Are GFCI's Necessary. A Thought for not having them for your tank
- Thread starter Dragon52
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The discussion of the shortfalls of poor GFCI devices is hard to argue with; they're a nuisance. The conclusion to draw however is to use good quality GFCIs, not to omit essential safety equipment. We reefers get used to the unnatural act of throwing stuff that's plugged into the wall into a tank of salt water; feels normal to us - it isn't. You take a turn to the absurd when you lump reef-tanks in with fridges and freezers. A GFCI is not an "aquarium life-support" device; it's a life-saving device for *you* and your family. You don't put your hands in a tank of refrigerator, or of freezer; your exposure there is economic (and perhaps a disgusting clean-up). Electricity and salt water can kill you.
Just for fun, and for the "ground probe" crowd. If you had a ground probe in your tank, presumably for electrical "safety", that extra path to ground would have taken current from the surge and probably have burned up all your reefing gear before the GFCI could trip. Electricity can kill you.
I won't argue with your opinion or your interpretation of your experience, but I doubt your loss was due to the GFCI, more likely to some failing device plugged into it; the GFCI likely saved you from harm. As an electrical engineer, I do doubt however that you have enough knowledge of electricity or of electronics to perform a proper diagnosis of what was actually at fault, never mind qualified to make implicit recommendations to other people. I do dispute your conclusion that GFCIs are inappropriate for reef tank applications; you are simply wrong.
I recognize that I've been a little shrill on this thread. I followed Randy Holmes-Farley here from ReefCentral back in the cave-man days because he's a qualified chemist and reefer whose advice I value. I can't claim his stature in this community, but degrees in EE give me standing to comment on the folklore that seems to surround reef tanks and electricity. My point is that I readily defer to an expert outside my domain when one is available. I feel a duty to hold up my corner and try to keep people safe. Electricity can kill you.
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The post you are commenting on was written as I was in disagreement with another member. I did realize I was wrong on how I worded what I was thinking.
As for your reply, I know enough about electronics to get by, I am a mechanical engineer so I too went to school. However, just because you are an engineer don't think for one second that you are a genius in the hobby. I lost thousands of dollars on a system that had GFCI on them and I will not use them again on that system. If you are old school then you should remember the days before them. This has been a great thread but I think the points have been made and everyone should move along and not comment anymore since it seems to be like beating a dead horse.
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There's nothing personal here; I don't mean to be after you; I do worry about what non-specialists read, and take to heart. So much of reef keeping is folklore, folks get inured to "opinions as fact". I never claimed to be a genius reefer, just covering my corner (where I am a genuine expert), and I do read a lot of dangerous nonsense here. The point I've been chasing, bluntly perhaps, is that electrical safety is not a matter of opinion, and that our hobby exposes us to lots of risks that we tend to ignore as the technology improves. We can't beat this "dead horse" too often. I'm done if you are (for now, at least
).
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Foothill Corals
Active Member
I just had a dedicated circuit installed with two separate GFCI outlets wired so one will not trip the other. I plan on running my return pump on one and the circulation pumps on the other. If either trips the tank will still easily run for at least a day without problems.
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
Edit: I owe you an apology. My knowledge appears to be dated. This entire getting old thing is rough. It seems to be common now for the line to be on top or bottom depending on the manufacturer. As long as the supply to the outlet is connected to the line side this will work fine.
Original reply below.
Have you actually checked to see if this works? Just so you are aware, it shouldn't.
The proper way to do this is to connect the line side wires to the first receptacles and then feed the next receptacle from the line side connections instead of the load side connections. Basically, everything should connect at the top.
To get down stream receptacles to trip, you connect the down stream ones to the bottom of the first GFCI in line.
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OP
OP
Dragon52
2500 Club Member
I'm stuck as to what I want to do for my setup, swap the outlet that I use for a GFIC or have an electrician come by & put in a separate outlet only for the tank. My outlets are only 6" above the floor level so even though I'm not really worried about a leak if something happened to the tank(Break or blowout) that's a different situation.
