Are these zoas light starved?

blasterman

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A. Grandis is just spreading more anti- LED crap because no other forum will tolerate him. He needs to be ignored. His spectral nonsense makes the professor from gilligan's island seem like Stephen Hawking in comparison. Also, basic physics dictates that water is opaque to infrared, at least the far wavelengths he's referring to.

I've had massive growth and success with Zoanthids for a decade with DIY and commercial LED rigs.

I've grown colonies of gobstoppers the size of grapefruit will LEDs and have two big colonies right now I don't know what to do with. Want pictures? Oh wait...I already have.

Ask A Grandis to show you pictures of his gobstopper colonies.
 
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A. grandis

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That would be purely anecdotal and worthless for proofs sake. I also never said one was superior to the other, only that you continually repeat that you believe halide is better. Not a very strong case to make when you have to resort to demanding proof to the contrary from others when you yourself can’t seem to provide evidence that backs your own case up.
When I put my opinion about light here you came trying to prove me wrong.
What I say I know for a fact.
Many of the members here were treating me like you are, asking for "proof". After they tried halides they apologize to me and we are very good friends. I hope that happens to you too...
I don't want to diminish LEDs. They already do that by themselves!
Do me a favor... go to a store or find someone in your town that has halides and see for yourself.
You will love the results.
There is absolutely no one in the world that can say ANY LED will win for colors and growth!
They can find other excuses, but not color and growth.
And that is for SPS, LPS, Clams, anemones and zoas.
I already forgive you because I'm sure you've never tried not saw a well maintained system with halides in front of your eyes.
 
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A. grandis

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A. Grandis is just spreading more anti- LED crap because no other forum will tolerate him. He needs to be ignored. His spectral nonsense makes the professor from gilligan's island seem like Stephen Hawking in comparison. Also, basic physics dictates that water is opaque to infrared, at least the far wavelengths he's referring to.

I've had massive growth and success with Zoanthids for a decade with DIY and commercial LED rigs.

I've grown colonies of gobstoppers the size of grapefruit will LEDs and have two big colonies right now I don't know what to do with. Want pictures? Oh wait...I already have.

Ask A Grandis to show you pictures of his gobstopper colonies.
I think you are very upset and should be the one to be ignored here with your nonsense post.

Edit: Ok, post your pictures. Let's see your wonderful system and those zoas... Show those LEDs too!
Have you ever tried halides? Or you are just trying to justify that initial cost that has been hunting you all along??
 
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warlocktitan

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To be fair, Zoas are the most easy to growth under almost any lighting whether MH, T5 or Led.

Light is light provide you have the GOOD spectrum not CORRECTING one because with current Led technology does not have very close sun spectrum as MH or combo T5 tubes.

Despite advance in led technology the spectrum is getting better but the problem is lied with hobbyist not the led itself.
Led users tend to mess with the led spectrum by tweaking too many setting to their visual liking that cause unsettling results.
My questions to all led users, why most led users tend to run too heavy blue setting instead of full spectrum LED manufacturer design intended?
From the Radion full spectrum spectral graph, it's quite appealing spectrum although the intensity is not quite comparable to sun spectrum but nevertheless is quite useful.

Compare to MH and T5, you can't tweak the MH or T5 except changing the bulbs with certain characteristic spectrum that you want best for coral growing and color rendition.
Metal halides are perhaps the best source of high CRI white light on the market.
CRI is a measurement of a light’s ability to reveal the actual color of objects as compared to an ideal light source (natural light). High CRI is generally a desirable characteristic (although of course, it depends on the required application). If your goal is to illuminate a scene such that the colors all reveal as they would naturally.
IMHO you get fastest growth from SPS, even LPS from MH and T5 combo instead of led alone.
With intelligently schedule to optimize energy usage for coral growth and color rendition, why not combine all three technologies with different timer setting so that you can max the growth and be happy.

