Ati icp test results in. IMO don’t look so bad so why are most my corals deflated not happy starting to show skeleton.

[HuduVudu]

BRS Pharma Balling Method Bulk Total Package

Easily maintain calcium, alkalinity, trace elements, & magnesium in your reef! The BRS Pharma Hybrid Balling Method is the answer for implementing trace elements alongside the BRS two part you know and love. Easily make single or multiple gallons of each solution at a time with the bulk package...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

So I started using this. I think it’s different then you are thinking. Directions for this has you add 2 of the 3 tropic products to your brs alk and cal liquid mixture and then the 3rd is made to liquid and doses separate.

This is what I am thinking.

Balling Components | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin.com

It is funny BRS uses the trace from Tropic Marin. I am not sure why BRS seperated out the magnesium ... whatever. You just need to follow the instructions exactly. It is important because you are trying to equalize the sodium and chloride with themselves and also with the trace elements.

wantes this to be easy as possible was awesome to be adding minerals and not having to set up more dosers for it.

As far as it goes it is easy, but you will be dosing it looks like 4 different things with the BRS stuff. This stuff is tricky because you have to ensure that you are dosing correctly and there is a narrow window to go through. It is imperative that your doser doesn't drift and that you constantly ensure calibration on all of the heads using dosing. This is where it gets hard and fussy.

I thought that is nutrients and minerals are are proper levels then you did not have to do water changes at all or very little?

Ummmm no. Water changes re-balance the chemical balance of your tank and they are absolutely necessary when you are doing 2 part dosing derivatives. Even Balling you should water change because you can't be 100% sure that you are getting it right. If you can get it right with Balling and you know it then all you need to do is lower the specific gravity which can be done by removing water from the tank and replacing it with RO.

 

[HuduVudu]

I ran carbon 24/7 replaced every month for a year straight up till 3 days ago so I know that won’t help.

Don't do this. I realize you quit, that is good. Stay quit, because this removes things that you might want in trace elements. Plus with the possibility of HLLE, why risk it.

Also did you see my full tank picture above? What is your thoughts on my issue being chemical warfare ?

Unlikely, you have skimmer and as long as you are running it constantly it will pull most of the results of chemical combat out. If it was chemical warfare it would be more localised.

 

[CaptainCooke]

I have a thought.... are you filtering out chloramines? I live in DC and found out the hard way that twice a year the city uses chloramine to flush the tap water lines in place of chlorine to kill all the bacteria that the chlorine doesn’t get. My RODI filter didn’t have a great carbon block and these chloramines tore right through it. The water still showed up as zero TDS and this didn’t show up on an IPC test. Lost a few acros and took me a moment to figure out what was going on.

 

[SMSREEF]

I think that you are not dealing with your mineralization correctly. I also think that you are not understanding what you are dosing.

First off base understanding when you dose something, you are actually dosing two things. The thing that you are dosing and then the oppositely charged complement. So if you are dosing nitrate you are also adding sodium. I think you may get the two part, but just know that sodium has a balance too. That is perhaps why you went to Balling. When I look for things to dose I like to choose things I can measure and that I know are tolerated if the balance changes. Sodium is such an unknown I avoid it like the plague. I use calcium nitrate to dose nitrates.

Saltwater has Much Much Much more sodium than calcium or potassium. If you want to dose nitrate, if you do it with sodium, it’s barely adding anything compared to the sodium amount in the water. If you do it with calcium or potassium you are changing those element levels more (but still not much). This is why a lot of reefers dose sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate.

ELEMENT​	MOLECULAR WEIGHT​	PPM IN SEAWATER​	MOLAR CONCENTRATION​
Chloride	35.4	18980	0.536158
Sodium	23	10561	0.459174
Magnesium	24.3	1272	0.052346
Sulfur	32	884	0.027625
Calcium	40	400	0.01
Potassium	39.1	380	0.009719
Bromine	79.9	65	0.000814

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

Unlikely, you have skimmer and as long as you are running it constantly it will pull most of the results of chemical combat out. If it was chemical warfare it would be more localised.

