Luxeon are all names that are known to be quality lights for keeping and growing coral. The "handful" of reviews in this thread are backed by thousands of others in hundreds of threads EXACTLY like this one. You also use the words "more comforting"...well that's subjective language reflecting your feelings...not the feelings of those. who have bought the Evergrow (or some other LED) fixture.

You also talk about how the lights might "lose their luster" after a couple of years...not sure what you're referring too because these are LEDs (light emitting diodes) their "luster" doesn't diminish over time. The bulbs work until the burn out without variation in par. Also not sure how you can say the CS for the name brand fixture is automatically better without some benchmark to compare it with...that seems like more of an assumption than a fact. There are US businesses that are selling and giving warranty on these fixtures...if anything goes wrong, they repair them in house, and a standard warranty is 3 years.

So, in short, your statement is more opinion and supposition than fact. Sorry.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 2

 

[CoralFragZ]

That's another BS statement. Don't blanket 1 crappy blue/white fixture as all chinese lights being crappy. There's dozens of brands and different led layouts.

I've built my own Cree XTE, Luxeon, AND Semiled fixture. It was a very nice light that looked great, but it was overkill. I had to run it at 50% max and could still hit 300 par at the sandbed.

+1

I'm now using the chinese lights with a ratio of leds that outputs the same exact look, using Bridgelux leds instead, hitting 380 on the sandbed at 100%, which is still high and ticks my brains off midday. 4500k for neutral white, 420-430nm violet, 660nm red, royal blue, and 475nm blue. It looks the same, grows coral the same, colors up the coral better (than a retail fixture without violets), because there is no Cree violet yet, and was less than the cost of my DIY build and covers a wider area. The only difference? You use two bridgelux leds at 2.5w, for every 1 Cree at 3-5W. A nice looking case looks a lot better than my DIY attempt as well. The build matched a Radion Pro in color, and beat it handily in output, so it costs around $900 to get that look on your own without DIY. The same good quality chinese light costs around $180. They are out there. The old ones can even be modified with new leds to fix their color and output (usually).

The Crees will actually lose intensity over time quicker getting 1500mah into them compared to two Bridgelux/Epistar at 700mah. Since the Crees were running at 5W, the fixture also gets hot to the touch. The Radion Pro gets hot to the touch too. The chinese lights barely get warm.

Would I have liked Cree instead? Sure, but not at double the cost. If they cost as much as the Bridgelux to use, it would be a no brainer to use Cree instead. The good Bridgelux/Epistar leds are not crappy by any means.

+1 Lit by Cheap Ebay LEDS

 

[iTzJu]

+1 Lit by Cheap Ebay LEDS

You sir, deserve a slow clap of amazing.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Subjective as my feelings may be, having a warranty, customer service and piece of mind is better than nothing at all. Just for a few bucks more. And I have to agree with Pappy, "you get what you pay for" in life. Also why do so many people throw their money to the Chinese products?! Like our country isn't in enough turmoil. Come on people, support USA!

Please reread the last sentence of the second paragraph in my post that you quoted. It says: "There are US businesses that are selling and giving warranty on these fixtures...if anything goes wrong, they repair them in house, and a standard warranty is 3 years." So, the idea that you can't get customer service and warranty (and therefore peace of mind) on the chinese fixtures is not a viable argument. Also, the "you get what you pay for" is a bad kill-all argument that just doesn't stand up to fact...it sounds pretty but just isn't true. As many of the posts (not to mention the awesome FTS) in this thread have shown. I agree that cheaper is often cheaper, but in the same vein more expensive is often just more expensive. I can by live rock for $12 a pound from an lfs or $3 a pound from a guy who is tearing down a tank. Is it somehow better to pay the higher price???

