Automation and controller

[BeanAnimal]

They all have their pros/cons

I am not a fan of the Neptune stuff - I (sadly) think that they spend time and money fiddling with the ( rather ugly and NON modular) artistic aspects that would be better spent on reliability and better materials and design. Their ecosystem feels clunky and random with physical properties that scream toy. The hard tie and almost 100% reliance on their "cloud" is a hard stop. Also not a fan of the group of companies and business direction over the last 5+ years.

I don't know a lot about Hydros, nice modular idea but too many overlapping products and models for me to spend more than 2 minutes trying to sort out the mess. I was not clear on what (if anything) had local control and does not rely on the "cloud". I

I went with GHL based on several factors. The build quality, modularity and feature set are favorable. The programming interface is decent and available from a local connection (not reliant on the internet) For those who think it is too complicated, it has to be that way to expose the underlying feature set and power. It is extremely flexible. I am not a fan of their semi-attached cloud service. The system does not rely on the cloud for programing or operation, but most of the relevant dashboard functions (reporting) are round-tripped through their cloud and not served from the controller itself. I think this is a rather poor design decision and their cloud is painfully slow, making the entire ecosystem frustrating from a "reporting" standpoint, even if the system itself is pretty rock solid.

 

[Trizz]

i like the that Hydros offers the new Kraken, which will remove about 10 power bricks and is cable of full battery backup for the whole tank no limit on battery size, also the cables for the gyre's pumps and so forth. easy interface and programming all around win and i do have a new full apex dose and all will be selling it soon just moved to a new house and getting ready to do a v2 s2100 cade with side cabinets with the new Hydros system and pump controllers.

 

[Projects with Sam]

i like the that Hydros offers the new Kraken, which will remove about 10 power bricks and is cable of full battery backup for the whole tank no limit on battery size, also the cables for the gyre's pumps and so forth. easy interface and programming all around win and i do have a new full apex dose and all will be selling it soon just moved to a new house and getting ready to do a v2 s2100 cade with side cabinets with the new Hydros system and pump controllers.

killer name too

 

[StatelineReefer]

killer name too

Hear that Coralvue?

 

[Trizz]

Hear that Coralvue?

and also i think this is the only unit on the market that is ETL-ul sert

HYDROS Kraken 24V Power Center

The Kraken introduces a new concept in aquarium controllers and provides high-power 24V DC switched outputs and a large heavy-duty power supply. This allows “power bricks” and “wall warts” to be removed from aquarium systems, significantly reducing wire clutter. *Cables required; sold separately.

www.coralvue.com

 

[Trizz]

i like the that Hydros offers the new Kraken, which will remove about 10 power bricks and is cable of full battery backup for the whole tank no limit on battery size, also the cables for the gyre's pumps and so forth. easy interface and programming all around win and i do have a new full apex dose and all will be selling it soon just moved to a new house and getting ready to do a v2 s2100 cade with side cabinets with the new Hydros system and pump controllers.

HYDROS Kraken 24V Power Center

The Kraken introduces a new concept in aquarium controllers and provides high-power 24V DC switched outputs and a large heavy-duty power supply. This allows “power bricks” and “wall warts” to be removed from aquarium systems, significantly reducing wire clutter. *Cables required; sold separately.

www.coralvue.com

 

[OlafsReef]

Have Apex and Hydros and Apex is miles ahead of hydros be it the UI, the products or the pricing.

If you want to risk burning your house down then a unmodified hydros X8 is the way to go..... :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing::rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

That's a wild claim given the numerous and even very recent threads where eb8s caught fire... Granted, longer history means more time for accidents that do happen in our hobby.

What modifications do you suggest for peoples X8? That's seems pretty important to share if everyone's house is about to go up I'm flames.

 

[cwerner]

That's a wild claim given the numerous and even very recent threads where eb8s caught fire... Granted, longer history means more time for accidents that do happen in our hobby.

What modifications do you suggest for peoples X8? That's seems pretty important to share if everyone's house is about to go up I'm flames.

If you look at his post history about 80% of it is simple Hydros bashing including resurrecting old threads. He's got an agenda and has resurrected old threads to do it.