Foothill Corals
Active Member
"The proper way to do this is to connect the line side wires to the first receptacles and then feed the next receptacle from the line side connections instead of the load side connections. Basically, everything should connect at the top. "
Maybe I should not have posted that pic he may have done it some other way. I showed that to the electrician as an example of what I wanted and an explanation of why. He wired it so they are independent and showed me with the tester it works.
If the pic is incorrect maybe a mod should delete it
Maybe I should not have posted that pic he may have done it some other way. I showed that to the electrician as an example of what I wanted and an explanation of why. He wired it so they are independent and showed me with the tester it works.
If the pic is incorrect maybe a mod should delete it
Brew12
Electrical Gru
It's a good recommendation for wiring them in series so they trip independently. I highly recommend independent GFCI's so you don't lose everything on a single trip.
I'll see if I can get the picture deleted. If someone were to actually wire it that way it would not secure power to the outlets when the GFCI tripped. If he showed you that it lost power when it tripped, he didn't wire it this way so you should be fine..
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Thank you much!
n2585722
2500 Club Member
You want to connect the outlets in parallel. Series will not work for outlets.
n2585722
2500 Club Member
Series or Parallel. It's common to describe household wall receptacles that are wired together using the device terminals as wired in series. But, in fact, all household receptacles are always wired in parallel, and never in series. In a series circuit, current must pass through a load at each device.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Actually, most receptacles are wired in series. The outlets themselves are taps on on the series circuit. If you look at a receptacle installed in your house you should find the line side wiring at the top and load side wiring at the bottom.
n2585722
2500 Club Member
If the outlets were wired in series they would not work unless there were something plugged into each outlet then they would only get a fraction of the voltage. Outlets are wired as a parallel circuit. If all the hot blades are connected to the same supply, all the netural blades are connected to the same supply and all the ground blades are connected to the same ground then that is a parallel circuit. It dosen't matter if they are strung together form wire to wire are all run separately they are still a parallel circuit.
A series ciruit would be one hot blade hooked to supply. that netural blade hooked to the hot blade of the next outlet. The netural blade of the next outlet to the hot blade of the third repeating this till the end and that outlet would be hooked to supply nutral.
A series ciruit would be one hot blade hooked to supply. that netural blade hooked to the hot blade of the next outlet. The netural blade of the next outlet to the hot blade of the third repeating this till the end and that outlet would be hooked to supply nutral.
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I ran 3 dedicated circuits for my new tank, 4x outlet sets per, with GFCI protecting each. One nifty thing I found is GFCI outlets with 'Audible Alarm'. Any time the gfci trips it makes a super loud beeping noise to let me know to reset it. Obviously, that wouldn't help if I was out of town, but it sure can keep down accidental trips while I am home. I plan to have one circuit that has my main return, one handling flow pumps and heater and the third handling lighting.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I'll reach out privately since this only indirectly applies to GFCI's.
n2585722
2500 Club Member
Brew12 and I are on the same page. It is a difference between trade termonology for our differences. To an electrician when you hook the power to the supply side of one duplex outlet and then run from the load side of that outlet to the next outlet and so on this is referred to as wired in series in the electrical trade since the current has to flow through a buss bar in the duplex outlet. Doing this the outlets are still in parallel to the power source, but if an outlet goes bad or is removed the down stream outlets will cease to work. As this applies to GFCI outlets the load side of the outlet is protected by the internal breaker in the outlet. So you cannot use the load terminals of a GFCI outlet to feed the supply of another GFCI outlet. If the first one trips it would remove power from both Outlets. It is possible for both to trip also under the right circumstances. Brew12 correct me if I got this wrong or the terminology is wrong since I am not a electrician. I am a electronics technician by trade. There is a bit of difference. For one I am not familiar with all the electrical codes that electricians use or all their termonology. Currently I repair and maintain ion implanters used in the semiconductor industry.
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