With softie chemical warfare it's not a localised thing it's in the water. If he has a tank,sump and frag tank connected what does he have in the frag tank as he said that is worse than the main tank is the stuff in there getting into the main tank.

 

[Spieg]

Everybody loves a mixed reef, but they're considerably more challenging than a more focused tank. Some corals can be just difficult in a particular tank (I've always had a problem keeping Zoas in my tank, so I don't buy those anymore). Maybe decide what corals seem to do the best in your tank and build on that (SPS, LPS, softies, etc...)?

 

[HuduVudu]

Saltwater has Much Much Much more sodium than calcium or potassium. If you want to dose nitrate, if you do it with sodium, it’s barely adding anything compared to the sodium amount in the water. If you do it with calcium or potassium you are changing those element levels more (but still not much). This is why a lot of reefers dose sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate.

ELEMENT​	MOLECULAR WEIGHT​	PPM IN SEAWATER​	MOLAR CONCENTRATION​
Chloride	35.4	18980	0.536158
Sodium	23	10561	0.459174
Magnesium	24.3	1272	0.052346
Sulfur	32	884	0.027625
Calcium	40	400	0.01
Potassium	39.1	380	0.009719
Bromine	79.9	65	0.000814

Calcium gets used Sodium doesn't. Calcium can be easily tested for sodium can not. The effects of changes in the sodium chloride balance aren't known. The effects of calcium and carbonate are more understood. The calcium imbalance is forgiving.

I am painfully aware of the chart above. I get it, but many do not, especially the new and novice reefers. No one posts parameters that include sodium, or chloride, even though they play an important role in our aquariums. Just because the percentage change using sodium or chloride is small doesn't mean it doesn't add up over time. Plus where is the threshhold for when you have gone to far and what are the effects? Also many reefers do not like water changes and avoid them, because they are a lot of work (myself included). Without water changes there is no way to correct the sodium chloride imbalances. I will stick to calcium based solutions and recommend them to all who ask.

 

[HuduVudu]

With softie chemical warfare it's not a localised thing it's in the water.

And the skimmer will remove it.

 

[SMSREEF]

Calcium gets used Sodium doesn't. Calcium can be easily tested for sodium can not. The effects of changes in the sodium chloride balance aren't known. The effects of calcium and carbonate are more understood. The calcium imbalance is documented forgiving.

I am painfully aware of the chart above. I get it, but many do not, especially the new and novice reefers. No one posts parameters that include sodium, or chloride, even though they play an important role in our aquariums. Just because the percentage change using sodium or chloride is small doesn't mean it doesn't add up over time. Plus where is the threshhold for when you have gone to far and what are the effects? Also many reefers do not like water changes and avoid them, because they are a lot of work (myself included). Without water changes there is no way to correct the sodium chloride imbalances. I will stick to calcium based solutions and recommend them to all who ask.

Probably best for you to read one of Randy’s posts on the subject

Need help increasing Nitrates in one tank and phosphates in another

So I am in need of a chemical which will increase nitrate in my 200gal system reef. The po4 is around .12ppm and I want to raise my no3 from 2.5 to 5ppm. I removed a large fish and have not put more fish in to take its place. I have red stump remover/potassium Nitrate is the way to go but...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[HuduVudu]

Probably best for you to read one of Randy’s posts on the subject

Need help increasing Nitrates in one tank and phosphates in another

So I am in need of a chemical which will increase nitrate in my 200gal system reef. The po4 is around .12ppm and I want to raise my no3 from 2.5 to 5ppm. I removed a large fish and have not put more fish in to take its place. I have red stump remover/potassium Nitrate is the way to go but...

www.reef2reef.com

Arghhhh puhhhlese.

