Are really stringy white poops a sign of internal parasites or is it a myth?

[Lasse]

Out of the several hundred fish I have handled if it had white stringy poop, was eating when symptoms arose and then stopped. They didn't start back up again.

Something is wrong here because I have not seen 100 of SW fish with white stringy poops - I have seen thousands of these occasions during the last 15 years. Newly imported fish from at least 4 countries – including the USA. Never ever threat – never lost a fish that’s eat with these tiny stringy poops. With the freshwater example – I was referred to known outbreak of diplomonad infections and the symptoms there. Honestly – if you have a newcomer that eat but with a tiny white stringy poop under heavy prophylactic treatment and it stops to eat – you never ever have had another possible explanation than internal parasites? Diplomonad infections are stress related – the flagellate is always there – I do not doubt that an infection can arise during the stressful condition that a sterile QT with prophylactic treatment show up. Based on my experiences – a fish that nots eat and have a tiny white stringy poop and that´s not answer to a treatment with a metro bath and die – died of other reasons than a diplomonad infection.

I also used to run into bacterial infections alot during the copper treatment usually in the last two weeks. That is why we adapted the method we use.

And your answer is more drugs because you get a disease because your copper treatment just in case of…….. For me – this is the upside down world – and you are not even in Australia

If you take the time to do a write up

I think that you now touch the real problem. In industry production – manuals, protocols are common. Everyone should be able with help of these manage the process. But running an aquarium (or all other biological systems) is not a single line of cause and effect. It is like running a chaotic system with so many inputs and outputs that the system will change more than once during a short time span. Organisms will answer on your way of handling them – and sometimes in ways that you do not have any idea of. During my active time as fish farmer, researcher, aquarist at public aquariums and other jobs with living creatures and systems - I have many times been asked to give a manual like if this happens – do that. I have always denied because IME it is impossible to do that because the action you should take is highly depended overall, holistic situation. Me and other have lined up many main roads without prophylactic treatment – most of them based on as low stress as possible. Both me and @Lowell Lemon have outlined system for observation QT in other threads. In my posts here at R2R I always try to avoid advises or 100 % sure answers - instead trying to give tools that helps people understand the situation and be able to handle their own situation. Sometimes it works - sometimes not. But I´m sure that the discussion in this thread have get a huge input and understanding of the problem for many people. For me - it has strengthened my opinion that this claim is basically a myth with help of many
scientific articles that have been shown in this thread together with experiences from a lot of people that not have treat the symptom.

But the topic here and now is if a stringy white poop is normally a sign of a disease caused by internal parasites. I will still say that it is a myth.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HotRocks]

Something is wrong here

I'm glad you are finally starting to understand there is definitely something wrong here .

And your answer is more drugs because you get a disease because your copper treatment just in case of……..

Wrong, my answer is less time in copper. Because I want to minimize the exposure time to medications and prevent bacterial infections so that antibiotics aren't needed due to immune suppression caused by copper. I have said this many times. I don't like that it's necessary to medicate fish.

I have many times been asked to give a manual like if this happens – do that. I have always denied because IME it is impossible to do that because the action you should take is highly depended overall, holistic situation. Me and other have lined up many main roads without prophylactic treatment – most of them based on as low stress as possible. Both me and @Lowell Lemon have outlined system for observation QT in other threads. In my posts here at R2R I always try to avoid advises or 100 % sure answers

I agree with you that nothing is 100%. I have tons of respect for @Lowell Lemon, he's great. All I am asking for is a write-up with pointers, system type, equipment run, etc. It's funny to me that no one is willing to do so. People like humblefish have dedicated hours and hours of time putting together write ups to help people deal with disease once introduced to Aquariums as well as how to prevent it using prophylactic treatments. Paul b is the only one I know that has ever described his system in detail. He certainly does more that set up a fish tank and keep it low stress. He runs equipment at times that others like me don't. He is very selective about where he gets fish from and the type of fish he adds. He uses natural seawater (which is an option many people don't have). He feeds tons of live foods. In my opinion these are all very important things that someone wishing to run a system like his need to know.

Several of "us" have tried the low stress, no treatment only to have entire tank wipeouts. I will let @4FordFamily elaborate. He tried it for 10 years and it just didn't work out.

But the topic here and now is if a stringy white poop is normally a sign of a disease caused by internal parasites. I will still say that it is a myth.

Respectfully I agree to disagree, and that is ok.