 

[Projects with Sam]

If you look at his post history about 80% of it is simple Hydros bashing including resurrecting old threads. He's got an agenda and has resurrected old threads to do it.

Thanks!
Ignored him. No place for that here.

 

[n2585722]

That's a wild claim given the numerous and even very recent threads where eb8s caught fire... Granted, longer history means more time for accidents that do happen in our hobby.

What modifications do you suggest for peoples X8? That's seems pretty important to share if everyone's house is about to go up I'm flames.

I think he got the controller wrong since there is no X8 controller. There is an XP8 controller. It has 8 AC outlets. I have one and have had no issues with it. I have had it apart and do not see any issues with the build. I work on consumer electronics. So I am not sure where the fire thing is coming from.

 

[Redemptioner]

I see Don's special group have joined the thread, they are upset they don't have any control over public forums unlike the other places they lurk.

Funny seeing the same "people" jump into every thread at any mention of hydros trying to stamp on anyone who brings up the problems with Hydros, hopefully Don will keep rewarding them.

The XP8, yes not the X8 (the kind of of silly things they like to raise) is indeed a serious fire risk. The "engineers" at CV think it is fine to tin mains power leads and screw them into terminals so they can melt and catch fire at some stage in the future. This fails basic electrical safety 101 and means they are definitely not passing CE or any other electrical standard in most western countries including the USA. It is one thing for an electrical component to fail and cause an issue, it is completely next level to tin a mains cable end carrying current and jam it into a terminal block.

I called it a modification, but really it is just removing the ignorance from the mains power supply cable. If you are servicing "consumer electronics" and you don't pick up on this issue when you first open the case then you probably not qualified to be doing the work you claim....

 

[BeanAnimal]

Tinned conductors are far more corrosion resistant than bare copper. Should they be terminated under screw terminals? In theory the extreme thermal cycling could create a degraded connection that would in-turn cause further heat and more intense thermal cycling…. But wait, we are talking about relatively low currents for any reasonable wire size and a thermally uninsulated connection. Where is this initial extreme heat coming from? If we are thermal cycling the tin/copper connection enough to loosen a screw terminal and start an arcing fire…. Something else is wrong.

Moreover, countless mains connections are terminated via SOLDER directly on PCBs in devices, many of which operate in the 15A-20A range. If we are melting solder, or generating enough heat to delaminate or char a PCB… something else is wrong.

Are these ‘screw terminals’ bare screws on barrier blocks or do they have pressure plates or washers?

Are you a UL, CE or CSA listing engineer or certification tester or expert? Are you an electrical Engineer? Can you cite the relevant UL, CE or CSA guidelines that would govern the approval or disqualification of these “dangerous” connections? Not being flippant here at all - honestly wonder what credentials or knowledge you bring to bear with your observations. I have spent some time in the past reviewing said requirements out of curiosity and have a lifetime of electrical and electronics design and experience, but am by no means well versed or an expert in any of the mentioned certifications.

Do you have photos of these “dangerous” connections?

How many ‘fires’ or near-miss or catastrophic failures have you documented that are unequivocally the result of a tinned wire to screw terminal failure?

Do you know what it costs to get (and maintain) even a simple device listed under one (let alone all three) of those bodies? Do you realize the number of ‘listed’ devices that are not actually listed or use long expired listings or listings approved prior to significant design changes or parts substitutions, etc?

I have never looked inside a Hydros and don’t really care. I am not defending them, but at the same time sense a bit of over-the-top rhetoric. The insults directed toward other responders don’t help.

 

[n2585722]

Tinned conductors are far more corrosion resistant than bare copper. Should they be terminated under screw terminals? In theory the extreme thermal cycling could create a degraded connection that would in-turn cause further heat and more intense thermal cycling…. But wait, we are talking about relatively low currents for any reasonable wire size and a thermally uninsulated connection. Where is this initial extreme heat coming from? If we are thermal cycling the tin/copper connection enough to loosen a screw terminal and start an arcing fire…. Something else is wrong.