I have alread stated I get the arguments around this subject I am very familar with them, and I also stated that it was a small movement. So rubbing my nose in it isn't really a nice thing to do, and just because Randy says it is so doesn't mean it is good for your situation. It just means that is what Randy thinks based on his point of view.

Since I haven't been clear ...
What are the effects of a sodium imbalance in the aquarium?
At what value does this effect show itself?
When it happens what are the solutions to correct it?

You can change something by 1% a month and that may not seem like much but if you don't do anything to re-balance it then in a year it is 12% and in 2 years it's 24%. Even if it is .1% then in two years it is 2.4% does that cause problems? I am just not interested in finding out when there are other solutions available, and I will continue to suggest as such.

 

[SMSREEF]

Nonsense. The sodium is perfectly fine.

I am just not interested in finding out when there are other solutions available, and I will continue to suggest as such.

This is obvious. But you should be careful when you accuse others like the OP of doing something harmful to their tank when you have no evidence, nor any interest in finding it.

 

[HuduVudu]

This is obvious. But you should be careful when you accuse others like the OP of doing something harmful to their tank when you have no evidence, nor any interest in finding it.

I have accused no one and I don't understand why you are attacking me for my opinion. I mean really what are you defending here. I am trying to help the OP with their tank. Based on my experience I have formulated a specific plan for him to follow. He is an adult and can make his own decisions on whether or not he wants to follow my plan or not, or maybe even pieces of it. I have had the problem he has and I have corrected it. If you have a different opinion for what should be done then you are more than free to post it. You can delineate your different ideology in your post and then the OP as an adult can accept or deny all or pieces of your opinion. Attacking me is childish.

Clearly the OP is doing something harmful to his tank. When our tanks don't do well it is because we are doing something harmful. We need to figure out what and correct it, there is no shame in that! I can't understand why you would think that is shameful to make mistakes, and asking for help in correcting them. This seems pretty isolating to me.

I don't know where the quote you got from Randy is from so I can't even speak to it.

I do have evidence and I solicted that evidence by asking questions. That also means that I have interest in finding it. If you are refering to the sodium chloride balance I have investigated it on and off and have found nothing. Judging by your lack of posts on the questions that I asked you either didn't bother to look or there is still nothing.

I am still unclear why you are assuming that I am trying to hurt the OP here. Why would you think that? I am not posting because this some sort of contest to prove who has the bigger head, I am posting because I think that I can help.

This conversation is de-railing the post and I am not going to post in this direction any more. If you have a solution for the OP then post it and be done.

 

[SMSREEF]

I have accused no one and I don't understand why you are attacking me for my opinion. I mean really what are you defending here. I am trying to help the OP with their tank. Based on my experience I have formulated a specific plan for him to follow. He is an adult and can make his own decisions on whether or not he wants to follow my plan or not, or maybe even pieces of it. I have had the problem he has and I have corrected it. If you have a different opinion for what should be done then you are more than free to post it. You can delineate your different ideology in your post and then the OP as an adult can accept or deny all or pieces of your opinion. Attacking me is childish.

Clearly the OP is doing something harmful to his tank. When our tanks don't do well it is because we are doing something harmful. We need to figure out what and correct it, there is no shame in that! I can't understand why you would think that is shameful to make mistakes, and asking for help in correcting them. This seems pretty isolating to me.

I don't know where the quote you got from Randy is from so I can't even speak to it.

I do have evidence and I solicted that evidence by asking questions. That also means that I have interest in finding it. If you are refering to the sodium chloride balance I have investigated it on and off and have found nothing. Judging by your lack of posts on the questions that I asked you either didn't bother to look or there is still nothing.

I am still unclear why you are assuming that I am trying to hurt the OP here. Why would you think that? I am not posting because this some sort of contest to prove who has the bigger head, I am posting because I think that I can help.

This conversation is de-railing the post and I am not going to post in this direction any more. If you have a solution for the OP then post it and be done.