Example lighting schedule hybrid of MH, T5 and Led.
10-12 hours for led, 6-8 Hrs for T5 and 4-6 hrs for MH
let assume you want your lighting schedule at 10am.
10 am -10 pm led striplight like Reefbrite XHO High Power LED either 50/50 or Actinic Blue to kick start the day, you can use your existing led of choice to modify your color spectrum accordingly.
12 noon T5 kick in until 6-8pm
2 pm MH kick in for 4 to 6 hours depend on how you like for your corals.
When you have simple of set and forget schedule like this with minimum fuss about tweaking your own spectrum the far more success you will have.
Of Course you can increase or decrease your choice of lighting technology schedule to your best advantage without fuzzing with too much tweaking light spectrum.

The misconception about MH energy usage is somewhat unfounded when you can combine with current lighting technology.

For example if you have 4 ft tank:
150 Watts of MH bulb for 4 hours, 4 T5 bulbs of 54W for 6 hrs, 48" Reef Brite 50⁄50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT of 72W for 10-12 hrs.
Daily Wattages of all three lights usage is 600W+1296W+720W=2616W

To get good light spread and run full spectrum from led I will take example of popular EcoTech Marine RADION XR30W G4 PRO LED LIGHT FIXTURE.
You will need 2-3 of this fixtures, in order to get full spread of 4x2x2 tank optimum will required 3 units.
So let say you run full spectrum for 10 hrs at 190W each of three fixtures will use 190Wx3x10=5700W at maximum intensity but in reality you probably use 50-70% for ramp up and down according your need.

Even at 50% with all the intelligent schedule accordingly to simulate sunrise and sunset, 5700W/2 at minimum usage still yield 2850W.

Both setup yield nearly the same wattages. So it's even in term of power usage.

In term of cost analysis Led vs MH/T5/Led combo

Pure Led technology setup:
EcoTech Marine RADION XR30W G4 PRO LED LIGHT FIXTURE at $839.99 each so 3 units will net $2519.97 for total initial cost.

Hybrid technology setup:
MH 48" Metal Halide T5 Aquarium Light 716W Coral Reef Marine LED 2x 250W Bulbs $295
48" 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT $296.35
Total initial cost will be $295+296.35=$591.35
So you can see the initial cost is quite high with led tech.

I chose EcoTech Marine RADION technology as it's one of the most popular led setup beside the AI, the different cost between is marginal.
I chose not to pick the cheaper led from chinese alternative made for the sake of proven record of growing not to said that you can not growth well with the alternative chinese led made.

For long term spread between these two setup.
Led suppose to last for 3-5 years but in reality the most is three years due to upgrade cost because it's the trend most hobbyist want the latest tech that why mostly chose led for this reason.

Led setup for three years cost stay the same as your initial investment cost. Total cost after three years is $2519.97

Hybrid setup (MH/T5/Led):
when you run 4-6 hrs, the bulb will last you long time without color intensity degradation so let just assume you want to replace the bulbs once a year. (2 DE bulbs cost average of $12 to $ $90 depend on what brand name you use so let say average $55 each so total is $110 per year).
3 years term will cost $330
T5 bulbs x 4 at $24 each so 4x$24=$96. Three years replacement cost will be $288.
Led strip light stay same after three years.
So total cost for this hybrid setup after three years will be $591.35+$330+$288=$1209.35

Well it's up to individual to pick what best for them, either Led or Hybrid setup or pure MH as long as they can satisfy with the results.
If you want sleek looking hitech for your tank then Led is quite attractive.
If you want proven record of growth and colorization naturally looking with much cheaper cost then go with hybrid setup.
 
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warlocktitan

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Natural Sunlight in a bottle!
The HORTILUX Daylight Blue Metal Halide is so close to the sun light spectrum.

BLUE_mt1000b-noheader-nf.png
 

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A. grandis

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And practically speaking... if we get the very best LEDs in the world today with the most efficient settings, applying the spectrum with "efficacy" and with the same wattage of any metal halide bulb, the metal halide will produce the best colors, including those wonderful protective pigments we find in the ocean, and the best growth rate in the long run. Because any LED in existence will not produce the same "whites" and amount of UV halides can.
 