 

[HotRocks]

Also, I received this email from our friend @Humblefish. He asked me to post this on his behalf, since he is away from R2R currently. He has been reading this thread:

Regarding the subject of this thread:

Every single stringy white poop I’ve ever examined under a microscope had (worm) eggs or parasites attached to it. Every necropsy I’ve performed where a fish had stringy white poo, flagellates were found in the gastrointestinal tract. Oftentimes they had already migrated to other areas inside the fish such as the spinal canal or sensory pores. (The former is probably at least a contributing factor to fatal spinal injuries.) Intestinal worms appear to be more benign, and why some fish seem to live with stringy white feces for an extended period of time (or sometimes indefinitely.) So while it is possible for intestinal irritation (or similar) to cause stringy white poo; IME an intestinal malady is usually the root cause.

All medications are harmful/have side effects. No doubt about that. However, there is no evidence that food soaking praziquantel, metronidazole, fenbendazole, etc. is any more or less dangerous than any other medication we use. I’ve tried repeatedly just dosing metronidazole in the water (every 48 hours for weeks) to eliminate internal flagellates, and that flat out isn’t potent enough. (I use pharmaceutical grade metro.) There is some evidence, however, that Chloroquine in water can eliminate internal flagellates (maybe the fish metabolizes more of it?) However, that doesn’t help anthias, flasher wrasses and other CP intolerant species. Which, ironically, seem most prone to internal flagellates.

So, all I’m saying is I don’t feel it’s “dangerous” to food soak prazi, metro, General Cure, etc. if you already have a fish in QT and see stringy white poop. I haven’t noticed any internal organ damage to fish I necropsied that were fed any of those medications. Wait & see if you like, it’s always your call, but IMO once flagellates migrate away from the intestinal tract you’ve lost your chance to eradicate them most likely. So timing can be of the essence.

Looking at the big picture:

There seems to be a trend developing where some just want to be naysayers or act contrary. It is easy to criticize; not so easy to offer alternative solutions to a problem (fish health). Both @HotRocks and myself have taken the time to write clear, detailed QT protocols to follow. Yes, we do advocate chemoprophylaxis… Not because we think it is a good option, but rather we feel it is a necessary evil based upon our experiences with the US supply chain. I understand some of you are against chemoprophylaxis. I would encourage you then to write DETAILED, THOROUGH guidelines for keeping fish healthy and also how to deal with newly acquired fish. To point readers to as an alternative to what we are advocating. Theories and long-winded explanations are great, but what hobbyists need is a step-by-step guide outlining your methods. So, step up to the plate, attach your name to a method for keeping fish healthy, and let’s see if its repeatable. Hopefully we all can learn from one another.

Look, I know there’s a lot of bickering going on, but I think at the end of the day we all want healthy fish. So instead of constantly trying to cut one another off at the knees, work together for the common good. Be good to one another, and remember we are all on “TEAM FISH” together.

Humblefish

 

[4FordFamily]

Also, I received this email from our friend @Humblefish. He asked me to post this on his behalf, since he is away from R2R currently. He has been reading this thread:

Regarding the subject of this thread:

Every single stringy white poop I’ve ever examined under a microscope had (worm) eggs or parasites attached to it. Every necropsy I’ve performed where a fish had stringy white poo, flagellates were found in the gastrointestinal tract. Oftentimes they had already migrated to other areas inside the fish such as the spinal canal or sensory pores. (The former is probably at least a contributing factor to fatal spinal injuries.) Intestinal worms appear to be more benign, and why some fish seem to live with stringy white feces for an extended period of time (or sometimes indefinitely.) So while it is possible for intestinal irritation (or similar) to cause stringy white poo; IME an intestinal malady is usually the root cause.

All medications are harmful/have side effects. No doubt about that. However, there is no evidence that food soaking praziquantel, metronidazole, fenbendazole, etc. is any more or less dangerous than any other medication we use. I’ve tried repeatedly just dosing metronidazole in the water (every 48 hours for weeks) to eliminate internal flagellates, and that flat out isn’t potent enough. (I use pharmaceutical grade metro.) There is some evidence, however, that Chloroquine in water can eliminate internal flagellates (maybe the fish metabolizes more of it?) However, that doesn’t help anthias, flasher wrasses and other CP intolerant species. Which, ironically, seem most prone to internal flagellates.

