Are ppl not doing QT helping or not helping the fish keeping hobby?

[Daenion]

An old fashioned pitchfork thread. Following along for quality content.

 

[peterhos]

Hi All. I have never in 20 + years quarantined a fish. My LFS is immaculately clean as far as the eye can see, and I have never lost a fish with disease, only old age. Whenever I visit a shop with a dead or struggling fish on show, I never go back.

 

[QuickrdenU]

A healthy immune system is truly a miracle. It cannot be created through antibiotics, medications, and isolation. Attempting to do so is how one becomes a patient for life and endless suffering. Human nature is to go down the path of believing we are smarter than our creator by putting all our faith in the false idol of “SCIENCE” but when has that EVER worked out for us? Even very recently we can witness the disasters that we create by being “so smart.” We can never know everything about life, biology, and physiology and some may say, myself included, that it is a huge time waste and distraction to attempt to do so. Other factors may very well be involved that we will never understand.

Medical treatment other forms of intervention(trauma surgery especially) definitely have their place. If an animal is sick, we should do our best to care for it. But treating an animal before it is sick and not placing it in an ideal environment usually does more harm than good I guess is my point. To the fish and to us. For example, returning all these meds back to OUR water supply…

That is my opinion. Go get dirty and flame on!

 

[Reefer911]

A healthy immune system is truly a miracle. It cannot be created through antibiotics, medications, and isolation. Attempting to do so is how one becomes a patient for life and endless suffering. Human nature is to go down the path of believing we are smarter than our creator by putting all our faith in the false idol of “SCIENCE” but when has that EVER worked out for us? Even very recently we can witness the disasters that we create by being “so smart.” We can never know everything about life, biology, and physiology and some may say, myself included, that it is a huge time waste and distraction to attempt to do so. Other factors may very well be involved that we will never understand.

Medical treatment other forms of intervention(trauma surgery especially) definitely have their place. If an animal is sick, we should do our best to care for it. But treating an animal before it is sick and not placing it in an ideal environment usually does more harm than good I guess is my point. To the fish and to us. For example, returning all these meds back to OUR water supply…

That is my opinion. Go get dirty and flame on!

ALL great points and I agree with you.

 

[QuickrdenU]

Every fish we receive, IMO we essentially have to nurse back to good physical and mental health. We tend to think they should be perfect out of the bag like a product from Amazon or something. Whether they’re taken from the ocean or raised in captivity, their health is sure to be a fraction of what it was in the wild. Being kept by wholesalers and retailers in small, sterile, overpacked copper dosed tanks for who knows how long. Not to mention shipping multiple times. So I personally attempt to create the best environment for each fish with as much biological diversity, food, and hiding spots as possible. We’re selfish and nobody is perfect but I feel like that is much more important than whether we QT or not in the overall longterm health of the animal.

A large established tank with plenty of live rock and diversity where we can observe the animal for months before introducing to the main tank would probably be the perfect situation but none of us are setup for that.

I used to have parrots as pets. I will no longer do so because I feel like they are way too intelligent to thrive in whatever environment we can provide for them, outside of their natural habitat.

 

[2020 Worst Year]

I nearly didn't start this hobby cause all i was reading about was QT QT QT QT i'm stupid af idk what to do decided against QT never lost a fish don't plan on QTing any time soon either

The fishstores in the UK seem ALOT better than the US for disease problems though

 

[BeanAnimal]

A healthy immune system is truly a miracle. It cannot be created through antibiotics, medications, and isolation. Attempting to do so is how one becomes a patient for life and endless suffering. Human nature is to go down the path of believing we are smarter than our creator by putting all our faith in the false idol of “SCIENCE” but when has that EVER worked out for us? Even very recently we can witness the disasters that we create by being “so smart.” We can never know everything about life, biology, and physiology and some may say, myself included, that it is a huge time waste and distraction to attempt to do so. Other factors may very well be involved that we will never understand.

Medical treatment other forms of intervention(trauma surgery especially) definitely have their place. If an animal is sick, we should do our best to care for it. But treating an animal before it is sick and not placing it in an ideal environment usually does more harm than good I guess is my point. To the fish and to us. For example, returning all these meds back to OUR water supply…

That is my opinion. Go get dirty and flame on!