A. grandis

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But is is a matter of taste as I always put!
I always say that if you like the results of LED you need to stick with that, cause halides won't give you such results! No one can force you to like the halides. One needs to accept that the results from halides are the closest of what we find in the ocean. That is my point with the videos. And in the long run your zoas will show colony structure different than in the ocean, if you use LEDs.
Many people never even got wet (snorkeling/diving) in their lives nor tested halides yet. That's why they don't know better. You can't compare by theories/graphics only!
One source of light isn't better than other per say, but the results are very dfferent. Comparison with nature's results, halides win!
Nature dictates my taste and the way I want my zoas growing at home. That is what health means to me and what I recomend for the ultimate reproduction od the ocean because that's where they came from and is the best environment to be compared to.
To reproduce the natural environment is to give OPTIMAL conditions for an OPTIMAL healthy result.
SPS, LPS, softs, zoanthids, clams, anemones...
 
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A. grandis

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To be fair, Zoas are the most easy to growth under almost any lighting whether MH, T5 or Led.

Light is light provide you have the GOOD spectrum not CORRECTING one because with current Led technology does not have very close sun spectrum as MH or combo T5 tubes.

Despite advance in led technology the spectrum is getting better but the problem is lied with hobbyist not the led itself.
Led users tend to mess with the led spectrum by tweaking too many setting to their visual liking that cause unsettling results.
My questions to all led users, why most led users tend to run too heavy blue setting instead of full spectrum LED manufacturer design intended?
From the Radion full spectrum spectral graph, it's quite appealing spectrum although the intensity is not quite comparable to sun spectrum but nevertheless is quite useful.

Compare to MH and T5, you can't tweak the MH or T5 except changing the bulbs with certain characteristic spectrum that you want best for coral growing and color rendition.
Metal halides are perhaps the best source of high CRI white light on the market.
CRI is a measurement of a light’s ability to reveal the actual color of objects as compared to an ideal light source (natural light). High CRI is generally a desirable characteristic (although of course, it depends on the required application). If your goal is to illuminate a scene such that the colors all reveal as they would naturally.
IMHO you get fastest growth from SPS, even LPS from MH and T5 combo instead of led alone.
With intelligently schedule to optimize energy usage for coral growth and color rendition, why not combine all three technologies with different timer setting so that you can max the growth and be happy.

Example lighting schedule hybrid of MH, T5 and Led.
10-12 hours for led, 6-8 Hrs for T5 and 4-6 hrs for MH
let assume you want your lighting schedule at 10am.
10 am -10 pm led striplight like Reefbrite XHO High Power LED either 50/50 or Actinic Blue to kick start the day, you can use your existing led of choice to modify your color spectrum accordingly.
12 noon T5 kick in until 6-8pm
2 pm MH kick in for 4 to 6 hours depend on how you like for your corals.
When you have simple of set and forget schedule like this with minimum fuss about tweaking your own spectrum the far more success you will have.
Of Course you can increase or decrease your choice of lighting technology schedule to your best advantage without fuzzing with too much tweaking light spectrum.

The misconception about MH energy usage is somewhat unfounded when you can combine with current lighting technology.

For example if you have 4 ft tank:
150 Watts of MH bulb for 4 hours, 4 T5 bulbs of 54W for 6 hrs, 48" Reef Brite 50⁄50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT of 72W for 10-12 hrs.
Daily Wattages of all three lights usage is 600W+1296W+720W=2616W

To get good light spread and run full spectrum from led I will take example of popular EcoTech Marine RADION XR30W G4 PRO LED LIGHT FIXTURE.
You will need 2-3 of this fixtures, in order to get full spread of 4x2x2 tank optimum will required 3 units.
So let say you run full spectrum for 10 hrs at 190W each of three fixtures will use 190Wx3x10=5700W at maximum intensity but in reality you probably use 50-70% for ramp up and down according your need.

Even at 50% with all the intelligent schedule accordingly to simulate sunrise and sunset, 5700W/2 at minimum usage still yield 2850W.

