Are water changes needed??

[Fiona22222]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

 

[Fiona22222]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

Also does this mean I don't have to do water changes?! •○•

 

[Digimes]

Ok, so water changes are to make up for an incomplete biological cycle that takes place in the ocean. If you can completely compensate the cycle, then water changes are not needed. I used a plenum system in my 180g, years ago, and it would consume all the nitrates in the bottom. This effectively eliminated my need for water changes. On my current 5g, I do a 1/2 change twice a month but that is because it's too small for me to build a complete bio cycle.

 

[Lasse]

Also does this mean I don't have to do water changes?! •○•

I´m a no regular WC guy from my toes to my head - I do WC when I need. But I run a 310 L tank with a lot of technique in order to withhold my tank (a mixed reef) in good condition. Including anaerobic breakdown as @Digimes did. You are planing a tank around 50 L and FOWLR. IMO - its a small tank and fish does not need all the trace elements that corals do. In this case I would go for regular WC and a good salt like D-D H2Ocean Natural Reef Salt. Bur regular may be 0nce a week, every second week or so. It can be once a month too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[fushi]

So I rarely do water changes, and when I do its to clean out detritus in a tank I have been neglecting.

This doesn’t directly pertain to FOWLR tanks but its a good read in regards to no water changes.
RM Handbook

But basically if your able to eliminate excess nutrients with filtration and replace anything (elements, etc.) being used up you dont need to change the water.

 

[Fiona22222]

Ok, so water changes are to make up for an incomplete biological cycle that takes place in the ocean. If you can completely compensate the cycle, then water changes are not needed. I used a plenum system in my 180g, years ago, and it would consume all the nitrates in the bottom. This effectively eliminated my need for water changes. On my current 5g, I do a 1/2 change twice a month but that is because it's too small for me to build a complete bio cycle.

That makes looaaaadddds of sense, thank you, also your tank and corals look stunning!

 

[Fiona22222]

I´m a no regular WC guy from my toes to my head - I do WC when I need. But I run a 310 L tank with a lot of technique in order to withhold my tank (a mixed reef) in good condition. Including anaerobic breakdown as @Digimes did. You are planing a tank around 50 L and FOWLR. IMO - its a small tank and fish does not need all the trace elements that corals do. In this case I would go for regular WC and a good salt like D-D H2Ocean Natural Reef Salt. Bur regular may be 0nce a week, every second week or so. It can be once a month too

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks, I really appreciate it!

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I do weekly water changes on my 3 tanks, always have. and probably always will.

On small tanks like what you are planning, weekly water changes are the easiest way to maintain good water quality, and as a means of filtration. To run a tank without water changes, IMO, requires experience and knowledge, and a large investment in filtration and dosing machines.

 

[Fiona22222]

I do weekly water changes on my 3 tanks, always have. and probably always will.

On small tanks like what you are planning, weekly water changes are the easiest way to maintain good water quality, and as a means of filtration. To run a tank without water changes, IMO, requires experience and knowledge, and a large investment in filtration and dosing machines.

Oooh that's probably what I will do as well then! Thanks Mr. Mojo

 

[wculver]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

It is best to rely on the biological cycle for waste if at all possible instead of water change for both nitrates and phosphates. I have suggestions on this if you like.

The reason I do water changes is not because of waste or detritus, it is for ionic balance. This actually comes down to the trace elements in the tank that you cannot regularly test for affordably. ICP tests are the only way. So I have found water changes manage to keep these parameters aligned. You can dose for trace also but I have run into issues with that such as over dosing with very small doses.

I do 10% water change every couple weeks and I don't have to dose for trace elements.

 

[Dom]

The purpose of a water change is two fold.

First, water changes serve as a means of removing nutrients. Second, water changes replenish elements consumed by the tank.

On the tank size you are considering, faithful, weekly, 20% water changes are easy enough to do. I'd stick with that and enjoy a healthy tank.

 

[Nano_Man]

If you don’t do water changes you have too dose trace elements and so on which can be cost a lot over the year . Water changes replaces all your needed elements for a thriving reef . Yes no water change tanks can be run but changing water is better imo

 

[Fiona22222]

The purpose of a water change is two fold.

First, water changes serve as a means of removing nutrients. Second, water changes replenish elements consumed by the tank.

On the tank size you are considering, faithful, weekly, 20% water changes are easy enough to do. I'd stick with that and enjoy a healthy tank.

Thanks Dom!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

Needed? Obviously no.

Potentially useful? Entirely different question, and I'd suggest the answer is often yes.

 

[Yamsuph]

Not to make enemies but, I guess you don’t HAVE TO make water changes. You can be as lazy as you want with this hobby. If you never do them you have nothing to compare to. So this is what I would say: After setting up your tank and spending all that money on getting it just how you want it, make yourself on a consistent basis do a 20% weekly water change. If you NEVER do one it’s true, your coral and fish won’t cough but, if you do for a month or two you will see a huge benefit. There is definitely science to technique in this hobby that is great to cut the labor but in this instance, judge by the behavior and look of the environment you are keeping!

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

Few things, 1 there are benefits to water changes, not much benefit to not doing them aside from stability if you have everything dosing right where you want it. But there are things you may not be able to remove from the water column that dilution via water change will. What those things are we don't know, toxins, contaminants, disolved organics.

But I don't change my water.