The danger in just about anything is absolutes. Taking away all of preventative anything and letting Darwin sort it out is an absolute just as dangerous as pumping every cell on the planet full of antibiotics.

Exiting conversation…

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

My question is that alot of issues regarding fish comes from stress does quarantine for 3+ weeks and then moving again not add to the stress? How often have yall QT a fish and it does well and then degrades after another move to the DT? Is this even a thing or am I just paranoid?

It probably would add somewhat to the stress, yes, but generally speaking if a fish makes it through QT it’ll be fine being transferred to the DT (the only exceptions I can recall hearing about involved instances of established fish aggression against the new fish).

That said, there are basically three camps that I’ve seen with QT:

-Full, medicated QT (the timeframe for this can vary, but Jay Hemdal’s 2023 protocols suggests 64 days); this is likely the most stressful option, but the thought for this is basically that disease can’t wipe out your tank if it isn’t in your tank. Some people believe this weakens a fish’s immune system and may lead to them dying relatively young.

-Observational QT (I generally see this from reefers in places where it’s harder to get fish meds); this option is probably still stressful for the fish, but it seems to be more about avoiding particularly deadly diseases (such as velvet) or knowing in advance what you’re allowing into the tank. This method carries a lot of the same risks as no-QT (see below), but it can give a heads-up about issues new fish may have/introduce.

-No QT; this avoids the stress of being moved between tanks, but I feel like Paul B’s comment above is a pretty accurate description here. The thought here is that a healthy fish with a healthy immune system won’t die except from old age. Basically, this method can work if you’re able to provide good water, good food, and a good environment for the fish. Most newcomers to the hobby are probably not capable of that when they start, and when the fish isn’t healthy/is too stressed (such as because of inadequate water, food, or environment), them any diseases they’re carrying flare up and can take them out (hence why the disease forum here is full of no-QT tanks getting wiped out by diseases). This method does carry the risks that 1) a deadly disease like velvet may come in and wipe some or all of the fish in the tank out unexpectedly and 2) if a stressful event (such as a bacterial bloom, for example) happens unexpectedly, you may face a disease outbreak in the tank at the same time. Jay Hemdal has some posts about other potential weaknesses of this method here on R2R too, but these are the most important in my mind for most people to be aware of.

So, for most people a properly done, full, medicated QT is probably the safer route to go with when just starting out - honestly, this is why I’m personally a fan of pre-QT vendors, as they have a pretty good track record of delivering disease-free fish (meaning that sub-optimal care like the average newcomer is likely to unintentionally give the fish is less likely to kill it), and it’s hassle-free for the buyer.

Again, all of these methods when done properly can work, and they all have some pros and cons, but those are my two cents on the matter.


With regards to the OP’s question, I’d say yes and no. They definitely help grow the hobby (though I imagine a lot of them drop out of the hobby after a disease wipes out their tank), but the mortality rates of the fish in a lot of these tanks probably looks bad for the hobby from an environmental/conservation standpoint, so (keeping politics out of this as much as possible) it may also increase chances of regulations that are/could be detrimental to the hobby.

 

[sc50964]

It probably would add somewhat to the stress, yes, but generally speaking if a fish makes it through QT it’ll be fine being transferred to the DT (the only exceptions I can recall hearing about involved instances of established fish aggression against the new fish).

That said, there are basically three camps that I’ve seen with QT:

-Full, medicated QT (the timeframe for this can vary, but Jay Hemdal’s 2023 protocols suggests 64 days); this is likely the most stressful option, but the thought for this is basically that disease can’t wipe out your tank if it isn’t in your tank. Some people believe this weakens a fish’s immune system and may lead to them dying relatively young.

-Observational QT (I generally see this from reefers in places where it’s harder to get fish meds); this option is probably still stressful for the fish, but it seems to be more about avoiding particularly deadly diseases (such as velvet) or knowing in advance what you’re allowing into the tank. This method carries a lot of the same risks as no-QT (see below), but it can give a heads-up about issues new fish may have/introduce.