Both setup yield nearly the same wattages. So it's even in term of power usage.

In term of cost analysis Led vs MH/T5/Led combo

Pure Led technology setup:
EcoTech Marine RADION XR30W G4 PRO LED LIGHT FIXTURE at $839.99 each so 3 units will net $2519.97 for total initial cost.

Hybrid technology setup:
MH 48" Metal Halide T5 Aquarium Light 716W Coral Reef Marine LED 2x 250W Bulbs $295
48" 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT $296.35
Total initial cost will be $295+296.35=$591.35
So you can see the initial cost is quite high with led tech.

I chose EcoTech Marine RADION technology as it's one of the most popular led setup beside the AI, the different cost between is marginal.
I chose not to pick the cheaper led from chinese alternative made for the sake of proven record of growing not to said that you can not growth well with the alternative chinese led made.

For long term spread between these two setup.
Led suppose to last for 3-5 years but in reality the most is three years due to upgrade cost because it's the trend most hobbyist want the latest tech that why mostly chose led for this reason.

Led setup for three years cost stay the same as your initial investment cost. Total cost after three years is $2519.97

Hybrid setup (MH/T5/Led):
when you run 4-6 hrs, the bulb will last you long time without color intensity degradation so let just assume you want to replace the bulbs once a year. (2 DE bulbs cost average of $12 to $ $90 depend on what brand name you use so let say average $55 each so total is $110 per year).
3 years term will cost $330
T5 bulbs x 4 at $24 each so 4x$24=$96. Three years replacement cost will be $288.
Led strip light stay same after three years.
So total cost for this hybrid setup after three years will be $591.35+$330+$288=$1209.35

Well it's up to individual to pick what best for them, either Led or Hybrid setup or pure MH as long as they can satisfy with the results.
If you want sleek looking hitech for your tank then Led is quite attractive.
If you want proven record of growth and colorization naturally looking with much cheaper cost then go with hybrid setup.
The hybrid solution with LEDs to get the optimal reef system in terms of resembling natural environment results is mostly to get those LED lovers to enjoy the LED visual effects that halides and/or T5s will never be able to IMHO. Many friends are already doing that, leaving their LEDs on when they come back from work at night, and halide/T5s during the day for the "punch". I personally don't care for the LED effects and therefore sold my fixtures long ago. It is a solution for visual appealing but unnecessary in terms of saving electricity or to achieve the optimal results. All my systems with LEDs, T5s and/or with halides had basically the same amount of electricity usage because the photoperiod had to be adjusted in order to avoid photoinhibition in each case. Chiller would have work basically the same in every situation because of that also, so it wouldn't matter much money wise. Initial cost with the LEDs in the combo will be unnecessarily higher in my point of view. I do not condemn such combos though. This is just a hobby and should be enjoyed as each of us wish, personally. Combos like that will bring much better colony structure, color and healthy growth to any system. It is also important to note that halides alone will supply most, if not all, the needs one would have to offer in order to achieve those optimal results. Best combo that I use and recommend is metal halide/T5 system.
 

