Are We Really Chasing Nitrogen or Is Phosphorus the Key?

[areefer01]

The average reefer is still convinced phosphate is a villain

Indoctrination at warp level 10.

 

[rtparty]

Indoctrination at warp level 10.

It is crazy how hard the hobby pushed to eliminate PO4 and still does. After seeing the Oceamo research on what elements are added/removed by GFO and other medias, I will never use or recommend any of them at this point

 

[6272862829]

Hi @.AcroKiller.
I personally feel phosphorus is more important than nitrogen in my mixed reef tank.
Maybe @Hans-Werner can help correct anything I may say wrongly.

About 5 years ago, I dosed nitrate in hope of getting better sps colors. In my experience, it made no appreciable difference in color or growth when I had 7 to 15ppm NO3 versus 0 ppm NO3.

Then about 1.5 years ago, I started to dose Ammonium bicarbonate. Initially I would have 0 ppm NO3 and slowly dosed Ammonium Bicarbonate daily until I can see my NO3 go up to about 3ppm.
I think by dosing this way, when I saw my NO3 reach up to a measurable number, it would mean my mixed reef system can not take up additional ammonium/ Nitrogen and now NO3 is the resultant biproduct. Again, I did not see better colors. I did have to clean my glass more frequently when my Nitrogen levels go up though. I honestly cannot say anything about improved growth from dosing ammonium as I never had fast growing corals to begin with. I felt I had good colors even without dosing ammonium, I therefore stopped dosing it for about 1 year now.

After Salem Clemens talked about dosing urea as an organic source of nitrogen, I went down the rabbit hole again. Now I am dosing 75% urea and 25% ammonium bicarbonate. I have been dosing this for daily for 2 weeks now. So far I still have 0ppm NO3 reading on my Hanna meter. I once again have to clean my glass more frequently, but one noticeable change may not be all too positive. My sps colors appeared to be more brown...
It is still too early to say anything positive or negative with urea dosing for nitrogen, but wanted to give you my experience thus far.

As far as phosphorus goes, my phosphate level is about 0.05 currently. I do carbon dose to keep my PO4 levels under 0.1. If I do not carbon dose, my PO4 levels will go above 0.3ppm. I find carbon dosing helps convert measurable inorganic phosphate to unmeasurable organic phosphate. I think this just means I still have the same amount of phosphorus, but corals uptake organic phosphate to grow.

Anyone, please correct or share your experience regarding what I just written. Thanks

I expect that more phosphate, no N dosing and ignoring nitrate more likely would bring you closer to your goals (better colors and growth).

Exactly what I have been experiencing. That brings me to a question for you. Phos feed, is this a phosphorous additive.

 

[Troylee]

Who cares what these say! I only tested cause I’m bored! I have over 100 different sticks in my tank and I pay attention to them! They’re all happy! That’s .3 p04 if you don’t wanna do the math lol.. the grow extremely well on either end of the scale… I ran 1-3 n03 and .001-.01 p04 and I didn’t see any difference to these numbers today! Leave the tank alone and it will always balance out! Let nature do its thang!

 

[areefer01]

Who cares what these say! I only tested cause I’m bored! I have over 100 different sticks in my tank and I pay attention to them! They’re all happy! That’s .3 p04 if you don’t wanna do the math lol.. the grow extremely well on either end of the scale… I ran 1-3 n03 and .001-.01 p04 and I didn’t see any difference to these numbers today! Leave the tank alone and it will always balance out! Let nature do its thang!

Here are my numbers over the years.

 

[CHSUB]

Who cares what these say! I only tested cause I’m bored! I have over 100 different sticks in my tank and I pay attention to them! They’re all happy! That’s .3 p04 if you don’t wanna do the math lol.. the grow extremely well on either end of the scale… I ran 1-3 n03 and .001-.01 p04 and I didn’t see any difference to these numbers today! Leave the tank alone and it will always balance out! Let nature do its thang!

My experience with high po4 >.5 is very slow stone coral growth and more brownish color.

 

[Troylee]

My experience with high po4 >.5 is very slow stone coral growth and more brownish color.

My colors are perfect! That’s all lighting if you ask me lol.. I’ve ran a full blown zeovit tank with ulns that gives you pale colors I will say that “but they don’t change or morph” but I prefer the dark rich colors on my acros.. the only time I’ve experienced different colors with nutrients was zeo.. if you’re not flirting with death I mean 0’s across the board the colors pretty much stay the same. Photoshop ruined this hobby many,many years ago! There is some stunners out there don’t get me wrong but the colors will never be spot on to what you see online.. back in the day We didn’t use solid blue and uv lighting with an orange lens or glasses to look at our tanks lol… run full spectrum!

 

[areefer01]

My experience with high po4 >.5 is very slow stone coral growth and more brownish color.

Color in this hobby is also misleading in my opinion. Reef crest this past December.

 

[CHSUB]

My tank from 1999 to 2005 with .5 ppm po4 looked great for the day. However, now with similar k lighting color and growth of stone corals are noticeable better with very low po4. I’m convinced low po4 is desirable…
2003 slower growth, more brownish stonies…

 

[areefer01]

My colors are perfect! That’s all lighting if you ask me lol.. I’ve ran a full blown zeovit tank with ulns that gives you pale colors I will say that “but they change or morph” but I prefer the dark rich colors on my acros.. the only time I’ve experienced different colors with nutrients was zeo.. if you’re not flirting with death I mean 0’s across the board the colors pretty much stay the same. Photoshop ruined this hobby many,many years ago! There is some stunners out there don’t get me wrong but the colors will never be spot on to what you see online.. back in the day We didn’t use solid blue and uv lighting with an orange lens or glasses to look at our tanks lol… run full spectrum!