Moreover, countless mains connections are terminated via SOLDER directly on PCBs in devices, many of which operate in the 15A-20A range. If we are melting solder, or generating enough heat to delaminate or char a PCB… something else is wrong.

Are these ‘screw terminals’ bare screws on barrier blocks or do they have pressure plates or washers?

Are you a UL, CE or CSA listing engineer or certification tester or expert? Are you an electrical Engineer? Can you cite the relevant UL, CE or CSA guidelines that would govern the approval or disqualification of these “dangerous” connections? Not being flippant here at all - honestly wonder what credentials or knowledge you bring to bear with your observations. I have spent some time in the past reviewing said requirements out of curiosity and have a lifetime of electrical and electronics design and experience, but am by no means well versed or an expert in any of the mentioned certifications.

Do you have photos of these “dangerous” connections?

How many ‘fires’ or near-miss or catastrophic failures have you documented that are unequivocally the result of a tinned wire to screw terminal failure?

Do you know what it costs to get (and maintain) even a simple device listed under one (let alone all three) of those bodies? Do you realize the number of ‘listed’ devices that are not actually listed or use long expired listings or listings approved prior to significant design changes or parts substitutions, etc?

I have never looked inside a Hydros and don’t really care. I am not defending them, but at the same time sense a bit of over-the-top rhetoric. The insults directed toward other responders don’t help.

I just pulled apart one I have used over a year and the connections in question are still pristine. The tinned wire is still shinny and shows no signs of overheating. I would be more worried with one that was not tinned that a strand may not get into the connector and touch a strand from another wire with the same issue than the wire coming loose from the connector. At least with them tinned that is not likely to happen.

 

[Redemptioner]

Tinned conductors are far more corrosion resistant than bare copper. Should they be terminated under screw terminals? In theory the extreme thermal cycling could create a degraded connection that would in-turn cause further heat and more intense thermal cycling…. But wait, we are talking about relatively low currents for any reasonable wire size and a thermally uninsulated connection. Where is this initial extreme heat coming from? If we are thermal cycling the tin/copper connection enough to loosen a screw terminal and start an arcing fire…. Something else is wrong.

Moreover, countless mains connections are terminated via SOLDER directly on PCBs in devices, many of which operate in the 15A-20A range. If we are melting solder, or generating enough heat to delaminate or char a PCB… something else is wrong.

Are these ‘screw terminals’ bare screws on barrier blocks or do they have pressure plates or washers?

Are you a UL, CE or CSA listing engineer or certification tester or expert? Are you an electrical Engineer? Can you cite the relevant UL, CE or CSA guidelines that would govern the approval or disqualification of these “dangerous” connections? Not being flippant here at all - honestly wonder what credentials or knowledge you bring to bear with your observations. I have spent some time in the past reviewing said requirements out of curiosity and have a lifetime of electrical and electronics design and experience, but am by no means well versed or an expert in any of the mentioned certifications.

Do you have photos of these “dangerous” connections?

How many ‘fires’ or near-miss or catastrophic failures have you documented that are unequivocally the result of a tinned wire to screw terminal failure?

Do you know what it costs to get (and maintain) even a simple device listed under one (let alone all three) of those bodies? Do you realize the number of ‘listed’ devices that are not actually listed or use long expired listings or listings approved prior to significant design changes or parts substitutions, etc?

I have never looked inside a Hydros and don’t really care. I am not defending them, but at the same time sense a bit of over-the-top rhetoric. The insults directed toward other responders don’t help.

Hey, you tend to get short when you get the same "responders" on every post that has a mention of hydros, and the same "responders" with undisclosed relationship with the company. You will find the same ones on just about every post that mentions hydros and generally attacking the person making the post if they are not singing hydros praises, that or trying to spruik a hydros product in a discussion about another products thread.