So, all I’m saying is I don’t feel it’s “dangerous” to food soak prazi, metro, General Cure, etc. if you already have a fish in QT and see stringy white poop. I haven’t noticed any internal organ damage to fish I necropsied that were fed any of those medications. Wait & see if you like, it’s always your call, but IMO once flagellates migrate away from the intestinal tract you’ve lost your chance to eradicate them most likely. So timing can be of the essence.

Looking at the big picture:

There seems to be a trend developing where some just want to be naysayers or act contrary. It is easy to criticize; not so easy to offer alternative solutions to a problem (fish health). Both @HotRocks and myself have taken the time to write clear, detailed QT protocols to follow. Yes, we do advocate chemoprophylaxis… Not because we think it is a good option, but rather we feel it is a necessary evil based upon our experiences with the US supply chain. I understand some of you are against chemoprophylaxis. I would encourage you then to write DETAILED, THOROUGH guidelines for keeping fish healthy and also how to deal with newly acquired fish. To point readers to as an alternative to what we are advocating. Theories and long-winded explanations are great, but what hobbyists need is a step-by-step guide outlining your methods. So, step up to the plate, attach your name to a method for keeping fish healthy, and let’s see if its repeatable. Hopefully we all can learn from one another.

Look, I know there’s a lot of bickering going on, but I think at the end of the day we all want healthy fish. So instead of constantly trying to cut one another off at the knees, work together for the common good. Be good to one another, and remember we are all on “TEAM FISH” together.

Humblefish

Well-put

 

[Gareth elliott]

There are concerns outside of the hobby. I will take lasses comments on resistance a step further. We are the outliers, as hobbyists we can push limits that stores And aquaculture facilities can not because of their shear size. What we do could impact more than the fish in our tanks.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03673-1

Study above found Nile River tilapia that had streptococcus resistant to 8 different classes of antibiotics. Not going to jump on the prophylactic or observe side.

But when do decide to treat follow dosing instructions potency and timelines on your fish abx

 

[WVNed]

We are down to burn the heretics. Another epic thread about a problem I have never had. I guess put me down as just being contrary. Do we get to choose?
Had I known these reef tanks were such havens of disease, pests, parasites and death I would probably never have started doing this.

 

[Lasse]

It is impossible to answer any statements that can´t be discussed because the one that stated it is not present in the discussion. But some reflections.

My humble question is if eggs and flagelates have been detected in all tiny stringy poop investegated - how many have been investegated and how many normal poops that have been investegated and have they contain these things? I would love to have that question answered
.
This flagellates always exist in the digestive tract you will always find them. In the moment the fish die - they will (together with bacteria) take over and in a short time spread in the body. Proffesionals that try to investegate fish with diseases always need living animals that they kill directly before the investigation. They refuse to investegate already self dead fish - they can´t say anything about the cause because everything changes directly after that the fish died. To found an internal parasite is not the same as a fish with a disease that´s need a treatment.

With all respect for Humblefish - I have read tonnes of articles about diplomonads and every one stress how difficult it is to identify these different organisms. I will repost this link that is an in deep article about the diplomonads.

I have a 87 page long build thread where my way of handling this and other things is well documented - just read.

If you do not have noticed - this first post was an instruction how to deal with white stringy poops - and most of the post suporting my thoughts also have solutions how to treat and which indicators that is important. However - I have another approach than you - therefore I´m a naysayer.

Once again - there is a reason why these drugs are banned for food production.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Every single stringy white poop I’ve ever examined under a microscope had (worm) eggs or parasites attached to it. Every necropsy I’ve performed where a fish had stringy white poo, flagellates were found in the gastrointestinal tract

The potential problem with this logic is that without knowing how many fish with normal poop - or how many fish when necropsied with no stringy poop also had flagellates or similar pathology under the microscope.

All medications are harmful/have side effects. No doubt about that. However, there is no evidence that food soaking praziquantel, metronidazole, fenbendazole, etc. is any more or less dangerous than any other medication we use. I’ve tried repeatedly just dosing metronidazole in the water (every 48 hours for weeks) to eliminate internal flagellates, and that flat out isn’t potent enough. (I use pharmaceutical grade metro.) There is some evidence, however, that Chloroquine in water can eliminate internal flagellates (maybe the fish metabolizes more of it?) However, that doesn’t help anthias, flasher wrasses and other CP intolerant species. Which, ironically, seem most prone to internal flagellates.

Have you tried fembendazole in bath form - it is supposedly virtually non-toxic and very effective. The problem I have with medicated food has always been how do you prevent the biggest fish from getting an overdose? How do you really know at all the dose you're giving?