-No QT; this avoids the stress of being moved between tanks, but I feel like Paul B’s comment above is a pretty accurate description here. The thought here is that a healthy fish with a healthy immune system won’t die except from old age. Basically, this method can work if you’re able to provide good water, good food, and a good environment for the fish. Most newcomers to the hobby are probably not capable of that when they start, and when the fish isn’t healthy/is too stressed (such as because of inadequate water, food, or environment), them any diseases they’re carrying flare up and can take them out (hence why the disease forum here is full of no-QT tanks getting wiped out by diseases). This method does carry the risks that 1) a deadly disease like velvet may come in and wipe some or all of the fish in the tank out unexpectedly and 2) if a stressful event (such as a bacterial bloom, for example) happens unexpectedly, you may face a disease outbreak in the tank at the same time. Jay Hemdal has some posts about other potential weaknesses of this method here on R2R too, but these are the most important in my mind for most people to be aware of.

So, for most people a properly done, full, medicated QT is probably the safer route to go with when just starting out - honestly, this is why I’m personally a fan of pre-QT vendors, as they have a pretty good track record of delivering disease-free fish (meaning that sub-optimal care like the average newcomer is likely to unintentionally give the fish is less likely to kill it), and it’s hassle-free for the buyer.

Again, all of these methods when done properly can work, and they all have some pros and cons, but those are my two cents on the matter.


With regards to the OP’s question, I’d say yes and no. They definitely help grow the hobby (though I imagine a lot of them drop out of the hobby after a disease wipes out their tank), but the mortality rates of the fish in a lot of these tanks probably looks bad for the hobby from an environmental/conservation standpoint, so (keeping politics out of this as much as possible) it may also increase chances of regulations that are/could be detrimental to the hobby.

You raised some good points, which make me wonder if the added scrutiny from the regulators has offset the popularity gained by having a larger audience. I believe the added regulation is still not enough to slow down the expansion of this hobby. I’m not suggesting more regulation.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

which make me wonder if the added scrutiny from the regulators has offset the popularity gained by having a larger audience.

At this point, probably not - I’m more just concerned that it may in the future.

I believe the added regulation is still not enough to slow down the expansion of this hobby. I’m not suggesting more regulation.

Again, at this point I agree.

 

[sc50964]

At this point, probably not - I’m more just concerned that it may in the future.

Again, at this point I agree.

And in the world of capitalism, ppl will always find a way to profit as long as there is demand.

 

[tzabor10]

New to the hobby and I've been bitten hard. Currently have a 55 Gallon up and running for 6 months. Weekly water changes and testing 3 times a week. Fish and coral are doing very well. I've purchased a used 140 gallon that I'm cleaning up and have built a stand for. Purchasing the equipment 1 Piece at a time. I've thought about adding a QT for my 55g and 140g DT. My question is that alot of issues regarding fish comes from stress does quarantine for 3+ weeks and then moving again not add to the stress? How often have yall QT a fish and it does well and then degrades after another move to the DT? Is this even a thing or am I just paranoid?

I like to see fat fish before the transfer. Get them used to you, your food water and schedule. It’s tough to target feed a scared and bullied fish.

 

[Spare time]

I honestly am not even going to bother debating this anymore. Its like arguing with someone saying that a healthy immune system is all you need to not be bothered by Marburg hemorrhaging virus. It isn't a common cold that these fish are getting. They are deadly diseases, primarily protozoan parasites, that in an artificial box environment can overwhelm a fish through massive and repeated attacks on the body that are unlike anything the fish would deal with in the wild

 

[Spare time]

It probably would add somewhat to the stress, yes, but generally speaking if a fish makes it through QT it’ll be fine being transferred to the DT (the only exceptions I can recall hearing about involved instances of established fish aggression against the new fish).

That said, there are basically three camps that I’ve seen with QT:

-Full, medicated QT (the timeframe for this can vary, but Jay Hemdal’s 2023 protocols suggests 64 days); this is likely the most stressful option, but the thought for this is basically that disease can’t wipe out your tank if it isn’t in your tank. Some people believe this weakens a fish’s immune system and may lead to them dying relatively young.

-Observational QT (I generally see this from reefers in places where it’s harder to get fish meds); this option is probably still stressful for the fish, but it seems to be more about avoiding particularly deadly diseases (such as velvet) or knowing in advance what you’re allowing into the tank. This method carries a lot of the same risks as no-QT (see below), but it can give a heads-up about issues new fish may have/introduce.