warlocktitan

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The hybrid solution with LEDs to get the optimal reef system in terms of resembling natural environment results is mostly to get those LED lovers to enjoy the LED visual effects that halides and/or T5s will never be able to IMHO. Many friends are already doing that, leaving their LEDs on when they come back from work at night, and halide/T5s during the day for the "punch". I personally don't care for the LED effects and therefore sold my fixtures long ago. It is a solution for visual appealing but unnecessary in terms of saving electricity or to achieve the optimal results. All my systems with LEDs, T5s and/or with halides had basically the same amount of electricity usage because the photoperiod had to be adjusted in order to avoid photoinhibition in each case. Chiller would have work basically the same in every situation because of that also, so it wouldn't matter much money wise. Initial cost with the LEDs in the combo will be unnecessarily higher in my point of view. I do not condemn such combos though. This is just a hobby and should be enjoyed as each of us wish, personally. Combos like that will bring much better colony structure, color and healthy growth to any system. It is also important to note that halides alone will supply most, if not all, the needs one would have to offer in order to achieve those optimal results. Best combo that I use and recommend is metal halide/T5 system.
I agree MH/T5 combo is more than good enough to provide all the spectrum need for coral. In the old time before T5 came along, all we got was MH starting with 3000K then another kind of metal halide lamp is the halogen metal iodide or HMI lamp. It is mainly used for photography since it makes a 5600K light (matching natural daylight) and has a great CRI. The lamp has a optimum combination of metal halides made of rare earth metals. It has a quartz discharge tube with rod-shaped electrodes made of tungsten and a power supply of high voltage DC .
As each year go by MH keep improve to specific commercial need and finally translate to aquaculture and horticulture that produce more blueish spectrum that raise the color temp to 20K and beyond, I find an european company actually produce 30K MH that can help to boost that coral fluorescent but not nearly enough like led blue spectrum to create that artificial pop that why led being incorporate to produce the candy effect to the eyes which my visit friends and family members prefer the look.
I am ok with either look but much prefer the natural look as the coral would be in the nature as I know it's not really that beneficial to coral long term health when certain UV and blue spectra would cause such reaction.
Corals generally get their glow from fluorescent pigments that act as sunblock. The sun's intense rays, which can sunburn swimmers and divers that flock to these reefs, cause similar damage to coral and zooxanthellae, the symbiotic algae that lives inside coral.
When scientist illuminated the corals with blue or ultraviolet light—mimicking what's found in the ocean depths—he found that they could also glow red or green. Interestingly, he also discovered that the corals could produce these pigments in the absence of any light at all.
This, combined with the general lack of sunlight at these depths, means that these pigments weren't acting as a sunscreen.
Instead, the researchers believe that the pigments help make more light for their symbiotic algae, which need it for photosynthesis. Happy algae translates to more oxygen and other benefits for the coral.
In essence, blue spectrum produced by led has certain advantage to a reef tank but to growth solely on leds is not efficiency IMHO.
When I mention the term intelligent schedule meaning, when I run my reef tank in winter as Canada is very cold during winter month, I will increase my MH time upto 8 and even 10 hrs as it provide heat to my tank so that I don't need to depend much my heater to keep my tank warm that much.
In summer I may only run 4 hrs or less depend how hot it is and I don't use chiller to cool it down by intelligently boost more time to led running while reduce the MH and T5 down, I don't use chiller to cool it down but rather using fans to blow at tank surface that keep its cool enough but I keep refilling the RODI water to compensate the water evaporate.
So in essence I still say the initial cost of led is higher.
 

A. grandis

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You have a good light schedule for what you want.
Yes, agreed. Absolutely. Not all pigments found in corals are produced as protective pigments, of course. I believe most pigments aren't directly related to UV either, but to high intensity (specially pinks and blues). So, yeah, there are many other types of pigments that aren't produced as for an UV protective function. And that is true to most shallow water corals. It is important to know that most of the organisms we have in the hobby comes from shallow waters. In nature, where those corals come from, the PAR can be really high! Zoanthids are found in extremely shallow waters (see videos!)!!
Talking about intensity, the compensation point (minimum amount of light required by the zooxanthellae) of most corals in the hobby is probably around ~270μmol, depending on the shallow water coral or zoanthid and where it was found. The saturation point (where the increase of amount of light will not increase the rate of photosynthesis) of most shallow water corals and zoanthids is ~300-400μmol. Those numbers are important to determinate the amount of light that will produce the optimal conditions for the natural growth and colors to develop. Halides will produce those qualities (and more!) and be utilized in our tanks without problems, while LEDs will provoke bleaching because of the nature of the light and how it is delivered (lenses). That's why LEDs need to be used with much less intensity than other sources of light, therefore prohibiting the utilization of natural levels. There are many other substantial differences between the types of artificial lights like distribution, reflection, so...