There seems to be a trend developing where some just want to be naysayers or act contrary. It is easy to criticize; not so easy to offer alternative solutions to a problem (fish health). Both @HotRocks and myself have taken the time to write clear, detailed QT protocols to follow. Yes, we do advocate chemoprophylaxis… Not because we think it is a good option, but rather we feel it is a necessary evil based upon our experiences with the US supply chain. I understand some of you are against chemoprophylaxis. I would encourage you then to write DETAILED, THOROUGH guidelines for keeping fish healthy and also how to deal with newly acquired fish. To point readers to as an alternative to what we are advocating. Theories and long-winded explanations are great, but what hobbyists need is a step-by-step guide outlining your methods. So, step up to the plate, attach your name to a method for keeping fish healthy, and let’s see if its repeatable. Hopefully we all can learn from one another.

Look, I know there’s a lot of bickering going on, but I think at the end of the day we all want healthy fish. So instead of constantly trying to cut one another off at the knees, work together for the common good. Be good to one another, and remember we are all on “TEAM FISH” together.

Maybe I'm one of the 'nay sayers'. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. The old saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' comes to mind. Dont take this the wrong way - I just mean good intentions doesnt mean you're correct. For @Humblefish or anyone to imply that anyone that disagrees with a certain quarantine protocol is somehow a bad person - I think is incorrect thinking. (This at least seems to be the tone above - but I may be misreading).

BTW - I don't agree with parts of @Paul B's protocol I dont agree with everything @Lasse says (and contrary to what you said - I believe he has provided detailed protocols).

I agree with and appreciate a lot of your advice and @HotRocks and 4Fordfamily's advice. But - If I see something that doesn't make sense scientifically - I don't think I should not make a comment or ask a question because the poster had 'good intentions'. Or?

If I post something and someone questions me or corrects me - should I call that bickering? Or should I consider what was said - and either agree with the person who questioned me - or respond?

I have asked this question many times but never received an answer: 1. If there is 'such a problem in the US supply chain' how do at least 60-70 percent of reefers (per recent polls) get away with no chemoprophylaxis?

 

[Gareth elliott]

I have asked this question many times but never received an answer: 1. If there is 'such a problem in the US supply chain' how do at least 60-70 percent of reefers (per recent polls) get away with no chemoprophylaxis?

I know the vast majority of fish keepers do not QT but for this to be valid statistic there are a lot of unknowns. How many that do not treat lose fish and replace without informing anyone? How many of these keepers keep fish to at least half their normal life expectancies?(i say half as there are not many in the hobby long enough to have a decades old clownfish [emoji23]) How do these reefers quantify success if they post that they are? Id like to consider myself ok so far with marine fish, but I have lost a clown to jumping, a wrasse that arrived ill, another wrasse to jumping, and a fire fish that at 3-4 years of owning purchased at full size may have died of old age. Only state to say: what percentage of fish keepers actually quantify there fish losses when they say they successfully keep fish healthy?

 

[MnFish1]

I know the vast majority of fish keepers do not QT but for this to be valid statistic there are a lot of unknowns. How many that do not treat lose fish and replace without informing anyone? How many of these keepers keep fish to at least half their normal life expectancies?(i say half as there are not many in the hobby long enough to have a decades old clownfish [emoji23]) How do these reefers quantify success if they post that they are? Id like to consider myself ok so far with marine fish, but I have lost a clown to jumping, a wrasse that arrived ill, another wrasse to jumping, and a fire fish that at 3-4 years of owning purchased at full size may have died of old age. Only state to say: what percentage of fish keepers actually quantify there fish losses when they say they successfully keep fish healthy?

Completely agree - The polls are certainly not scientific. I guess I was trying to find out - if the supply chain is SO contaminated - presumably with CI, Velvet, Brook, intestinal parasites, uronema to justify protocols with sometimes up to 3 medications - How are so many people who don't use those protocols succeed (at all)? Is it immunity? Is it that the supply chain is really not that contaminated? Are they lucky? I posted (cant remember which thread) - the protocol one large supplier used for their new fish - before shipping. Do fish that come from their company do better than those from another company that doesn't do anything to mitigate disease? DO fish that come from a supplier like that need the same protocol as a fish taken directly out of the ocean? IDK....

BTW - an LFS here - just got an email - is remodeling because they are installing "a >1000 gallon QT system" Does one need the same quarantine protocol for fish from this store? IDK...