Also, please remember that I did not say that the name brand fixtures had nothing to offer. Often they have functions (bells and whistles) that the chinese fixtures don't have. Maybe you like those bells and whistles and that's why you'd buy it. For example, several guys on here have mentioned the argument for controllability and lightning storms, etc. These are things that lots of guys like. Also, you do have the advantage of large corporation (again we're back to a name...and a reputation that backs it up). However, these advantages aren't enough for some of us to go spending twice to 3 times as much money on the name brand fixture...and its main function--growing coral--is accomplished just as well by the chinese fixtures (please...if you still deny this after seeing testimonials and examples of growth, then you're turning a blind eye to fact). Back to my example of the live rock...if the guy tearing down his tank has pukani and you really want tonga for your tank, you might pay the LFS price for tonga because its what you're looking for (and there's nothing wrong with that), but it's difficult to hear the argument that tonga is somehow "better" than pukani just because it cost more. Maybe it worked better for what you wanted to do, but in the end live rock is live rock and both varieties fulfill the same basic function.

Also, just to briefly address the newest argument on the board that we are somehow supporting china by buying chinese fixtures, it is naive to think that your own purchases don't support china (or other countries). Playing the patriotic card doesn't make sense in a global economy (especially since not everyone on this forum is living in the USA!!). If you own any car (and I don't care if it's an American brand), there are many MANY parts that are made in other countries (again this is true even if they have an american name stamped on them). If you own any Samsung phone (or any other phone for that matter), it's mostly made overseas. ...other electronic devices...TVs etc. Also, this is not a valid argument when you look at your argument for quality especially since chinese and japanese (i.e. non-American) electronic brands are often better quality than American brands. So the idea that we are somehow "supporting china" is not a good argument and actually works against your main argument for why you say you buy the name brand fixtures.

 

[scooterc268]

+2 Lit by China leds (lights are over 2yrs old)

Plus read history
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cree_Inc.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[bigfoot86]

Agreed you don't need all the bells and whistles, which those units may costs 3 times as much, but there's units out there that don't even cost twice as much. Know many people that claim possibly a 3 year warranty and customer service, but fails to live up to it. Seen it too much.

 

[Pappy]

Lol, but my $40 pair of Levis will be up there along with your pair of lucky brand jeans.

I also bought a craftsman lawnmower from a garage sale over 6 years ago and it starts with one pull everytime and that was $100.

Fully understand you get what you pay for but sometimes, you can get more for less.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Crees are manufactured in China.

They're an international company with main office in North Carolina . Yes they have manufacturing in china and other places however they're an America based company hence the $$$ stats here.

And your examples were excellent using craftsman (name brand from sears) still working over the years! And Levi's another name brand versus a knock off like we are discussing

 

[MikeMcdh]

I bought a 4ft 4T5 w bulbs

plus blue led night lite by Odysea on eBay for just under a $100 and haven't had any problems about a year old.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

 

[iTzJu]

They're an international company with main office in North Carolina . Yes they have manufacturing in china and other places however they're an America based company hence the $$$ stats here.

And your examples were excellent using craftsman (name brand from sears) still working over the years! And Levi's another name brand versus a knock off like we are discussing

haha, well I wasn't really looking at the brand name but more of the price point.

I think people are generalizing the Chinese fixtures as knock offs, but in reality they are not. They are using Bridgelux, Epistar, and even lately Cree LEDs in their fixtures, which are all name brand LED companies. The argument here is that people dismiss these fixtures as low-end and unreliable when they can easily be as effective, if not better and as reliable as some of the higher end fixtures. I'll admit the fixtures might not have all the bells and whistles but for the fraction of the cost, who can complain?

Also, they might be an American headquartered company but to truly effect US economy, they need to bring their manufacturing back here to the US. But, this is another topic to discuss which I would like to avoid. LOL

 

[Pappy]

As far as the 2-3x more argument. I have a DIY fixture with all Cree bulbs over my 120g and it cost me $950 to have done by local reefer. Came with controller and a fuge light for that price. Not a fan of lightning, etc...IMO as long as it is programmable and dimmable I'm happy. And that 1st pic with the Chinese fixtures is def beautiful and love all the sps! In another 10 years we will revisit this conversation and see who has had to replace what if any and the change in par and spectrum if any. There just was a thread proving the loss of both with LEDs run at full power (1 watt LEDs) versus running 3 watt Crees at less than half.