Must love BC corals. Here is one of my larger Acropora's that is now about 23" wide - BC Efflo 2.0. Don't tell it that high phosphates are bad.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If it is present and does not drop to zero, the organisms should be able to draw on it if they need it.
Or am I making a mistake in my thinking?

The latter.

Below a certain nonzero point, it becomes progressively harder to take them up even if there.

As an overly simplistic analogy, imagine going fishing. Just because there is a fish or two in the lake does not mean you are as likely to catch dinner as if there are hundreds of them.

 

[Troylee]

The latter.

Below a certain nonzero point, it becomes progressively harder to take them up even if there.

As an overly simplistic analogy, imagine going fishing. Just because there is a fish or two in the lake does not mean you are as likely to catch dinner as if there are hundreds of them.

Not to mention the +\- error of the test kits we have.

 

[6272862829]

Hi @.AcroKiller.
I personally feel phosphorus is more important than nitrogen in my mixed reef tank.
Maybe @Hans-Werner can help correct anything I may say wrongly.

About 5 years ago, I dosed nitrate in hope of getting better sps colors. In my experience, it made no appreciable difference in color or growth when I had 7 to 15ppm NO3 versus 0 ppm NO3.

Then about 1.5 years ago, I started to dose Ammonium bicarbonate. Initially I would have 0 ppm NO3 and slowly dosed Ammonium Bicarbonate daily until I can see my NO3 go up to about 3ppm.
I think by dosing this way, when I saw my NO3 reach up to a measurable number, it would mean my mixed reef system can not take up additional ammonium/ Nitrogen and now NO3 is the resultant biproduct. Again, I did not see better colors. I did have to clean my glass more frequently when my Nitrogen levels go up though. I honestly cannot say anything about improved growth from dosing ammonium as I never had fast growing corals to begin with. I felt I had good colors even without dosing ammonium, I therefore stopped dosing it for about 1 year now.

After Salem Clemens talked about dosing urea as an organic source of nitrogen, I went down the rabbit hole again. Now I am dosing 75% urea and 25% ammonium bicarbonate. I have been dosing this for daily for 2 weeks now. So far I still have 0ppm NO3 reading on my Hanna meter. I once again have to clean my glass more frequently, but one noticeable change may not be all too positive. My sps colors appeared to be more brown...
It is still too early to say anything positive or negative with urea dosing for nitrogen, but wanted to give you my experience thus far.

As far as phosphorus goes, my phosphate level is about 0.05 currently. I do carbon dose to keep my PO4 levels under 0.1. If I do not carbon dose, my PO4 levels will go above 0.3ppm. I find carbon dosing helps convert measurable inorganic phosphate to unmeasurable organic phosphate. I think this just means I still have the same amount of phosphorus, but corals uptake organic phosphate to grow.

Anyone, please correct or share your experience regarding what I just written. Thanks

I expect that more phosphate, no N dosing and ignoring nitrate more likely would bring you closer to your goals (better colors and growth).

Btw @Hans-Werner i just finish reading your article about this on coral magazine. Great read.

 

[rtparty]

I will add an observation I made on my old 250 regarding nitrogen/ammonia dosing.

I started to see dinos on my sandbed. Just small little brown clumps. I hadn't tested nitrate in a minute so I pulled out the Hanna checker and 0. This actually shocked me because I couldn't get nitrates below like 40ppm in this system for a LONG time. I stopped testing because I knew it was always high.

So I started dosing ammonia according to Randy's recipe and thread. I even made posts about this in that thread. Within a couple days the dinos "became" cyano. The cyano could have just covered them up but it was consistent in every spot in the tank. As I raised NO3 to roughly 10ppm, all the sand dwelling dinos became cyano instead.

I don't make any claims but it was a very interesting observation. So much so that when I started my "Proof of Concept" aquarium, ammonia dosing was critical/mandatory and has remained in place for the last 9+ months. I have never seen dinos in that system. I also dose PO4 on the POC system FWIW

 

[reefluvrr]

I expect that more phosphate, no N dosing and ignoring nitrate more likely would bring you closer to your goals (better colors and growth).

Is there a ratio you find for inorganic phosphate to organic phosphate you find yields better color/growth?

 

[RobertK]

Btw @Hans-Werner i just finish reading your article about this on coral magazine. Great read.

Can you provide a link to this article?

 

[6272862829]

I expect that more phosphate, no N dosing and ignoring nitrate more likely would bring you closer to your goals (better colors and growth).

Is there a ratio you find for inorganic phosphate to organic phosphate you find yields better color/growth?

Check this presentation out. This is a great one. Listen to what he has to say about corals been able to be ok with nitrogen limited environment but not so much with phosphorous limitations.

 

[6272862829]

Btw @Hans-Werner i just finish reading your article about this on coral magazine. Great read.

Can you provide a link to this article?

It’s the latest issue of the coral magazine.

 

[areefer01]

Can you provide a link to this article?

It is in the July/August issue of Coral Magazine. If you are a subscriber you can access it on-line. Title: Advanced Aquatics: Phosphate—a nutrient with diverse effects by Hans-Werner Balling

 

[areefer01]

It’s the latest issue of the coral magazine.

You beat me to it.