 

[HotRocks]

The potential problem with this logic is that without knowing how many fish with normal poop - or how many fish when necropsied with no stringy poop also had flagellates or similar pathology under the microscope.



Have you tried fembendazole in bath form - it is supposedly virtually non-toxic and very effective. The problem I have with medicated food has always been how do you prevent the biggest fish from getting an overdose? How do you really know at all the dose you're giving?



Maybe I'm one of the 'nay sayers'. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. The old saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' comes to mind. Dont take this the wrong way - I just mean good intentions doesnt mean you're correct. For @Humblefish or anyone to imply that anyone that disagrees with a certain quarantine protocol is somehow a bad person - I think is incorrect thinking. (This at least seems to be the tone above - but I may be misreading).

BTW - I don't agree with parts of @Paul B's protocol I dont agree with everything @Lasse says (and contrary to what you said - I believe he has provided detailed protocols).

I agree with and appreciate a lot of your advice and @HotRocks and 4Fordfamily's advice. But - If I see something that doesn't make sense scientifically - I don't think I should not make a comment or ask a question because the poster had 'good intentions'. Or?

If I post something and someone questions me or corrects me - should I call that bickering? Or should I consider what was said - and either agree with the person who questioned me - or respond?

I have asked this question many times but never received an answer: 1. If there is 'such a problem in the US supply chain' how do at least 60-70 percent of reefers (per recent polls) get away with no chemoprophylaxis?

The polls here at R2R are hard to judge. Based on the size of the membership and the voter participation there is a HUGE gap lol.

Anyway here is one I took a while back. It's pretty interesting really.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/do-you-quarantine-your-fish.567347/

50/50 split.
Of the 50% actively QTing are almost a 50/50 split comparing prophylactic treatment vs observe and treat.

Then of the 50 percent who don't QT almost half of those voters are interested in QT. It was refreshing to see that.

 

[HotRocks]

BTW - an LFS here - just got an email - is remodeling because they are installing "a >1000 gallon QT system" Does one need the same quarantine protocol for fish from this store? IDK...

Well, IMO if they use a good protocol to treat inbound fish. Then you likely wouldn't need any QT at all. Maybe some observation to be sure until you trusted their treatment.

I think this is evidence of the worsening condition of the supply chain. Like I said earlier. I helped one store create a system to run therapeutic copper on all fish. This doesn't cover everything and they are in the business of selling fish so if you walk in on shipment day you might not get a "clean" fish.

Our biggest store here in town just bought the warehouse next door and built a full blown QT facility. So now you can only buy conditioned fish from them. Good for them. I haven't convinced them to let me take a tour yet... Maybe one day...

 

[MnFish1]

Well, IMO if they use a good protocol to treat inbound fish. Then you likely wouldn't need any QT at all. Maybe some observation to be sure until you trusted their treatment.

I think this is evidence of the worsening condition of the supply chain. Like I said earlier. I helped one store create a system to run therapeutic copper on all fish. This doesn't cover everything and they are in the business of selling fish so if you walk in on shipment day you might not get a "clean" fish.

Our biggest store here in town just bought the warehouse next door and built a full blown QT facility. So now you can only buy conditioned fish from them. Good for them. I haven't convinced them to let me take a tour yet... Maybe one day...

They already have a QT room and system - but I think they are upgrading. I will let you know when I find out their protocol.

 

[Mortie31]

I helped one store create a system to run therapeutic copper on all fish

But this isnt a solution this is simply moving the place of chemoprophylaxis. It doesn’t move things forward, and I think shows that no matter what you say about not wanting to medicate fish unnecessarily, you either can’t see another alternative or don’t want to see one. Which is exactly the position every single one of these chemoquarantine or observe discussions end, with no one agreeing and no one looking for change

 

[Mortie31]

50/50 split.
Of the 50% actively QTing are almost a 50/50 split comparing prophylactic treatment vs observe and treat.

Then of the 50 percent who don't QT almost half of those voters are interested in QT. It was refreshing to see that

This is interesting in that only 25% chemoquarantine, so to me this implies that of the 75% not doing it, either fish disease is not as prevalent, virulent or fish must develop some resistance as surely if the supply chain is as bad as a few of you are saying then there would be tank wipeouts everywhere.. something doesn’t quite fit here.. yes there are posts everyday on disease, but know where near enough to support your position, IMO, Unless everyone is just lying about disease and deaths, and the only way to get a measure of that would be to create a very friendly non judgemental thread where people could report, so we can try and get some numbers.
You highlight that it’s refreshing to see more people wanting to QT, if it’s observation then that’s good but if there being influenced to chemoquarantine then in my mind that isn’t refreshing it’s actually quite bad... especially given the lack of supporting evidence that the problem is as bad as suggested.