-No QT; this avoids the stress of being moved between tanks, but I feel like Paul B’s comment above is a pretty accurate description here. The thought here is that a healthy fish with a healthy immune system won’t die except from old age. Basically, this method can work if you’re able to provide good water, good food, and a good environment for the fish. Most newcomers to the hobby are probably not capable of that when they start, and when the fish isn’t healthy/is too stressed (such as because of inadequate water, food, or environment), them any diseases they’re carrying flare up and can take them out (hence why the disease forum here is full of no-QT tanks getting wiped out by diseases). This method does carry the risks that 1) a deadly disease like velvet may come in and wipe some or all of the fish in the tank out unexpectedly and 2) if a stressful event (such as a bacterial bloom, for example) happens unexpectedly, you may face a disease outbreak in the tank at the same time. Jay Hemdal has some posts about other potential weaknesses of this method here on R2R too, but these are the most important in my mind for most people to be aware of.

So, for most people a properly done, full, medicated QT is probably the safer route to go with when just starting out - honestly, this is why I’m personally a fan of pre-QT vendors, as they have a pretty good track record of delivering disease-free fish (meaning that sub-optimal care like the average newcomer is likely to unintentionally give the fish is less likely to kill it), and it’s hassle-free for the buyer.

Again, all of these methods when done properly can work, and they all have some pros and cons, but those are my two cents on the matter.


With regards to the OP’s question, I’d say yes and no. They definitely help grow the hobby (though I imagine a lot of them drop out of the hobby after a disease wipes out their tank), but the mortality rates of the fish in a lot of these tanks probably looks bad for the hobby from an environmental/conservation standpoint, so (keeping politics out of this as much as possible) it may also increase chances of regulations that are/could be detrimental to the hobby.

Who says QT's are stressful? That is just something I believe was made up by people who had fish die from improper QT protocols.

 

[Spare time]

A healthy immune system is truly a miracle. It cannot be created through antibiotics, medications, and isolation. Attempting to do so is how one becomes a patient for life and endless suffering. Human nature is to go down the path of believing we are smarter than our creator by putting all our faith in the false idol of “SCIENCE” but when has that EVER worked out for us? Even very recently we can witness the disasters that we create by being “so smart.” We can never know everything about life, biology, and physiology and some may say, myself included, that it is a huge time waste and distraction to attempt to do so. Other factors may very well be involved that we will never understand.

Medical treatment other forms of intervention(trauma surgery especially) definitely have their place. If an animal is sick, we should do our best to care for it. But treating an animal before it is sick and not placing it in an ideal environment usually does more harm than good I guess is my point. To the fish and to us. For example, returning all these meds back to OUR water supply…

That is my opinion. Go get dirty and flame on!

No one is arguing for prophylactics antibiotics.

Also please don't bring religion into this forum. Just don't. You can debate science on here, but this is not the place for debating something undebatable.

As for when has science ever worked for us? Idk maybe look at the entirety of human progress? Tell that to everyone who has died before the scientific method came about and modern medicine was invented afterwards that could have been saved. Your comment angers me as I have worked with people who have suffered and know many who died because they don't have access to modern medicine and scientific technologies, including preventative treatment (i.e. vaccines). The savior being the natural immune system is a flawed system and a wrangled beast that the body has to work with but can easily fail and such failures are one of the main reasons why living things die.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Who says QT's are stressful? That is just something I believe was made up by people who had fish die from improper QT protocols.

Do you have evidence that they are not?

 

[BeanAnimal]

No one is arguing for prophylactics antibiotics.

Of course they are, it is common practice (fish and people).

 

[Spare time]

Of course they are, it is common practice (fish and people).

No its not. Where are you getting that its common practice? In people its common to over prescribe them in unnecessary cases, but its not someone that people are doing as a preventative for bacterial infections (at least in the Western world)

 

[Spare time]

Do you have evidence that they are not?

That isn't on me to prove. Its on the person making the claim that something exists (i.e. that its stressfull)

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

I QT For observation. I don’t medicate till I see an actual need.
but I always qt everything


as far as the effect of new people, I think most new people are more likely to stress their tanks with too many fish , in smaller tanks ,and situations that facilitate spreading of any infections is more likely in general. Plus I think more experienced fish buyers eliminate many problem fish by not purchasing them in the first place