However I also rarely change our fw, only when I see the airation creating bibbles that don't pop. Which is absurd how far you can go.

We have a 55G goldfish tank with 9 very large fancies, I have gone months without changing it, the nitrates accorsing to api via dilution is somewhere in the 130 range, but everything is going fine. Is there a benefit to this? No, we need to supliment calcium because its not bring introduced by water changes, well, aside from less work... My wife feeds them super heavily, and some of them are 9 inches long mouth to tip of tail (big tails though) we have a 5 inch substrate on it to allow extra denitrification, and lots and lots of plants for nutruent export.

There are ways to go without water changes, there are situations where its beneficial to stop then for a time. My reef is doing astoundingly well, and I have to add nutrients because my nutrient export outcompetes my heavy feeding. But I imagine, it could look just as good if instead of playing mad scientist and locking in a bunch of dosing pumps to make up for it, it could look just as good replacing the effort of extra testing doing math and keeping schedules, for the effort of moving 40 gallons of water every week or 2.

On the otherhand, the traces and carbon are all cheaper than salt for me.

 

[Pistondog]

Hellllooooo

I have been researching SW FOWLR tanks for a while in the hope of getting either the Fluval 53l or the Fluval 19l Spec V for Christmas.

I have been a fresh water girly for my whole life since I was 10 and have always thought that weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent was what everyone did no matter if it was fresh or salt water to combat the waste produced by fish.

However now I am rather befuddled because many Pro Reefers seem to say that doing water changes is not needed. I get that the nitrogen cycle breaks down the waste but I thought that because there were still nitrates water changes were needed.

Does salt water magic away poop, does it disappear, it is eaten? I am confuddled. Help would be very appreciated please because the mystery of fish poop is baffling me lol

Thanks for reading the long crappy (pun intended) post )

Corals and other critters do magic away poop, and as your corals grow youll likely need to dose back elements they use to build their bodies. It may not be necessary to do regular water changes. However, there are likely some organics that build up that are not consumed or filtered by processes in our tanks that eventually require dilution by water changes.
Small daily water changes minimize the water parametrr disruption caused by larger weekly changes.

 

[slythy]

I have a 70g reef that I do 1 gallon water changes every day with my controller. Small and often is better than big and less frequent imo. With salt you need to go slow as well.

Its as crazy as you want to make it

 

[Raul-7]

We have a 55G goldfish tank with 9 very large fancies, I have gone months without changing it, the nitrates accorsing to api via dilution is somewhere in the 130 range, but everything is going fine. Is there a benefit to this? No, we need to supliment calcium because its not bring introduced by water changes, well, aside from less work... My wife feeds them super heavily, and some of them are 9 inches long mouth to tip of tail (big tails though) we have a 5 inch substrate on it to allow extra denitrification, and lots and lots of plants for nutruent export.

How do you make that claim that 130mg/L is not causing any harm? Based on what?

Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates - PubMed

Published data on nitrate (NO3-) toxicity to freshwater and marine animals are reviewed. New data on nitrate toxicity to the freshwater invertebrates Eulimnogammarus toletanus, Echinogammarus echinosetosus and Hydropsyche exocellata are also presented. The main toxic action of nitrate is due to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Simultaneous exposure to nitrate and low pH reduces the blood oxygen-carrying capacity and functional performance of a freshwater fish

Exposure to elevated nitrate and acidic pH impaired oxygen uptake and reduced swimming performance, growth and post-exercise recovery in juvenile spangled

academic.oup.com

There plenty of publications that prove otherwise. Please do not misinform newbies with information that will eventually lead to the demise of their aquarium and frustration of the user.

It is MUCH safer to change water than to assume everything is under control and not causing any long-term harm to the liverstock.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

How do you make that claim that 130mg/L is not causing any harm? Based on what?

Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates - PubMed

Published data on nitrate (NO3-) toxicity to freshwater and marine animals are reviewed. New data on nitrate toxicity to the freshwater invertebrates Eulimnogammarus toletanus, Echinogammarus echinosetosus and Hydropsyche exocellata are also presented. The main toxic action of nitrate is due to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Simultaneous exposure to nitrate and low pH reduces the blood oxygen-carrying capacity and functional performance of a freshwater fish

Exposure to elevated nitrate and acidic pH impaired oxygen uptake and reduced swimming performance, growth and post-exercise recovery in juvenile spangled

academic.oup.com

There plenty of publications that prove otherwise. Please do not misinform newbies with information that will eventually lead to the demise of their aquarium and frustration of the user.

It is MUCH safer to change water than to assume everything is under control and not causing any long-term harm to the liverstock.

I am serious that I can do a 50% dilution and it reads that high. It's been that way for a long time. It does make me skeptical because all of our fresh tanks run high and we haven't had a problem. We have noticed that our systems seem to require heavy airation, but that tank in particular has been that way since the 4th month it was up. There are guppies that reproduce in it and a few different species of snail. We also have small yellow shrimps that have reproduced in immeasurably high nitrates in a small 5 gallon tank. It is API, being used for our fresh, but the amount of feeding vs nutrient export it does add up.

Edit: might be worth mentioning our tap has very high carbante hardness, and early on we would use a lot of PH down to no affect. There are certain plants we can't keep due to this and most of our shrimps do not reproduce in those conditions. We have another tank for those that are very low bioload and do get regular changes and CO2