 

[HotRocks]

But this isnt a solution this is simply moving the place of chemoprophylaxis. It doesn’t move things forward, and I think shows that no matter what you say about not wanting to medicate fish unnecessarily, you either can’t see another alternative or don’t want to see one. Which is exactly the position every single one of these chemoquarantine or observe discussions end, with no one agreeing and no one looking for change

But this isnt a solution this is simply moving the place of chemoprophylaxis. It doesn’t move things forward, and I think shows that no matter what you say about not wanting to medicate fish unnecessarily, you either can’t see another alternative or don’t want to see one. Which is exactly the position every single one of these chemoquarantine or observe discussions end, with no one agreeing and no one looking for change

The alternative doesn't/didn't work.

Please elaborate on the store losing 50-70% of every single shipment, from 3-5 different wholesalers. That has now gone to losses of 10% or less immediately upon the change....

 

[Mortie31]

The alternative doesn't/didn't work.

Please elaborate on the store losing 50-70% of every single shipment, from 3-5 different wholesalers. That has now gone to losses of 10% or less immediately upon the change....

I can’t comment on the stores past procedures as I have no knowledge, but could potentially chemoquarantine now be covering up for a stressful poor husbandry practice.. the variables are unknown. If the shops terrible success rate prior to the changes, then how did he stay in business? As if we’re to believe everything said about disease transmission and mobidity then no fish he sold would of survived and/ or transmitted the disease/ parasites to all fish of everyone buying from him and as only 25% of R2R responders to your quoted survey chemoquarantine (and probably even lower amongst non readers) breakouts/ tank wipeouts would of been widespread and people would be complaining to him ... as I said previously something is missing the numbers just don’t add up

 

[chicago]

so on a side note.. what foods would you feed to help erradicate.. I mean foods that the fish will eat.. I never was able to get my fish to eat food soaked in prazzi.

 

[HotRocks]

I can’t comment on the stores past procedures as I have no knowledge, but could potentially chemoquarantine now be covering up for a stressful poor husbandry practice.. the variables are unknown. If the shops terrible success rate prior to the changes, then how did he stay in business? As if we’re to believe everything said about disease transmission and mobidity then no fish he sold would of survived and/ or transmitted the disease/ parasites to all fish of everyone buying from him and as only 25% of R2R responders to your quoted survey chemoquarantine (and probably even lower amongst non readers) breakouts/ tank wipeouts would of been widespread and people would be complaining to him ... as I said previously something is missing the numbers just don’t add up

I can tell you his facility does not have any husbandry issues. However his fish system is very simple. A protein skimmer is the only piece of equipment. It sits in a tote with some live rock and media for biological filtration that is linked to the tanks which basically all function as one. Not to mention if it was an issue that wasn't disease related the therapuetic copper would have likely exacerbated the issue even further. He's been at this for 25 years. It's something that's worsened over time.

I think there are several variables in which may determine whether a hobbyist finds the need for prophylactic treatment necessary. Type of fish, size of system, frequency of additions etc. It may not be for everyone and that's ok.

People sometimes struggle to adapt to change, it's just not the same as it was 25 years ago, in all facets of life... I would rather stay ahead of the curve, that's just me.

 

[MnFish1]

I can tell you his facility does not have any husbandry issues. However his fish system is very simple. A protein skimmer is the only piece of equipment. It sits in a tote with some live rock and media for biological filtration that is linked to the tanks which basically all function as one. Not to mention if it was an issue that wasn't disease related the therapuetic copper would have likely exacerbated the issue even further. He's been at this for 25 years. It's something that's worsened over time.

I think there are several variables in which may determine whether a hobbyist finds the need for prophylactic treatment necessary. Type of fish, size of system, frequency of additions etc. It may not be for everyone and that's ok.

People sometimes struggle to adapt to change, it's just not the same as it was 25 years ago, in all facets of life... I would rather stay ahead of the curve, that's just me.

I cant fault what you're saying - But - I think its difficult to take one store and apply it to the entire supply chain. Especially since in this store - (if im reading it correctly) - all the systems are connected. One thing that @Mortie31 brings up - is the numbers - if 50-70% of fish were dying at the store - it must mean they are getting wiped out at the wholesaler as well (probably in larger numbers).