As to the technical side, yes I hold qualifications in this area hence why I called it out and also called out the "responder" who was trying to mislead others into thinking their experience in fiddling with consumer electronics negates the major fire risk because they had a look inside, made oh so worse by the comment about "wires coming loose"..... seriously :astonished-face:

The issue here is the tinning of the cable/wire end then putting it into a clamp terminal (be it a screw/ spring/ washer/ self latching or other terminal). Had they soldered the wires directly to the board or had they put crimp ends on (without solder) and jammed them into the terminals or just twisted the wires without solder and jammed them in it would be all hunky dory. But they did the worst possible thing and twisted the wires, tinned them and jammed them into a terminal block (and that is before you look at the rubbish quality cable used). This results in areas of high and low resistance at the terminal face (cable is compressed against terminals contact surface) combined with a soft, low melting point conductive material on a connection with potentially high current at mains AC voltage, this is your fire hazard. Putting aside the contact issues over time with the surface of solder, the pressure from the terminator on the conductor will reduce over time due to the solder slowly moving away from the compression it is under increasing the areas of high resistance causing the contact surface to heat up and have less contact with the cable causing a runaway and the eventual fire. Cable diameter and terminal block type makes little difference to this type of fire hazard, in fact very little current is actually needed to cause an issue either and is why it is a massive no no for any electrical engineer or electrician to do this (go ask your lecky if he would tin a wire before he jammed it into a terminal block).

I can provide pictures of these devices coming out with this fire hazard, but there is little point as there is no argument the main AC supply cable ends are tinned and have been put into screw down terminal blocks. There are also many documented stories of people burning their houses down with this type of issue (not from hydros), most recently in the 3D printing world were there have been a tremendous amount of incidents due to uneducated people playing with 3D printer kits and not knowing any better. And yes, fires caused specifically due to tinned cables in terminal blocks causing the fire and many of these being relatively low currents compared to what the XP8 is "rated" for (and certainly less current than most heaters draw). But hey, don't take my word on it, a basic google search will bring up plenty for you to read on the topic.

I absolutely understand what is required for many of the certifications, and this is for good reason. A company trying to deliberately mislead you into thinking a product has the same certification/ standard/ quality as something they don't actually hold is realistically fraud, I am not sure what else you call it. You can't say a golf cart is design to meet a 5 star safety rating unless it has been tested and passed this certification and I am pretty sure the the Ocean Gate sub was also designed to meet a dive depth of 3700 meters.....

So now you know the actual issue, you can read about how wrong it is to do this yourself, you can have a chat to a independent "qualified" electrician or electrical engineer about the standards and see this issue should be immediately corrected and there should be a notice/contact to existing customers to notify them of the significant risk so they can have this issue corrected (be it CV pays for a electrician to correct, or recall the product) before someone ultimately pays a very serious price. The fact we are having affiliates try to downplay/squash the issue is ludicrous, let alone the fact the company is well informed about the issue and continue to sell the product unchanged or correct the existing problem units. But hey, apparently raising major safety defects about hydros is "Hydros bashing".....

 

[BeanAnimal]

you get the same "responders" on every post that has a mention of hydros, and the same "responders" with undisclosed relationship with the company. You will find the same ones on just about every post that mentions hydros and generally attacking the person making the post if they are not singing hydros praises, that or trying to spruik a hydros product in a discussion about another products thread.

And oddly, from where I sit you appear to do exactly the same, just from the other side of the fence.

As to the technical side, yes I hold qualifications in this area hence why I called it out

Care to share what exactly those are?

The issue here is the tinning of the cable/wire end then putting it into a clamp terminal (be it a screw/ spring/ washer/ self latching or other terminal). But they did the worst possible thing and twisted the wires, tinned them and jammed them into a terminal block (and that is before you look at the rubbish quality cable used

You are repeating this point. I asked you to cite something other than your opinion. I don’t see the issue (as I explained in my prior post)

But they did the worst possible thing and twisted the wires, tinned them and jammed them into a terminal block (and that is before you look at the rubbish quality cable used). This results in areas of high and low resistance at the terminal face (cable is compressed against terminals contact surface) combined with a soft, low melting point conductive material on a connection with potentially high current at mains AC voltage, this is your fire hazard.