Great authors, including the so called "guru of lighting", Dr. Sanjay Joshi, have published the lack of qualities of his Radion G4 LEDs in keeping and maintaining some coral colors. Yet Radion is known to be one of the "best" LED fixtures today. In reality the metal halide Radium still reigns in that position instead! It is not by accident that they called their LEDs Radion. Another great market strategy.

I think people get really protective and try to ignore the physical aspects of the natural environment because of the huge propaganda of LEDs, or they don't know better. I really feel sorry for most of the LED users that don't care about searching and just trust in any type of propaganda and current information from dealers and companies. There are so many problems with LEDs... the light forum is full of messages to try to solve those problems and many "fashions" coming and going as temporary solutions... the problems remain or change names, with different ideas. Things are slowly changing though as more people are adopting halides and T5s as their main source of light. Those people are so happy with their systems and will never look back.
I think there is not much to say after all this, but let others choose what they can or what they want.
Peace to all.
 

A. grandis

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Here is one of the nicest videos to show colors using halides.
This video proves my points. 600W halides over the system. ;Wideyed
Can you do that with any LEDs???
 

TrojanScott

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My very first post here! Was on reefcentral, (still am) for years, but don't post much. Have been in the hobby a long time. Saw this thread posted on Instagram, read through, and felt the need to join and post.
In regards to leds, halides, etc. I have done them ALL. Power compacts back in the day. I ran halides over a 180 for a long time. Nothing beats the shimmer, the growth, and the overall look of halides, there is nothing better. With that said, due to heat, convenience, (bulb changing) and power consumption, I made the switch to LEDS two years ago. Overall, I feel they're a nice, happy medium. The colors are great, it's cool to be able to adjust and tinker. Tank runs cooler, and no bulb changes. No fans running in my canopy. No chiller. (I stopped using a chiller last few years with halides anyway, the extra cost, the heat they put into a room, counterproductive in my opinion, so I ran my tank at 83 degrees) Anyway, babbling a bit here, but LEDs are great. I'm not in the SPS game any more, but do have a couple clams on the sand, they're thriving. LPS mostly for me, all doing well. I also am not trying to grow coral for sale, so slow growth is fine by me. To each his own.
So, in short, as someone said in the thread, Halides you can't beat. But, overall for cost and convenience, I won't switch back from LEDs.
 
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HotManwich

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If LEDs and MH both produce the same wavelength of light, how would that differ?
A photon is an elementary particle. Whether its produced by an LED or an MH bulb, if it has the same wavelength it will be literally the exact same. Being produced by a different source wont change the physical makeup of a packet of energy.
230nm is the exact same as 230nm, regardless of the source.
If an LED strip produces the same wavelengths and intensities as an MH bulb, there should really be no difference between them.
The only difference I can think of is that an MH bulb is a continuous source of light while LEDs are individual points, which is likely why MH have that better shimmer and color blending.
 

A. grandis

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Therefore we know they can't produce/emit exactly the same photons and in the same manner. Otherwise LED companies would be able to counterfeit those amazing halide bulbs that have been working wonderfully for so many years.
 

Dana Riddle

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I offer this photo for a subject of debate. I was invited into a fellow hobbyist's house in Atlanta to look at his systems. He was specifically interested in PPFD, so I took an Apogee MQ520 meter. PPFD (or PAR if you will) is 7 to 15 microMol/m2/sec and the photo should speak for itself. Lighting is an LED fixture (from a 15-gallon BioCube if my memory is correct), running mostly blue for 24 hours a day. I was surprised at his success!
1571510791891.png
 

A. grandis

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I offer this photo for a subject of debate. I was invited into a fellow hobbyist's house in Atlanta to look at his systems. He was specifically interested in PPFD, so I took an Apogee MQ520 meter. PPFD (or PAR if you will) is 7 to 15 microMol/m2/sec and the photo should speak for itself. Lighting is an LED fixture (from a 15-gallon BioCube if my memory is correct), running mostly blue for 24 hours a day. I was surprised at his success!
1571510791891.png
Why were you surprised at his success?
 

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