The person that posted the Wikipedia link...if u read it says their headquarters is in North Carolina. Doesn't matter where they're manufactured. The America based business will reap the profits and it will effect our economy positively versus another country. And the patriotic card isn't what was being played here by me. We all know that china makes a ton of stuff we use. However the issue I see is that we owe them billions of $$$$ so why buy right from them versus an American based corporation that will profit from our contribution. There is nothing wrong with the company outsourcing the labor (in this circumstance!) but at least they receive the $$$ here in US.

 

[Pappy]

So I just wanted to re-visit original question and re state differently. Are Chinese fixtures bad/unreliable (or whatever it said lol).

My new response...most yes, however, if there are 3 watt Cree bulbs, full spectrum, and you know what you are looking for they will be great and save you a couple dollars. But generally speaking ALL the ones I've seen in person have been functional at best.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

So I just wanted to re-visit original question and re state differently. Are Chinese fixtures bad/unreliable (or whatever it said lol).

My new response...most yes, however, if there are 3 watt Cree bulbs, full spectrum, and you know what you are looking for they will be great and save you a couple dollars. But generally speaking ALL the ones I've seen in person have been functional at best.

I can absolutely appreciate the restatement. I agree with you that anyone buying ANY fixture (regardless of what country it's made in) should know WHAT they are buying. You need to examine the spectrums of any fixture you buy, look at the lights being used (CREEs were mentioned here, but I think you could also include Bridgelux, Luxeon, and possibly Epistar), be sure it comes with an accessible warranty and accessible customer service, also check reviews for that specific fixture and if possible know someone who is using it who can show good results. Anything less than the above mentioned steps should be considered an experiment.

Also, Pappy made a good point when he compared 1 watt LEDs to 3 watt LEDs. Any LED that is going to be used for coral should be rated for 3 watts. Anything less won't cut it. Thankfully, most manufacturers have learned this lesson (someone, please contact MarineLand so that they will stop making their 1 watt "reef capable" lights!!) and most of them now use only 3 watt LEDs.

 

[bhazard451]

The two best led options, in a performance/price ratio in LED lighting, are by far a DIY Cree/Luxeon LED setup, and a good chinese light IMO. Not everyone has the ability to DIY though. For Reefledlights, I personally would choose a mix of leds for DIY over the complete fixture. I've bought parts from them before, and had no issues.

My latest light. Evergrow/Reefbreeders with 4500k Neutral white, 495nm custom cyan, 420 and 430nm violets, 450nm royal blues, 480nm blue, 660nm red. 120 degree optics on the cyan and reds. 90 on the rest. Tdb's reef is the best example of a TOTM reef with chinese leds I've seen. Most of his are Evergrow like mine, and Apollo reef led gen 2.

Cell phone pics (Nexus 4)

Tricolor & Tenuis under Nexus 4 (the blue in the fixture washes out pics from the Nexus)



under Iphone 5 (extreme violet hue from iphone as seen on the rocks. same fixture intensity). This more closely shows how deep of a purple it looks in person.



Growth shot (nexus) Acro Mille

6 months ago before tank transfer



today



Radion pro $950 (w hanging kit) / Evergrow Reefbreeders $450 w hangking kit



Radion isnt as green in person, chinese isnt as purple



So, by looking at the premium, american assembled Radion Pro, and the chinese light, where do you see a reason to spend $2,850 for 3 Cree XT-E units to cover my tank, over $900 for two chinese units? If you group buy with a local club, they're even less than that too. PAR is equal between both fixtures when I measured with my Apogee. ~380 at 100% at the sandbed 30" down from fixture dead center. I didn't see a reason, so I sold the Radion.

Bill is right too. "Lightning" scares the fish, and myself. If I saw a flash like that coming from my DIY fixture, I would be very worried.

 

[bhazard451]

I could really use a DSLR. The pics vary wildly for the same tank untouched.

FTS Iphone 5



FTS Nexus

 

[bhazard451]

Red Acans, Red Yuma, Red Brain... all remain red. This is one of the main knocks against LEDs, that they cannot keep red color.