The resistance of the tinned wire and bare copper similar and to that end, the tinned wire will not oxidize and the bare copper will. Secondly, the tinned ends are harder than than the bare stranded copper. Thirdly proper mating force should deform the wire slightly to ensure good contact area. High Current? 20A max? Sorry, not see the fire hazard as long as properly rated terminals are used. Can you cite a UL, CSA or other guideline or requirement here?

Putting aside the contact issues over time with the surface of solder, the pressure from the terminator on the conductor will reduce over time due to the solder slowly moving away from the compression it is under increasing the areas of high resistance causing the contact surface to heat up and have less contact with the cable causing a runaway and the eventual fire. Cable diameter and terminal block type makes little difference to this type of fire hazard, in fact very little current is actually needed to cause an issue either and is why it is a massive no no for any electrical engineer or electrician to do this (go ask your lecky if he would tin a wire before he jammed it into a terminal block).

This is applicable to all screw or lug type terminations. Yes, terminal/lug sizing and torque, as well as wire type and a parity do certainly make a difference. You are making a generalization here with no actual specific data regarding the terminals used or the “rubbish” wire.

I can provide pictures of these devices coming out with this fire hazard, but there is little point as there is no argument the main AC supply cable ends are tinned and have been put into screw down terminal blocks.

No please do provide photos…

There are also many documented stories of people burning their houses down with this type of issue (not from hydros), most recently in the 3D printing world were there have been a tremendous amount of incidents due to uneducated people playing with 3D printer kits and not knowing any better.

So now we Are talking about 3D printers where the wire terminates in the extruder head where temperatures are extreme? Yes, the heat is destructive and fires have happened. Sorry, not at all relevant.

But hey, don't take my word on it,

Trust me, I am not ;)

So now you know the actual issue, you can read about how wrong it is to do this yourself, you can have a chat to a independent "qualified" electrician or electrical engineer

Thanks, but my knowledge of both (rather unrelated) fields is fairly well rounded. I have ~35+ years experience in low and high voltage electrical systems in residential, commercial and industrial settings. I am also a lifelong electronics hobbyist, including high voltage tube amps.

Coming full circle, can you cite the UL, CSA or other relevant standard that you are applying here? I am genuinely curious as to the source of your posted opinion on this subject.

 

[cooltowncorals]

I will pitch for Hydros, never had any issues in over a year.

I like that their Wi-Fi Plugs are like 40$ bucks I have 4 so 16 controllable plugs for 160$ bucks. Never had one fail.

I run 3 optical sensors 1 on skimmer 2 for Auto water change and auto top off. Get exactly a 2 gallon water change everyday. I use 3-10$ plugs, 3-30$ 500ml a minute perilistic pumps from Amazon. And one Wi-Fi plug set up. ATO and AWC no backflow issues no suction no gravity issues.

I use it to run an avast auto feeder while at work. Flawless.

I have used it in past to run a light schedule on an old tank with a Nicrew 150

It works with gyres Wi-Fi controller

I feel the value is pretty legitimate

I find the modules on apex silly

I can’t stand that their doser is two heads.

 

[BeanAnimal]

edit time has passed.. but to be clear @Redemptioner:

I am not arguing for tinned wire under screw terminals, it is certainly a debated topic In some circles and between some standards organizations. I think you have latched onto that and applied it here to bludgeon a product that you dislike.

 

[mike550]

I’ve been running Apex for a couple of years now and use it primarily for monitoring. No meaningful closed loop control elements and I certainly wouldn’t trust the DOS or Trident based on what I’ve read here.

I think Apes is a good starter platform but if I had an opportunity for a full replacement, then GHL would probably be the top choice.

 

[UtahReefer]

A3 Apex… Thought about Hydros but Neptune and many more years of experience and a very large user base to tap.

 

[n2585722]

edit time has passed.. but to be clear @Redemptioner:

I am not arguing for tinned wire under screw terminals, it is certainly a debated topic In some circles and between some standards organizations. I think you have latched onto that and applied it here to bludgeon a product that you dislike.

I just got a new disposal today to replace my old one under the sink. Guess what, the leads were tinned stranded wire that were to be connected to solid wires using wire nuts. So this must be a common practice on 120v items. It was a name brand disposal so the practice of tinning stranded wires must be ok.