For the record, I do not agree with you that the OP is doing anything harmful to the tank.
My view is that sometimes "Stuff" just happens in tanks. It may be due to us not doing something, adding a new coral, hitchhiker, power outage, rusting part, nutrient deficiency, element deficiency, heavy metals, low flow, microbial imbalance, etc. We do the best we can to figure it out and correct it. Never any shame in that

I do think you had another point that is valid so I probably should have said that in regards to chemical warfare. Without me saying that, I can see how you may take my posts as an attack, but they are not meant that way.

The thing that I had issue with was this:

I also think that you are not understanding what you are dosing.

Which maybe I am reading incorrectly or it was typed incorrectly, who knows because these posts often read very differently than intended.

I just think going down a road of sodium nitrate being the issue is incorrect, and other reefers may read what you are writing and think they should no longer use the sodium nitrate they have.

With the OPs ICP test results below. Let's be done with this, because sodium is clearly not the issue with the corals.

 

[HuduVudu]

I just think going down a road of sodium nitrate being the issue is incorrect, and other reefers may read what you are writing and think they should no longer use the sodium nitrate they have.

With the OPs ICP test results below. Let's be done with this, because sodium is clearly not the issue with the corals.

It isn't just the sodium nitrate it is the sodium bicarbonate and the calcium chloride. It isn't just sodium. It is the sodium balance.

You have shown me the hard numbers for sodium and chloride ... kewl.

Are the measures of each of these individual elements compared to a standard e.g. chloride is supposed to measured at 19,000 and his has a difference of x. It seems yes, that is the way that it is being measured. What about the difference between the sodium and the chloride, what about the difference between sodium and any other of the elements? People get so lost in the numbers that they are unwilling to see anything other than a hard number and make a binary decision. Also how does ICP determine that this a "good" number, what is their methodology? I don't accept numbers at face value, because numbers are representitive of a thinking I want to know what the number is in context of the information the user of that number is relaying. ICP tests can be good and they can be helpful, but the numbers need to be taken in context, or IMO as a whole.

Once again, if you think that there is nothing wrong with the OPs tank then state as such. I have made my assesment, and I stand by it.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Just want to say that I wouldn't go crazy looking for source of tin (unless it goes higher on your next test). 6.4 shouldn't bother anything.

Did you say your PAR is only 40? That seems really low. Just wondering if your main problem is simply not enough light.

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

And the skimmer will remove it.

The skimmer is in the basement and the corals release the toxins in the tank upstairs I assume he doesn't have a really high turn over through the sump. so my point being the toxins are in the tank and eventually get to the sump then skimmer but not all water goes through it, it by passes it and some is pumped back to the tank again. I was only speculating that toxins could be an issue.

 

[HuduVudu]

I assume he doesn't have a really high turn over

Might be a good idea to ask then there doesn't need to be assumptions.

so my point being the toxins are in the tank and eventually get to the sump then skimmer but not all water goes through it, it by passes it and some is pumped back to the tank again. I was only speculating that toxins could be an issue.

This is valid, and if the flow through the sump and vicariously the skimmer is low then this could indeed be an issue. I don't think it is likely but I don't have all of the information either.

I think we are all speculating on this. We don't have all of the information. I would hope that all of the different angles of speculation and any deriavites found after the fact would help the OP find the solution that he is looking for.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Might be a good idea to ask then there doesn't need to be assumptions.


This is valid, and if the flow through the sump and vicariously the skimmer is low then this could indeed be an issue. I don't think it is likely but I don't have all of the information either.

I think we are all speculating on this. We don't have all of the information. I would hope that all of the different angles of speculation and any deriavites found after the fact would help the OP find the solution that he is looking for.

Hi sorry long day at work.
just read this post gunna catch up with everything soon here .
Just want to post about sump and skimmer turn around. I’d say I have great flow 400 gph threw display actually measured with bucket. And very large aggressive skimmer that pulls out very dark skimmate

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Corals are looking worse today
4th picture dead spot on left may be from torch next to it

 

[((FORDTECH))]

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